Samuel

[editor]

I am interested to know what Tim G is doing now-a-days. His name has not been mentioned at all. Has he repented re. his silence the DG issue? Is he still holding to the 'superhuman' Christ belief? and there's more of course.

Marcia

Tim, as of a month ago, was selling RV's and Motorhomes.  He is trying to keep a low profile, I am sure.

No, he has not repented any more than he did back last January, when things were tough.  He is in a tight spot.  If he repents and tells the truth, then his chances of getting money from saints goes down.  If he continues to lie about his knowledge and complicity, then he is taken to task here and with others.  That makes him a liability for the new generation of formeryetseeminglyreformedgeftakysservants. (fysrgs)

His best course of action is to take it easy and trust that people have short memories and that "new ones," come into fellowship.  As I said before, I predict a spectacular end to Tim and David, should they try to re-ignite the Torch of the Testimony.  

On another note, I am really praying for George to repent.  I see this as the key to allow the rest to go free.  Imagine George telling the truth about the women, the money, the lust for power, the plagiarism.  Imagine the burden that would be lifted off of him, and the darkness that would be removed from his family.  Please pray for this.

Verne may be right, but I hope he's not.  While George is still alive, the story is not over, and God can save at the eleventh hour.

Brent

Brent

[vernecarty]

The reason we got into trouble in the assemblies is that we failed to simply read and believe our Bibles. The reason so many are still in serious trouble is that they will not read and believe their Bibles.
Samuel Ochenjele's contention that a man like George Geftakys is "God's annointed" is irresponsible and dangerous. His comparison to Saul flies in the face of all logic and betrays a condition of mind far more  influenced by Geftakys than he is prepared to acknowledge. I am surprised that he did not compare him instead to David. Of course David's immediate repentance on being confronted simply does not lend itself well to any such analogy. George's steadfast refusal to repent, not so much his wicked conduct, is in my view what absolutely strips him of any remote benefit of the doubt as regards his condition before the Almighty. Any true child of God would have long ago repented in dust and ashes. Even if we were to accept this analogy, no one who is a careful reader of the Scripture will conclude that because Saul was annointed he was God's choice.  He was what the people wanted and so was what God gave them. Viewed in that light the rise of George Geftakys has sobering implications. Balaam was apparently annointed yet had to be Divinely restrained as he assayed to curse the people of God and all for filthy lucre's sake. His status as a prophet did not preclude his coming to an ignominious end. Those of you looking to types ought to be more careful. The course of Saul's life makes that clear and at the end the prophet Samuel was told in no uncertain terms that he was wasting his time grieving for Saul - God had rejected him.
Who among  us is prepared to argue that God has not clearly rejected George Geftakys?
The analogy faces its stiffest challenge in that while Samuel the man of God was instructed to annoint Saul, who of God's recognized servants has taken responsibility for George's self-proclaimed apostleship? The evidence in fact shows that all his life he has been contemptuous and rejecting of constituted spiritual authority! The evidence is conclusive that this man lived a wicked and debauched life before he gained notoriety as a result of the assemblies he started, and lived a wicked and debauched life during the time the assemblies were in existence. Anyone designating a man like George Geftakys as ever havng been the Lord's servant is guilty of either willfull deception and duplicity, or a level of spiritual and intellectual obtuseness worthy of nothing short of withering contempt. Anyone making such a claim is a spiritual dunce, plain and simple!
Those of us making the case that these men are perpetuating what was obviously a system steeped in wickedness must focus on this point. Can a dirty vessel produce clean water? Those of you asssaying to call light what God has clearly called darkness are playing with fire.
Those of you sitting on the fence on this issue are going to have to make up your minds. Your claim of ignorance of what you were involved with before all this came to light no longer carries exculpatory weight. What more does God have to do to make His own assessment clear?
MarK Miller, I love you dear brother but I am particularly apalled at your own continued failure in leadership in all this. I question whether you truly understand the enormity of what George Geftakys has done to the flock of God and your own culpability as one of his chief enablers. The remainder of your leadership capital should have been generously spent seeing to it that the remainder of that flock was committed to the care of  proven faithful men, and more importantly to see to it that they were shielded from further harm by all those who like yourself had clearly been compromised in your integrity as a result of your association with Geftakys. I want to say this in love, Mark, the current situation in my view has added insult to injury. You should correct  it if you can. May God give you wisdom as you seek to honor Him.
Verne

[vernecarty]

formeryetseeminglyreformedgeftakysservants. (fysrgs)


Brent

A good dsignation that - F-Y-S-R-G-S
Sadly, small tip of the icebergs
Whch will come into view
As God shows Himself true
And supposed repentace is D-Y-B-I-R-G-S

(Doyoubelieveinreformedgeftakysservants?)  
Verne

[amycahill]

Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;  But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:  I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;   When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.   Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:  For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord:  They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.  Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.  

While I see nothing wrong with praying for George's repentance(I have), every Scritpurally well-taught child of God must be prepared to understand that there are some for whom repentance is no longer possible...this is an inescapable if sobering truth...
Verne

This I must take issue with.  I can't reference the verse you quote here in context because you don't give the passage, but the teaching that "some are beyond repentance", is, IMHO, an Assembly teaching.  Certainly the way it was used was an Assembly teaching.  I believe repentance is possible all the way up to the day, the moment, we die -- it just gets more unlikely the longer we persist in our sins.  So, that should give us hope for George and Betty if we truly seek their repentance in much prayer.

I also believe they will eat fully of the fruit of the seeds they have sown.

[vernecarty]

Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;  But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:  I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;   When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.   Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:  For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord:  They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.  Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.  

While I see nothing wrong with praying for George's repentance(I have), every Scritpurally well-taught child of God must be prepared to understand that there are some for whom repentance is no longer possible...this is an inescapable if sobering truth...
Verne

This I must take issue with.  I can't reference the verse you quote here in context because you don't give the passage, but the teaching that "some are beyond repentance", is, IMHO, an Assembly teaching.  Certainly the way it was used was an Assembly teaching.  I believe repentance is possible all the way up to the day, the moment, we die -- it just gets more unlikely the longer we persist in our sins.  So, that should give us hope for George and Betty if we truly seek their repentance in much prayer.

I also believe they will eat fully of the fruit of the seeds they have sown.

The reference is Proverbs 1:24-28.

Be it resolved:
The Bible teaches that it is possible for one to arrive at a spiritual state where repentance is no longer possible.

Assembly teaching or Scriptural truth?

I can think of a few Biblical examples that should help our thinking. I give them without elaboration.


 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.  

Repentance is a gift of God -1 Timothy 2:25)
Remember the dramatic denoument of "That Hideous Strength?"
when one of the evil protagonists, I believe it was the psychologist, at the end saw with absolute and crystalline clarity, the awful lie of all that he had embraced, and in an insane fit of unrepentant pride, violently rejected truth and knowingly embraced darkness...to the very end...

Be not deceived God is not mocked...
We need to preach it...we need to teach it.
For all of us, it is a matter of life and death.

Any person alive during the great tribulation who takes the mark of the beast and worships his image is beyond repentance.
(artistic liberties of the "left behind" series notwithstanding)
Scripture clearly teaches that these people are irrecoverably lost. These are in my view the exceptions that prove the rule. There are more...you find them....

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Revelation 14:9-11

These are in my opinion the scariest verses in the entire Bible. It will not be my fate, praise His glorious Name!
Is repentance always possible for everyone under all circumstances? You decide!

Verne

p.s. It is I believe the reason the Scripture says today, if you will hear His voice, harden not your hearts...the implication is clear is it not? tomorrow you may not....

[amycahill]

Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;  But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:  I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;   When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.   Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:  For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord:  They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.  Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.  

While I see nothing wrong with praying for George's repentance(I have), every Scritpurally well-taught child of God must be prepared to understand that there are some for whom repentance is no longer possible...this is an inescapable if sobering truth...
Verne

This I must take issue with.  I can't reference the verse you quote here in context because you don't give the passage, but the teaching that "some are beyond repentance", is, IMHO, an Assembly teaching.  Certainly the way it was used was an Assembly teaching.  I believe repentance is possible all the way up to the day, the moment, we die -- it just gets more unlikely the longer we persist in our sins.  So, that should give us hope for George and Betty if we truly seek their repentance in much prayer.

I also believe they will eat fully of the fruit of the seeds they have sown.

The referece is Proverbs 1:24-28.

Be it resolved:
The Bible teaches that it is possible for one to arrive at a spiritual state where repentance is no longer possible.

Assembly teaching or Scriptural truth?

I can think of a few Biblical examples that should help our thinking. I give them without elaboration.


 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.  

Repentance is a gift of God -1 Timothy 2:25)
Remember the dramatic denoument of "That Hideous Strength?"
when one of the evil protagonists, I believe it was the psychologist, at the end saw with absolute and crystalline clarity, the awful lie of all that he had embraced, and in an insane fit of unrepentant pride, violently rejected truth and knowingly embraced darkness...to the very end...

Be not deceived God is not mocked...
We need to preach it...we need to teach it.
For all of us, it is a matter of life and death.

Any person alive during the great tribulation who takes the mark of the beast and worships his image is beyond repentance.
(artistic liberties of the "left behind" series notwithstanding)
Scripture clearly teaches that these people are irrecoverably lost. These are in my view the exceptions that prove the rule. There are more...you find them....

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Revelation 14:9-11

These are in my opinion the scariest verses in the entire Bible. It will not be my fate, praise His glorious Name!
Is repentance always possible for everyone under all circumstances? You decide!

Verne

p.s. It is I believe the reason the Scripture says today, if you will hear His voice, hareden not your hearts...the implication is clear is it not? tomorrow you may not....

I still disagree with some of your points, Verne, and here's why:

The context of Proverbs 1 is Wisdom personified (which some have chosen to regard as Jesus Christ).  If you believe that, then He Himself is warning us with the verses you speak of.  However, I don't believe these verses necessarily refer to FINAL IMPENITENCE -- only that there will be severe consequences for not listening to God when it is a time a grace and mercy.

Second, with Esau, Esau lost out on his specific inheritance, his birthright due him as the eldest son, and was not able to gain it back.  We have no idea where he ended up eternally.  All we know is that he lost his birthright and was not able to gain it back through any amount of repentance, NOT that he had passed beyond repentance and was "unsaved."  I feel, taken in context, that these verses refer only to his birthright and nothing else.

What I will buy is that you can deliberately and with malice aforethought reject God, even AFTER you have received grace to eternal life.  Die in that state and you'll go to Hell.  Catholics call it "mortal sin" but provide a way out if you repent and confess.   Catholics also define the "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit" as the ultimate refusal of the knowledge of God, to not repent, to reject forgiveness and salvation.  THAT leads to the FINAL IMPENITENCE and ETERNAL LOSS you're talking about.

However, we don't know the state of another person's heart.  We don't know the inside of George and Betty's hearts, not really.  While they're alive, there's hope for repentance.  It is never too late to repent.

Amy

[amycahill]

Any person alive during the great tribulation who takes the mark of the beast and worships his image is beyond repentance.
(artistic liberties of the "left behind" series notwithstanding)
Scripture clearly teaches that these people are irrecoverably lost. These are in my view the exceptions that prove the rule. There are more...you find them....

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Revelation 14:9-11

These are in my opinion the scariest verses in the entire Bible. It will not be my fate, praise His glorious Name!
Is repentance always possible for everyone under all circumstances? You decide!

Verne

Hi, Verne!  Just wanted to make one more comment on the Revelation verses you quoted.  I agree with your position on the mark of the beast (even though, sitting here, we can only speculate what that "mark" will be).  HOWEVER, taking that mark and choosing to worship the beast STILL is a deliberate, knowing act.  You choose your fate.  I think it still falls under the conditions I set out.

God bless,
Amy

[vernecarty]

I still disagree with some of your points, Verne, and here's why:

The context of Proverbs 1 is Wisdom personified (which some have chosen to regard as Jesus Christ).  If you believe that, then He Himself is warning us with the verses you speak of.  However, I don't believe these verses necessarily refer to FINAL IMPENITENCE -- only that there will be severe consequences for not listening to God when it is a time a grace and mercy.

Second, with Esau, Esau lost out on his specific inheritance, his birthright due him as the eldest son, and was not able to gain it back.  We have no idea where he ended up eternally.  All we know is that he lost his birthright and was not able to gain it back through any amount of repentance, NOT that he had passed beyond repentance and was "unsaved."  I feel, taken in context, that these verses refer only to his birthright and nothing else.

What I will buy is that you can deliberately and with malice aforethought reject God, even AFTER you have received grace to eternal life.  Die in that state and you'll go to Hell.  Catholics call it "mortal sin" but provide a way out if you repent and confess.   Catholics also define the "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit" as the ultimate refusal of the knowledge of God, to not repent, to reject forgiveness and salvation.  THAT leads to the FINAL IMPENITENCE and ETERNAL LOSS you're talking about.

However, we don't know the state of another person's heart.  We don't know the inside of George and Betty's hearts, not really.  While they're alive, there's hope for repentance.  It is never too late to repent.

Amy

Points very well taken Amy. Christ, of course, is the personification of the wisdom the Proverbs verses refer to.

I agree the failure to find repentance in this case does refer to Esau's recklesss discarding of his inheritance. I would point out that the writer to the Hebrews in adducing this incident uses the analogy of failure to find repentance in reference to the excercise of faith so I think the principle is applicable, i.e. there are instances in which repentance cannot be found. I find it interesting that some translate "No way to change one's mind"

It is possible to make choices from which there can be no retreat!

In fact, lulling the impenitent into the often false and fatal presumtion that there is always tomorrow, is one of the most potent weapons the enemy employs to seal the fate of the lost.
Think about it...

Romans one also has some interesting commentary on this condition and suggests it is ultimately an act of God in permitting the natural wicked bent of the human heart and mind to have free reign as a result of a willful rejection of the truth that God reveals. I know we may have a fundamental difference of philosphy in this regard but Amy I do believe there are people about whom we can truly say "God gave them up".

Second, with Esau, Esau lost out on his specific inheritance, his birthright due him as the eldest son, and was not able to gain it back.  We have no idea where he ended up eternally

You may be right about this. However for one whom God says explicitly that He "hates", one has to wonder (I know all about the theological handstands some do around the word "hate", but still, it does make one wonder...
You have given me food for thought though. Great post!
Verne

p.s. that beast business is pretty scary isn't it? Remember those with the mark will still be alive, so the general notion that "while there is life there is hope" clearly would not apply here.
I think the frightful truth will be that those with the mark will no longer even want to repent! I cannot imagine a more frightful condition than that of wanting to repent but not being able to (Essau'sproblem?). what a remarkable thing it is to know  ( 1 John 3:14) that one has eternal life! marvellous grace!!

p.s.s

What I will buy is that you can deliberately and with malice aforethought reject God, even AFTER you have received grace to eternal life.

Can you reference some Scriptural passages which you believe support this viewpoint?



Hannah Whitall Smith tells the story of the young man who lived a wild and profligate life and was marvellously saved at a revival meeting. When queried by amazed observers regarding the manner of his salvation. He would reply:
I did my part.
And God did His part.
When asked, and what pray tell, good sir, was your part?
He replied:
My part was to run away from Him as fast as my legs could carry me.
His part was to pursue until He caught me...  
Marvellous grace of our loving Lord...!