a very long thread

[delila]

I once stopped off at Living Springs bookstore at their Local Church center (their "Fullerton") on Ball Road in Anaheim.  Among the many Witness Lee and Watchman Nee materials they had, they had a songbook for kids.  One song, was sung to the tune of Jesus Loves me, This I Know, but it went like this:

God is processed, this I know
For The Bible tells me so

The rest of the words escape me, but it went on to tell how God was processed from the Father to the Son to the Holy Spirit.  I don't think it got into God being mingled with the church.  Maybe that was described in their version of The Old Rugged Cross.   Seriously, the children's song was pretty blatant.

This, by the way, is why groups like CRI never took a hard stand against the Assembly.  Compared to groups like the Local Church that are WAY over the line, we looked pretty normal.

Hmmmn, processed eh?  Like cheese.  Interesting.
drj

[Oscar]

I once stopped off at Living Springs bookstore at their Local Church center (their "Fullerton") on Ball Road in Anaheim.  Among the many Witness Lee and Watchman Nee materials they had, they had a songbook for kids.  One song, was sung to the tune of Jesus Loves me, This I Know, but it went like this:

God is processed, this I know
For The Bible tells me so

The rest of the words escape me, but it went on to tell how God was processed from the Father to the Son to the Holy Spirit.  I don't think it got into God being mingled with the church.  Maybe that was described in their version of The Old Rugged Cross.   Seriously, the children's song was pretty blatant.

This, by the way, is why groups like CRI never took a hard stand against the Assembly.  Compared to groups like the Local Church that are WAY over the line, we looked pretty normal.

Hmmmn, processed eh?  Like cheese.  Interesting.
drj

Delila,

When a Local Church member spoke of God being "processed" they were referring to a peculiar form of modalism that they were accused of teaching.

There is a legitimate teaching that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son.  

They, if I recall correctly, taught that God manifested Himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.  ie, one God manifesting Himself in three "modes".  

Witness Lee added an idea he had about the Spirit of God "mingling" with the human spirit...which at the time caused me to think that he believed in God as a "Quaternity"  Father, Son, Holy Spirit, Church.

If that's true, it was heresy, plain and simple.  

But, I am trying to recall information and thoughts from the 60's and 70's.  A little fuzzy there folks.

God bless,
Thomas Maddux

[outdeep]

Local Church of Witness Lee quotes:

"This is Wonderful!  The One is really two!  He is the Son as well as the Father! . . .This word [John 14:8-9] indicates clearly that the Son is the Father.  Yet some twist this word saying the Son is not the Father, but the representative of the Father.  This is twisting.  If you read the context without any twisting, you can realize the Son was the Father there."
The Clear Scriptural Revelation Concerning the Triune God by Witness Lee

"After death and resurrection He became the Spirit breathed into the disciples (John 20:22) . . . The Son became the Spirit for us to drink in as the water of life (7:37-39; 4:10, 14) . . . In the heavens, where man cannot see, God is the Father; when He is expressed among men, He is the Son; and when He comes into men, He is the Spirit."
Concerning the Triune God - the Father, the Son, and the Spirit by Witness Lee

The Father as the inexhaustible source of everything is embodied in the Son . . . In the place where no man can approach Him (1 Timothy 6:16), God is the Father.  When He comes forth to manifest Himself, He is the Son . . . We know the Lord is the Son and that He is also called the Father . . . Now we read that He is the Spirit.  So we must be clear that Christ the Lord is the Spirit, too . . . As the source, God is the Father.  As the expression, He is the Son.  As the transmission, He is the Spirit.  The Father is the source, the Son is the expression, and the Spirit is the transmission, the communion.  This is the triune God . . . "
Combined quotes from The Economy of God and The All-Inclusive Spirit of Christ by Witness Lee

"The Son who prays is the Father who listens . . ."
Concerning the Triune God by Witness Lee

"The Son is the Father, and the Son is also the Spirit."
Concerning the Triune God by Witness Lee

"The Lord will then permeate our body and His glory will saturate our whole being.  This transfiguration is the ultimate consummation of His mingling with our being to the uttermost"
The Economy of God by Witness Lee

"Then we will be fully mingled with God, and this total mingling is God's habitation . . . The New Jerusalem is the total mingling of God with man for His habitation."
The Stream, 14, No 3 (August 1976) by Witness Lee

"The Father is in the Son, the Son is in the Spirit, and the Spirit is now in the Body.  They are now four in one:  the Father, the Son, the Spirit, and the Body."
The Practical Expression of the Church by Witness Lee

"Then the day will come when the Triune God and the resurrected man will be one expression . . ."
The Economy of God by Witness Lee

"Eventually, God will become us."
Life-Study in Genesis, Message Ten by Witness Lee

And you thought our seminars were out there!  I could go on.  In fact, if you knew what I wasn't giving you, you wouldn't let me out the door.  

[Joe Sperling]

Dave----

Thanks for the quotes. I knew and remembered that they were "off-base"--but man, this is heresy pure and simple. I used to have a book called "The Mindbenders" that had a chapter concerning Witness Lee and the Local Church. In fact, I think it may have been the first book to expose them.

--Joe

[outdeep]

That was one of the first books though I think it went out of print for reasons I will explain below.  Latter books included The God Men by Duddy and (the best source other than The Economy of God itself which they started limiting who has access to) was The New Cults by Dr. Walter Martin (actually, the Passentinos, but Dr. M got his name on the cover).

While many similarities to the Assembly were uncanny, there were some differences.  For example, they took the verse "And they had all things common" to extent to their paychecks in their brothers/sisters houses.  As a result, they had lots of $$$ to sue watchdog groups that tried to publish against them.   So, The Mindbenders went down simply because the the group (out of Berkerly, but I forgot their name) didn't have the resources to defend themselves.  The Local Church often put full page ads in University newspapers and the L.A. Times to defend themselves (and give the "we're just normal, thinking, persecuted Christians" slant) when controversy would arise.

Then there's pray-reading - that's a whole other story . . .

[editor]

They, if I recall correctly, taught that God manifested Himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.  ie, one God manifesting Himself in three "modes".  

Witness Lee added an idea he had about the Spirit of God "mingling" with the human spirit...which at the time caused me to think that he believed in God as a "Quaternity"  Father, Son, Holy Spirit, Church.

If that's true, it was heresy, plain and simple.  

But, I am trying to recall information and thoughts from the 60's and 70's.  A little fuzzy there folks.

God bless,
Thomas Maddux

You've got it Tom.

Lee taught modalism, a "processed" God.  He also taught that "The" church----his to be precise---because it is a partaker of the Divine Nature, processed into Christ Himself.

There is One Body, and Christ is the Head, therefore we are His Body.....therefore we are the Christ, now processed into the Church.

Brent

I might also add, due to the title of the thread, and the manner in which we got onto the Local Church, that Sondra vehemently denies ever being a part of Witness Lee's group.

True, her ideas are remarkably similiar to his, her emphasis on the tri-partite nature of man, and the "process" of going from natural to spiritual, her mystical tendencies, etc.   All of that is identical to much of what Lee taught, but it can be found in Watchman Nee's books as well.

Unfortunatley,  as many of us have become aware, there are huge problems with these ideas, not the least of which is the oft realized potential for schism and heresy.

In all fairness, Sondra denies having anything to do with the Local Church.

Brent

[delila]

They, if I recall correctly, taught that God manifested Himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.  ie, one God manifesting Himself in three "modes".  

Witness Lee added an idea he had about the Spirit of God "mingling" with the human spirit...which at the time caused me to think that he believed in God as a "Quaternity"  Father, Son, Holy Spirit, Church.

If that's true, it was heresy, plain and simple.  

But, I am trying to recall information and thoughts from the 60's and 70's.  A little fuzzy there folks.

God bless,
Thomas Maddux

You've got it Tom.

Lee taught modalism, a "processed" God.  He also taught that "The" church----his to be precise---because it is a partaker of the Divine Nature, processed into Christ Himself.

There is One Body, and Christ is the Head, therefore we are His Body.....therefore we are the Christ, now processed into the Church.

Brent

I might also add, due to the title of the thread, and the manner in which we got onto the Local Church, that Sondra vehemently denies ever being a part of Witness Lee's group.

True, her ideas are remarkably similiar to his, her emphasis on the tri-partite nature of man, and the "process" of going from natural to spiritual, her mystical tendencies, etc.   All of that is identical to much of what Lee taught, but it can be found in Watchman Nee's books as well.

Unfortunatley,  as many of us have become aware, there are huge problems with these ideas, not the least of which is the oft realized potential for schism and heresy.

In all fairness, Sondra denies having anything to do with the Local Church.

Brent

1) any group claiming to have a monopoly on God, limits God and therefore should be regarded with great skepticism
2) And yes, Sondra, I too deny having anything to do with the Local Assemblies (associated wt GG) but I was still influenced by the great gg and his teachings and his cronies and his books and his 'traditions' and his thoughts.  But yes, I deny having anything to do with him.  Anything.

drj

[matthew r. sciaini]

Dave:

I believe the name of the Berkeley group that first exposed Witness Lee's group is called Spiritual Counterfeits Project, or SCP for short.

Matt

[editor]

Dave:

I believe the name of the Berkeley group that first exposed Witness Lee's group is called Spiritual Counterfeits Project, or SCP for short.

Matt

Yep, SCP is the one.

I got Mark Campbell's,  Dave Sable's, and Steve Iron's articles from them years ago, when I was starting to figure things out.  They are a great organization.

Brent

[Margaret]

We wondered how you got them!  I wonder how they got them.

[M2]

Even if Sondra is not Witness Lee, her spirituality is akin to that of a Lee disciple.  Most of her non-AB posters are too cowardly to post on her BB, and are the silent majority.  She receives a lot of support via emails from which she then quotes on her BB.  Please, I am not encouraging others to visit her BB, but just wanted to throw in my 2 cents here.  I wonder why her silent majority allow her and Matt to face the foe (sarcasm intended) while they hang out behind the scenes.  Isn't there a verse that says that men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their deeds were evil ??

Marcia

[Oscar]

Hi folks,

I came into Plymouth Brethrenism through the back door back in the 1960's.  I had a summer job with Safeco Insurance, and through a fellow employee I met a bunch of people who had recently left the Witness Lee group.

However, when you lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas.  So, they had imbibed a lot from Lee, and from the guy whose reputation he was using...Watchman Nee.

I read all that W. Nee stuff.  Deeper life teaching pure and simple, much of which Nee got from the Exclusive Brethren and from T. Austin Sparks, who shared many of their ideas.

One of his books was a three volume set called, "The Spiritual Man".  I read it all, and for years it affected my thinking.  

In fact, it is part of the reason I had such a hard time leaving the assembly.  "What if I am just being soulish?"

Finally there came a day of liberation...I decided to trust God instead of trying to spiritually psychoanalize myself.

W. Nee went into the trash along with a bunch of other deeper life stuff.   I don't miss it at all.

God bless,

Thomas Maddux

[jesusfreak]

Most of her non-AB posters are too cowardly to post on her BB, and are the silent majority.  She receives a lot of support via emails from which she then quotes on her BB.  
[...]
I wonder why her silent majority allow her and Matt to face the foe (sarcasm intended) while they hang out behind the scenes.  

Geez, this is *such* an unfair extenuation to make.  I can't believe you feel justified in saying this.  



Regardless of whether or not you agree with what she believes, you can either focus her ideology or attack her.  Why would you possibly choose the latter?  Surely it is not your intention to consider yourself "better"?  Think about your priorities in respect to God......

--
lucas

[Joe Sperling]

Tom-----

Though I haven't thrown all my Watchman Nee books away, I never read them any more. Several times I thought I had finally "seen the light" after reading Watchman Nee. One Book "The Normal Christian Life" influenced me greatly, but I began to feel more and more that I must not be "blessed" as others who really knew the "deeper life", because I just couldn't seem to "get it". I kept waiting for "experiences" to happen to me.

I would try to surrender my life in some "one time lay it all on the altar" manner, only to realize very shortly thereafter, that it didn't "take", so I'd wait until some emotional high hit before I'd give a try again. Needless to say, none of my "lay it all on the line" offerings ever "took" and I was more miserable than ever. So, I have never taken up Watchman Nee's books again. As for Witless Knee, I have never read any of his works.

--Joe

[outdeep]

Joe,

I believe you are describing a very common experience.  One year, when I was single, I took a week off work and drove to Arizona.  I got this motel without a television and spent the time reading "The Normal Christian Life" to try to enter into this life that was being described.  It never attained.

I always would feel my heart lifted when I would read again that I have been "crucified with Christ" and am therefore free from sin from sin ("that's the key!  I got it, right? Just reckon on the facts."), but then a little later I would be instructed to go the way of the cross and "crucify myself" though I could never figure out how to nail down the 2nd hand.  It always seemed to me a continuous flipping between these two ideas and I never felt as if I really got it to work.

Over the years, I have concluded that holiness is probably simpler than we were trying to make it.  Paul's instruction seems to be, "You're a Christian now, so act like one."  Practical experience indicates that holiness is something we work at and make progress in, but will not fully attain in this life.   I think the difference between believers and unbelievers is that, for the Christian, the Holy Spirit puts within us the desire to be holy while many unbelievers fail to see the point (or those who do see the point sees virtue as an end in itself and not a gift of God's grace).  For addictive, life-dominating issues, counseling and help from others is generally in order.

-Dave