Question for the Christian Community

[Joe Sperling]

On the SWTE BB was a short letter from Bob Smith addressed "A question for the Christian Community"--and since it was authored by Bob I felt it was worth addressing. In the letter the following statement appears:

"In the aftermath of the Assembly, many have refused to let go. Rather than seeing God is fulfilling his purpose, there is a cry for blood. Rather than say "Here am I Lord, send me" there is a vow to ensure this type of thing never happens again. Whose life is it anyway?(2Cor. 6:19,20). It is only in God that we discover our origin, our identity, our meaning, our purpose, our significance, and our destiny. Every other path leads to a dead end".

I appreciate the sentiments that Bob is stating. It truly is in God that we find all of our meaning and purpose, identity, meaining, significance, etc... but there is one thing also that isn't mentioned there---
in him we also find our responsibility. David was a man after God's own heart. He was a shepherd of the sheep and kept a close eye on them. The Bible says he killed a lion with his bare hands. So, let's ask ourselves a question: IF a lion or wolf attacked the flock when he was distracted, what would be his response? Would he sit down again and say "Well, it's your flock Lord, whatever is going to happen is going to happen--it's all in your hands"  or would he vow that this was never going to happen to the flock again?? And become MORE vigilant, and MORE watchful for wolves and lions than ever before? What would be the response of a true shepherd?

The cry for blood that is mentioned above is really a cry for repentance. The vow that is being made that this should not happen again is a call to vigilance, watchfulness, and a bringing to accounting for the wrongs done. When we look at the Assembly and it's fall we don't see God failing, we see the free will of man at work, and God's allowance of that will to exist.

Paul declared that after he left that wolves would arise from among them to deceive many.Is that because God cannot protect the sheep? Can't God keep the deceivers out?  God  can do anything!!But he allows free will---so he expects US to keep a guard over the sheep, over the doctrine. He doesn't want us to sit back and say "It's the Lord's church, he'll take care of it"---no, he expects us to be like David and keep and eye over the flock and LEARN from the times the wolves arise, or lions attack from the outside. He expects a vow that "this will not happen again"--he allowed it so that we may learn and help to prevent it from happening again.

After a wolf attacked the flock and David knelt over that dead sheep what do you think his response was?
Was it "Oh well, I'm not going to be bitter about this, let's just let bygones be bygones, and pray that God prevents this from happening again"? Or did his anger arise that someone would hurt one of the sheep? "This is not going to happen again!! Not while I am the shepherd and have all the strength that God has given me to help prevent this!!"

When someone hurts many,many of the Lord's people is he not as a wolf? What should be our response to a wolf? As long as a wolf acts as a wolf we should be very wary, and angry that he is still around, able to hurt more of the sheep. If George repents and turns from his ways, of course we should all receive and forgive him. But as long as he remains a wolf he is a danger to the flock and needs to be pointed out to others.

One last point: What we have suffered at the hands of George does need to be told. A sheep who has never been attacked by a wolf is careless and can suffer under false confidence. But let the same sheep see the wounds inflicted by a wolf on one of the other innocent sheep and they will become far more careful and wary than to approach a wolf. This Bulletin Board is full of people who have been hurt by a wolf and can testify to it. It serves as a warning light to any that may be traveling in that direction, and as a refuge for those who have passed through it already. It exposed and continues to expose a wolf and his pack and calls for repentance. Some may see this as "bitterness" or "refusing to let go" while they sit back and say that the Lord will take care of everything.

The Lord never fails, and he has never let any of us down in any way. He keeps his promises and is faithful when we are unbelieving. But he does ask us to do something---for us to take responsibility---

"Peter, lovest thou me more than these?"
"Yes Lord, you know that I love you!!"
----
"Then sit back, and realize I am in charge of all, don't worry about the wolves, I'll take care of everything".
-----

No, it's  "Feed my sheep"(be a shepherd, watch over the flock and protect them)

[jackhutchinson]

Amen, Joe.

We are not calling for MORE blood to be shed, figuratively speaking.  We are openly exposing those who have ALREADY shed blood under the cover of darkness.  That way we can help prevent MORE blood from being shed in the future.

Jack

[editor]

Amen, Scott.

We are not calling for MORE blood to be shed, figuratively speaking.  We are openly exposing those who have ALREADY shed blood under the cover of darkness.  That way we can help prevent MORE blood from being shed in the future.

Jack

Quite right Jack.

The problem is not that people think God has failed them.  Only a very few think that.  The problem is that The Assembly was an idol to many of us, and we associated it with "what God is doing," and referred to it as "The Work of The Lord," and called the builder of The Assembly,  "The Lord's Servant."

When "what God was doing," turned out to be what George was doing, and then to our horror, WHO George was doing, it shook many people to the core, when they realized their faith had been hijacked.

Yes, God never failed.  The vast majority of people have found new places to fellowship, but it will take years to "get over it."  

People like "Bob Smith,"  (don't you all remember this brother?) who have their faith planted firmly in Christ, who say,  "Lead on O King Eternal,"  aren't the ones who are having trouble.  Bob, and those like him, are the called, chosen and faithful.  The rest of you are vengeful bitter and devastated.  At least that's the way he puts it in his post.  

(This next part simply draws logical conclusions to "bob's" post, with a good deal of moderation thrown in, and not a little courtesy)

I am glad that I am much better than you all are,  as I am definitely called, chosen and faithful, due to the fact that I didn't let bitterness in my life.  The rest of you, who want to warn people, help people, and find answers are just losers I guess.  Thank God I didn't choose to be like you!  George wasn't a wolf,  he was a man who had some struggles.  We should have gone out to him in love, not vengeance.  (the women he abused are not really that important and only distract us and cause needless anger, leave them out of this)

The real wolves are people like Brent, Tom, Steve, Mark, and especially Verne, who uses big words.  Verne, how many times have you cheated on your wife?  Zero? Me too.  However, just because you didn't do what George did doesn't mean you aren't worse than him.  Your attitude is sinful, and your words spew "moderation" and "courtesy."   The fact that you actually live a righteous life, without duplicity isn't important.  Your perceived attitude is what is important, and therefore, like our Dear Brother George, you need a website to expose your attitudinal sins.  You are a wolf, even a snake.

I am glad I'm not like you!

So, let's get this straight.  George is OK, and needs to repent.  The rest of us are not called, chosen and faithful, because we are pointing out how a man who called himself,  The Lord's Servant, lied, stole, and committed immoral acts for decades.  

Makes perfect sense to me.

quote from "bob smith"

In the aftermath of the assembly, many have refused to let go.
Rather than saying God is fulfilling His purpose, there is a cry for
blood. Rather than say "here am I Lord send me," there is a vow to
ensure this type of thing never happens again. Whose life is it
anyway (1Cor 6:19-20)? It is only in God that we discover our
origin, our identity, our meaning, our purpose, our significance, and out
destiny. Every other path leads to a dead end.

Did God fail us in the assembly experience? To the vengeful, bitter,
devastated, the answer is yes. To those who are "the called
according to His purpose" we say lead on O King Eternal.

Brent
BTW, I got this in email,  I am not checking the seagulls website, unless someone can show me that there is something resembling reality there.  I do take their imitation as a compliment, however.

[editor]

Also, with regard to "bob"  (remember him?  Medum height, medium build, brown hair, brown eyes, quiet, carried a bible to meetings,  wore a tie on Sunday, went on outreach...remember "bob?")

Rick Warren is a good author, in "Purpose Driven Life," he also wrote this:

The Purpose Driven Life, by Rick Warren  http://geftakysassembly.com/rickwarren.htm

 

Day 19 Cultivating Community
Italics added by editor

“Cultivating community takes honesty.  You will have to care enough to lovingly speak the truth, even when you would rather gloss over a problem or ignore an issue.  While it is much easier to remain silent when others around us are harming themselves or others with a sinful pattern, it is not the loving thing to do.  Most people have no one in their lives who loves them enough to tell them the truth  (even when it’s painful), so they continue in self-destructive ways.  Often we know what needs to be said to someone, but our fears prevent us from saying anything.  Many fellowships have been sabotaged by fear: No one had the courage to speak up in the group while a member’s life fell apart.

The Bible tells us to “speak the truth in love” (Eph 4:15) because we can’t have community without candor.  Solomon said, “An honest answer is a sign of true friendship.” (Prov 24:26)  Sometimes this means caring enough to lovingly confront one who is sinning or is being tempted to sin.  Paul says, “Brothers and sisters, if someone in your group does something wrong, you who are spiritual should go to that person and gently help make him right again.” (Gal 6:1-2)

Many church fellowships and small groups remain superficial because they are afraid of conflict.  Whenever an issue pops up that might cause tension or discomfort, it is immediately glossed over in order to preserve a false sense of peace.  Mr. “Don’t Rock the Boat” jumps in and tries to smooth everyone’s ruffled feathers, the issue is never resolved, and everyone lives with an underlying frustration.  Everyone knows about the problem, but no one talks about it openly.  This creates a sick environment of secrets where gossip thrives.  Paul’s solution was straightforward: “No more lies, no more pretense.  Tell your neighbor the truth.  In Christ’s body we’re all connected to each other, after all.  When you lie to others, you end up lying to yourself.” (Eph 4:25)

Real fellowship, whether in a marriage, a friendship, or your church, depends on frankness.  In fact, the tunnel of conflict is the passageway to intimacy in any relationship.  Until you care enough to confront and resolve the underlying barriers, you will never grow close to each other.  When conflict is handled correctly, we grow closer to each other by facing and resolving our differences.  The Bible says, “In the end, people appreciate frankness more than flattery.”(Prov 28:23) …

Sadly, thousands of fellowships have been destroyed by a lack of honestly.  Paul had to rebuke the Corinthian church for their passive code of silence in allowing immorality in their fellowship.  Since no one had the courage to confront it, he said, “You must not simply look the other way and hope it goes away on its own.  Bring it out in the open and deal with it…Better devastation and embarrassment than damnation…You pass it off as a small thing, but its anything but that…you shouldn’t act as if everything is just fine when one of your Christian companions is promiscuous or crooked, is flip with God or rude to friends, gets drunk or becomes greedy and predatory.  You can’t just go along with this, treating it as acceptable behavior.  I’m not responsible for what the outsiders do, but don’t we have some responsibility for those within our community of believers?” (1Cor 5:3-12)

Cultivating community takes humility.  Self-importance, smugness, and stubborn pride destroy fellowship faster than anything else.  Pride builds walls between people; humility builds bridges.  Humility is the oil that smoothes and soothes relationships.  That’s why the Bible says, “clothe yourselves with humility toward one another.” (1Pet 5:5b)  The proper dress for fellowship is a humble attitude.

The rest of that verse says, “…because, God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.” (1Pet 5:5c)  This is the other reason we need to be humble: Pride blocks Gods grace in our lives, which we must have in order to grow, change, heal, and help others.

Editor’s note:  This quote is both beautiful and true.  Had this been done 29 years ago, much of the pain and sorrow that defines the Assembly today would not exist. However, fear and darkness have been reigning for the last 3 decades, and the problems and denials have deep, well-fed roots. The prayer for this website is that God would give us the courage to honestly, truthfully, tell the church. Many may cry, "but you should go to the person first!"  Yes, this is true, however, this has been done many times by many people, and the Assembly leadership refuses to be entreated. They put out of the church those few who have the courage to say something.  They simply won't allow the truth to be told. Yet still, repentance is possible, and God still extends His Grace to those who will hear.  I believe that the door to repentance was wide open 2 years ago, more than halfway shut in the summer of 2001, and that it is now shut, with a sliver of light coming in under the door.  I entreat my brethren, “Behold, I stand at the door and knock…”

[M2]

I do not know who Bob Smith is, but he does have potential to be a LB. I wonder if some ex-LBs and present-LBs want us to "get on with our lives" and leave off this discussion with assembly matters, because they are avoiding facing up to their involvement in promoting the Geftakys system.

I want to add my Amen to the other posts on this thread.

Lord bless,
Marcia

[editor]

I do not know who Bob Smith is, but he does have potential to be a LB. I wonder if some ex-LBs and present-LBs want us to "get on with our lives" and leave off this discussion with assembly matters, because they are avoiding facing up to their involvement in promoting the Geftakys system.

I want to add my Amen to the other posts on this thread.

Lord bless,
Marcia

I don't think he is an LB.  LB's are courageous folk,  bold in the faith.  If they were here, they would use their real names.   Bob is from Canada, I do know that.  However, past that I don't know who he is, but he can't be an LB.  LB's wouldn't post anonymously, they are bold as lions.

Bob, please tell us who you are.  I mean, shoot!  I have my phone number on my signature line.  Can't you at least give us a name?

John doe

[Tony]

   Dear Joe,

   I add an Amen to your post!    I especially appreciate your approach to addressing Bob's  inquiry.st


Joe said:
"The cry for blood that is mentioned above is really a cry for repentance. The vow that is being made that this should not happen again is a call to vigilance, watchfulness, and a bringing to accounting for the wrongs done. When we look at the Assembly and it's fall we don't see God failing, we see the free will of man at work, and God's allowance of that will to exist."

   Good points and well stated.   Also we should be able to recognize that these points are being made by imperfect people who are capable of letting  emotions cloud the sincerity of their desire to see repentence and not blood.   But, one would have to be asleep not to see that the majority of things stated are clearly in a desire to welcome those who would repent.  


Joe said
"so he expects US to keep a guard over the sheep, over the doctrine. He doesn't want us to sit back and say "It's the Lord's church, he'll take care of it"---no, he expects us to be like David and keep and eye over the flock and LEARN from the times the wolves arise, or lions attack from the outside. He expects a vow that "this will not happen again"--he allowed it so that we may learn and help to prevent it from happening again."

   For those who are called to do so (which is anyone with Truth and conviction), it would be wrong not to act and expose these wolves.

Joe said:

"What should be our response to a wolf? As long as a wolf acts as a wolf we should be very wary, and angry that he is still around, able to hurt more of the sheep."

   I have read and heard far too much to be willing to ignore the possibility that this poison is still out there luring unsuspecting or deceived little lambs.

Joe said:
" If George repents and turns from his ways, of course we should all receive and forgive him. But as long as he remains a wolf he is a danger to the flock and needs to be pointed out to others."

   Does anyone not understand the above statement?


One last point: What we have suffered at the hands of George does need to be told. A sheep who has never been attacked by a wolf is careless and can suffer under false confidence. But let the same sheep see the wounds inflicted by a wolf on one of the other innocent sheep and they will become far more careful and wary than to approach a wolf. This Bulletin Board is full of people who have been hurt by a wolf and can testify to it. It serves as a warning light to any that may be traveling in that direction, and as a refuge for those who have passed through it already. It exposed and continues to expose a wolf and his pack and calls for repentance. Some may see this as "bitterness" or "refusing to let go" while they sit back and say that the Lord will take care of everything.

The Lord never fails, and he has never let any of us down in any way. He keeps his promises and is faithful when we are unbelieving. But he does ask us to do something---for us to take responsibility---

"Peter, lovest thou me more than these?"
"Yes Lord, you know that I love you!!"
----
"Then sit back, and realize I am in charge of all, don't worry about the wolves, I'll take care of everything".
-----

No, it's  "Feed my sheep"(be a shepherd, watch over the flock and protect them)

Well done!

--Tony

[retread]

I do not know who Bob Smith is, but he does have potential to be a LB. I wonder if some ex-LBs and present-LBs want us to "get on with our lives" and leave off this discussion with assembly matters, because they are avoiding facing up to their involvement in promoting the Geftakys system.

I want to add my Amen to the other posts on this thread.

Lord bless,
Marcia

I don't think he is an LB.  LB's are courageous folk,  bold in the faith.  If they were here, they would use their real names.   Bob is from Canada, I do know that.  However, past that I don't know who he is, but he can't be an LB.  LB's wouldn't post anonymously, they are bold as lions.

Bob, please tell us who you are.  I mean, shoot!  I have my phone number on my signature line.  Can't you at least give us a name?

John doe

Dear John,

And all this time, I thought that he might be the Bob Smith from Atascadero.

Niaga Daerter Doe

[moonflower2]

One last point: What we have suffered at the hands of George does need to be told. A sheep who has never been attacked by a wolf is careless and can suffer under false confidence. But let the same sheep see the wounds inflicted by a wolf on one of the other innocent sheep and they will become far more careful and wary than to approach a wolf. This Bulletin Board is full of people who have been hurt by a wolf and can testify to it. It serves as a warning light to any that may be traveling in that direction, and as a refuge for those who have passed through it already. It exposed and continues to expose a wolf and his pack and calls for repentance. Some may see this as "bitterness" or "refusing to let go" while they sit back and say that the Lord will take care of everything.

Amen, Joe!

[brian]

i want to add my voice of agreement to what is being expressed on this thread. i think a critical mass of outside criticism is causing us to ponder who we are as a community. granted, a bb is a very loose community, but it is a community. yes, there is some anger here, but if there was no bb to post it on, would there still be anger? YES! its a very predictable response to having ones trust and faith violated, along with the trust and faith of so many others that we care about. its the only healthy response, in my opinion. for those of us with any compassion left, it would be impossible to sit by idly and let george and those who still believe in him set up others for the same betrayal! and then there are those who do not yet realize how deeply they have been betrayed, and want to hang onto parts of what george and the assembly taught them, and teach those things to others. all the sincerity in the world is not going to make what they believe in any more healthy.   but having a place where they can read these things being openly discussed (if they are not ready to participate) can help, on occasion.

its also true that for some people, its much harder to handle the hurt and betrayal of others than their own. for instance, verne can be very harsh in what he posts sometimes, but that harshness is triggered when he sees people being unjustly accused, or when he gets a rumor of more innocents being led astray. you know why? BECAUSE HE CARES! a lot! and that is really obvious to anyone who wants to be reasonable on the subject. and although we may not all express it the same way, the vast majority of us are here for the same reason. because we know that what we went through was serious enough that it matters whether it happens to others all over again or not!

but there is more to this community than just that. i think we also recognize something in the people here that we would have a hard time finding at the local church, and that is others who know what its like to have been under the kind of system we have been under. while moving on is very important, its also impossible without figuring out what one is moving on from. comparing notes is invaluable in the aftermath of situations like this, as many of us have found.

sharing stressful experiences creates a bond, to state another obvious and well-proven fact. and one adjective i think we can all agree would describe life in the assembly is: STRESSFUL! to an extreme degree, quite often. cults exploit that bond by severing meaningful contact with those who do not conform, shunning them, and this is a harsh and very effective punishment. but i have observed that when we can interact with those we once shared that bond with who have also left, it can counteract the effects of shunning, especially when a lot of people leave at the same time. this is a very helpful thing.

those who take a few of the more extreme posts on here and try to use them to characterize this board clearly have their own reasons for trying to be misleading (if not downright deceptive). some of them may be sincerely deceived themselves. the ultimate goal of those lobbing criticisms is to disrupt the dynamic of this community, which includes all of the things i've been talking about in this post, and others have been talking about on this thread. but one thing we are doing more and more, and i love to see it, is responding by clearly stating who we are and why we are here, rather than trying to box all the shadowy accusations. boxing shadows is a pointless and highly frustrating exercise, and noone ever wins (including the shadows). what is especially disturbing about some of the most recent attacks on this board and those posting on it, is the willingness of those on the eagle site to concentrate their heaviest public attacks on the most sensitive wounds in some people's lives. and there are plenty of wounds for them to choose from among those who have been subjected to the assembly's loving caresses. i think an effective way to counteract this is to support each other, through posts, email, phone calls. we have been doing this all along, but perhaps we could make an extra emphasis out of checking in with those who the loving eagles start mocking and pecking on to make sure they are holding up ok. that way, without rewarding their despicable attempts to get people's attention by hammering on old wounds, we can turn it into something positive. i'm only putting this out there because i am becoming convinced that they are not going to just go away as long as there is someone they can pick a fight with, so i'm trying to think of ways to minimize their ability to actually hurt people without taking up shadowboxing.

brian

[psalm51]

I think "Bob's" opinions would have some credability if we knew:
1. his real name.
2. what assembly he was in and for how long.
3. if he was in leadership.
4. if he has a family, did he or other family members suffer estrangement, loss, and/or sorrow because of assembly "policies".
5. whether George ever stayed in his home, etc. (ie. did he have personal contact with him on a regular basis.)
Well, Bob, will you answer these? If not, why not?
Pat Mathews
former worker
wife of leading brother
hosted  George twice a year for over 14 years.
worked in George's library for two weeks in 1996.
estranged from parents and sibling for over ten years because of George and Betty. Strained relationships until 2003.
in since 1976 (Omaha, Norfolk, Champaign)
out in 2003

[M2]

I think "Bob's" opinions would have some credability if we knew:
1. his real name.
2. what assembly he was in and for how long.
3. if he was in leadership.
4. if he has a family, did he or other family members suffer estrangement, loss, and/or sorrow because of assembly "policies".
5. whether George ever stayed in his home, etc. (ie. did he have personal contact with him on a regular basis.)
Well, Bob, will you answer these? If not, why not?
Pat Mathews
former worker
wife of leading brother
hosted  George twice a year for over 14 years.
worked in George's library for two weeks in 1996.
estranged from parents and sibling for over ten years because of George and Betty. Strained relationships until 2003.
in since 1976 (Omaha, Norfolk, Champaign)
out in 2003

Dear Mrs. Mathews,

Personally, I do not think that the knowledge of that info about Bob would give his opinions more credibility. However I do agree that it would help me to know where his sympathies lie, and whether or not he really is an honest inquirer OR whether he has another agenda.

Last night I carefully re-read all of his previous posts on this BB. I concluded that he is definitely anti-Brent/Verne. I also re-affirmed my opinion that he asks 'leading' questions in order to box in the discussion. And he removed snippits from the Rick Ross site which gave the snippits a whole different meaning when taken out of the context of the entire article (BTW I noticed this at the time he did it, and at that time I went to the Rick Ross site and read the snippits in their context). So I "think" he is not sympathetic. He makes concluding statements that appear to summarize what this BB stands for, but upon closer examination are sometimes unbiblical and reflect his own point of view. He has great potential to be a LB if he isn't already one. Since Bob has not revealed his identity, all I can do is speculate at this point. He has avoided queries that I have presented to him on this BB, so it isn't like I didn't make the effort.

DISCLAIMER: Bob Smith has made some accurate statements on this BB. Maybe he is a wannabee 'honest inquirer' but the assembly influence is still too strong. So I am and was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Lord bless,
Marcia

P.S. my email address is on my signature line.

[M2]

....
what is especially disturbing about some of the most recent attacks on this board and those posting on it, is the willingness of those on the eagle site to concentrate their heaviest public attacks on the most sensitive wounds in some people's lives. and there are plenty of wounds for them to choose from among those who have been subjected to the assembly's loving caresses. i think an effective way to counteract this is to support each other, through posts, email, phone calls. we have been doing this all along, but perhaps we could make an extra emphasis out of checking in with those who the loving eagles start mocking and pecking on to make sure they are holding up ok. that way, without rewarding their despicable attempts to get people's attention by hammering on old wounds, we can turn it into something positive. i'm only putting this out there because i am becoming convinced that they are not going to just go away as long as there is someone they can pick a fight with, so i'm trying to think of ways to minimize their ability to actually hurt people without taking up shadowboxing.

brian

Brian,

I say Amen to your entire post. For an unbeliever-according-to-Matt, you have shown a lot more wisdom and compassion than some believers. I do not remember disagreeing with anything that you have posted, even in my fence-sitting days.

From what I have extracted above, I can see that you have a true shepherd's heart.

Lord bless,
Marcia Marinier aka MGov aka M2 aka MM
former Ottawa assemblyite

[vernecarty]

When "what God was doing," turned out to be what George was doing, and then to our horror, WHO George was doing,

 

i want to add my voice of agreement to what is being expressed on this thread. i think a critical mass of outside criticism is causing us to ponder who we are as a community.

brian

Au Contraire mon ami...the harder they come...the harder they fall! Boy I really like that Brian guy...! He the man!!
Verne  

[Joe Sperling]

I will try not to reply to things posted on the SWTE website, but I had to reply to one more thing. I am amazed that after my post and the replies to it that the administrator over there seemed to miss the whole point. She has centered on one thing alone: the word shepherd. She states that because the word shepherd is never used to describe a believer, then the Lord has not made us shepherds!!

Yet the Bible does call Christians "fathers"(see 1 John)
which is a far more endearing term than Shepherd. If one is to be as a father to other christians, this is a term that implies even more watchfulness than a shepherd possesses.  But I don't really want to argue over words. The Bible clearly implies that we are to watch over one another, guard one another and protect one another AS a shephed would do. When Jesus says "feed my sheep" he is saying to follow his example and be as a shepherd is. If one wants to disregard the whole message of the post because you can't find a christian referred to as a shepherd, then fine. But if one wants to you can simply go to any thesaurus on line and look up the word "pastor"---a direct synonym is "shepherd"--a pastor is a minister. Jesus says that "he that will be chief among you let him be your minister."  1Pet. 5:4 says "And when the CHIEF shepherd appears ye shall receive a crown of life... "  being "chief" implies other shepherds under him.

I am going to make the utmost attempt not to visit the other BB again and to refrain from further replies.
Being human, I have this awful weakness called "curiosity" which leads me back to read what they have to say , but I find that often after visiting I feel sad and discouraged at the lack of real openess there.

take care everyone   --Joe