Am I Alone In My Emotional Struggles?

[Mark C.]

Hi Heather
  Thank you so much for your thoughtful response.  I was thinking that your post was "boxy" and I now understand better what you were getting at.
  I certainly do not disparage counseling, but am very concerned about the bias of the counsellor as I don't believe humans can really achieve neutrality; their world view will affect their advice.
  Seminary instruction has changed a great deal and counseling enters into a major part of their training now.  I have read books by Pastors regarding how to combine theology with counseling, and these authors understand their limitations.  This kind of counseling doesn't treat deep pathologies, but more day to day kind of emotional stress.
  I think Brian Steele could bring some helpful insight into this discussion as he went to "Wellspring", which is a treatment center run by Christians who have been in cults/abusive churches.
  Have you read the book, "The Subtle Power Of Spiritual Abuse"?  It is written by a psyche. MD and a Pastor and it is very interesting to follow their interaction.
   Terms used in Psyche. can find interesting parallels in Biblical phrases.  An example would be denial (not just a river in Egypt ) and the Biblical term lying.  I think that moral issues and emotional issues are inseparable when dealing with certain problems.
  Obviously, treating bed wetting, etc. is not a moral issue; however marriage counselling would have to address morals.  I know of one bro. who went to a psyche. and was told his problem was guilt and he needed to just feel free to violate his conscience and do something "sinful".  He was encouraged to "find a girl", and offered a cigarette by the counsellor; this was supposed to be treatment!
   I don't think the Dave Hunt book was just negative as he was looking at the facts of the evolution of Psyche. science.  I would agree making sweeping generalizations from his book is in error, but dismissing all of his concerns as simply an effort to demonize all Psyche. is probably wrong as well.
   Thanks for helping me think through these things and I'm sure others are finding the topic helpful as well.  Please check out my post in "Wounded Pilgrims" thread as it has some bearing on our discussion on emotional health.
                                       God Bless,  Mark  

[Stillwater]

Mark,

  It seems to me that we've pretty much reached a point of resolution here--or at least agreeing to disagree slightly.   I would sum up my opinion as follows:

Do not discourage Christians from getting needed help. If someone wants to see a counselor, we should support them in finding an ethical counselor. The person knows whether or not he or she needs counseling. We can't judge that from the outside. Too many Christians were denied help in the Assembly, such as when Susan McCarthy commented that married couples were denied marital counseling and forced to try to figure things out for themselves, resulting in continued bloody faces for the wives--or Eulaha, who was prevented from looking more deeply into her emotional struggles by the anti-psychology teaching (see MY STORY by Eulaha--you may have to email her for a copy).

If you choose to consult a psychiatrist, psychologist, mental health counselor, or social worker, ASK about their views first. As a Christian, you may want to save yourself some trouble and just go to a Christian counselor to begin with, or you may prefer the freedom of a counselor trained in secular methods. Sounds like your friend ended up with a lousy counselor--he should've checked 'em out first.

I'm still in the midst of reading "Spiritual Abuse." Here's a quote from the book:
"You were asked to leave your church for sexually molesting a teenager. Have you gotten counseling?"
"Yes," was the reply. "I've been seeing someone for several months."
"Do they know how to address sexual issues?"
"Oh yes. They've had quite a bit of training."
"Then this person is a counselor?"
"You mean a REAL counselor?"
"Yes. Are they a counselor trained in sexual issues?"
"Well no, not really--it's a pastor. But he's read a lot of books. . . ."  

Have a good day!

Heather

[Mark C.]

Hi again Heather!
  Yes, I would agree with your summation of our conversation here.  Finding a good counselor may be as difficult as finding a good church for some, but possibly I have reacted too strongly to the past negative experiences I mentioned. (I also have listened to Dr. Laura, on occasion, on the radio and she can really bring out some negative things happening in the world of psychology. )
  Great quote from the book "Spiritual Abuse"!  There are certainly some pastors to avoid in counseling as well!  I had several negative "pastor" experiences when I first left.  One pastor showed up at my house unannouned to "give me "the word" because he thought I had just come out of a cult and needed to be saved!  He wouldn't listen to anything I had to say. (some of my experiences re. the first couple of years I was out of the Assm. are related in the 2nd Enroth book of abuse called, "Recovering From Churches That Abuse."  I'm in the chapt. on the Assembly).
   This is why I believe in psychological or theological counseling for Assembly folks the counselor needs to know how to deal with excultists.  Obviously, I'm talking about recovery issues from the group.  Other deeper pathologies that are present may need other treatment, but there's no one that knows an Assemblyite like one who has been there.
   It seems to me that as fellow Christians we can minister to one another.  As I mentioned before, the Bible commands us to "weep with one another", comfort one another, etc."   I'm not suggesting we take the place of trained professionals, but the place of a fellow wounded pilgrim.
 I know that group therapy has been used successfully in helping certain problems (AA) and I think the BB can kind of fill that role.  We are all recovering Assemblites and that gives us the ability to understand and feel compassion for those struggling with similar issues.
  When I first left I longed for such companionship.  I tried to talk to other Christians about my Assembly experience and some thought I was nuts!  Others had no clue what I was talking about.  Fortunately, there were a few Bros. who left before I did who came out to me and helped me.
   I post here with the intention of trying to help Christians who have been hurt in the Assembly.  I also post here because I find it good therapy for myself as I try to think through these issues.
                                    God Bless,  Mark  

[guest]

THIS IS "GUEST" TOM MADDUX

Heather,

"continued bloody faces for the wives".

Say What???   What is this about?

Tom M.

[Stillwater]

Mark,

  YOU were "Maybe Next Year We'll Get a Tree"!! Wow. You're a celebrity.   I agree with you about finding people to talk to. Most Christians and people in general have NO IDEA what I'm talking about. They can't even fathom it. I'm really grateful for this BB and for the sister here who left before I did and has gone out to me.
  Tom, the "bloody faces" remark was a reference to gross domestic abuse going untreated. I'm sorry if this was overly graphic. I also know that wives were usually hit where their clothing would cover it, not in the face. "Bloody face" just seemed like a good metaphor for domestic violence. I've gotten so much denial when I've tried to state things euphemistically in the past, that I've developed the habit of being very direct    in the context of the Assembly.  I'm having to relearn when/how to be gentle after all the rough and tumble.   I certainly did not intend to offend.

  Heather

[Mark C.]

Heather,
  I think my celebrity in this instance is probably more infamy than famous.  It is rather embarassing to admit to a bunch of personal problems like that.
  Rudy,
   Chill out a little bit on the log on thing!  Tom is having problems with getting the board to recognize him.  He clearly identifies himself and I can vouch for him as the real Tom Maddox.
    I agree with Heather that straight forward communication is necessary when discussing the Assembly.  There is so much Orwellian speech that went on there the truth can sound a bit blunt at times.  Also, trying to talk via our computers always makes for some miscommunication.  Think back at how we missed Al's sarcasm and took him serioius.
                        God Bless,  Mark

[Stillwater]

Whoa...

  I never intended to joke about this stuff. I'm sorry I ever used that phrase. First it's too blunt, then it's too flippant.  
  Rudy, if you're referring to my phrase, "rough and tumble" followed by a  , that was a reference to the arguments I had when I tried to discuss this stuff with Assembly members while I was still in. If you're referring to my comment about women being attacked, I was serious. By using the word, "blood," I was trying to emphasize the seriousness of the problem--that without intervention women would continue to be beaten and possibly killed. I'll try to be more careful with my figurative language in the future.  

Heather

[Mark C.]

Rudy,
  I'm sorry but I must have missed a lot here.  My reference to the "log-on" thing refered to what you had to say to Tom re. not identifying himself.  My chill out suggestion was in regard to that.
   Re. the blood issue I'm totally confused and have no idea what you're talking about.  I think we're all opposed to anybody spilling blood here and take the issue of abuse very seriously.
   My intention was to make love not war.      
                      A former Hippie,  Mark

[brian]

Chill out on the log on thing?

:: edited by admin ::

Don't tell me to chill out.

mark is a global moderator, which means when he tells you to chill out, you should listen. mark is an extremely reasonable and easy-going guy.

i have deleted several of rudy's recent posts that were inappropriate, harassing, and even threatening. because he went so far over the line, i am also suspending his account temporarily. sorry rudy, but i made it clear that such posts are not welcome here, and i meant it.

[gUEST]

Hey, what happened to Rudy?

You know what. He doesn't have any documentation of any suspension.

This is so assembly. Talk behind someone's back. Smile when you see
him face to face and say, 'there's no problem brother'.

[Stillwater]

Mark,

  I think it's wonderful that you shared your story with Enroth for Recovering from Churches that Abuse. It was courageous and humble of you to talk about those issues. A lot of people, including me, have undoubtedly gained a greater understanding of their situation and what to do thanks to your honesty. Did you know that there was a rumor that the chapter on the Assembly in Enroth's first book was compiled from the observations of a "peeping Tom" at Tim and Ginger's? I didn't read it for years, believing it was the fabrications of a peeping Tom! What a surprise to discover it was actually the story of a brother who'd been in the Assembly for 11 years!  

Heather

[Heide]

Hey Eulaha,

Remember one thing: there is no shame to what you were involved with. You were a little sheep who just wanted Christ and someone else used you to their advantage. One of the things that has helped me most is by being involved with other people. The people that you love, let them in. We hold onto our "secrets'' like they are so terrible. Go out with your girlfriends. Girlfriends have secrets and sharing them is the worst and best of any relationship. Be involved with your life.

I remember when I first came out of the SLO assembly, what do you tell people when they ask where/which church have you come from? Once I started saying that I had been part of a christian cult there was a great weight lifted from me. I identified the problem. It wasn't with me.  Yes, I let it happen because I was naive and young. The SLO assembly was my home away from home (sound like a hook?). They dangled a carrot in your face and you went for it, there is no shame to that! YOU ARE NOT TO BLAME. Let yourself off the hook. I don't know much about PTSD but I do know that the more you try and hide it, it will just come up and bite you in the behind. Share, tell, shout, scream, cry.  You have a right to your emotions.

Heide

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[lenore]

MAY 15TH: 2:21 AM est

ALONE WITH MY EMOTIONAL STRUGGLES:

We can all say , NO> and we can all say YES>
Struggling with emotions is a very personal, individual thing.  But getting the support from God, God's people, friends, family, community, church, etc.
Then struggling with your emotions is not alone job.

Right now , I am battling a fight.
A fight with my clinical depression  emotions , that are out of control, and my spirit trying to keep the faith in the promises of God.

Unless you have been through this, and can empathize, then it is only sympathy, that other can give.
Quiet often in this type of battle, we can make our selves alone, too. Because we become so chamelon like.
Building walls of protection, that no one else can climb.
Some times not even letting God in.
God is knocking at the door, waiting on us to let him in to help. But we say, OH NO, you can wait on the porch, or front stoop, or just in vestibule.

God sits down and waits until we are ready to let him in. If we can only let him in to the vestibule. He meet us there, he waits, waits, waits.

Because our emotions, gives us a rollercoaster ride in such a split second.  We want to hide in our own little corner, then we want to dump everything out on people, but only what we really want to share.

YOU KNOW SOMETHING:
SAY HI/HOW ARE YOU/FINE/YOU/
Then go on the merry way.
This is the biggest greetings that is absolutely a lie.Are we really interested in how the other is feeling,

WHAT IF THEY WANT TO SAY NO CAN I SHARE !

THIS HAPPENED TO ME IN CHURCH. i started talking about how rotten i was feeling, and I found out that
 I was talking to the plant arrangement on the table in the vestibule of the church. The person who ask HOW ARE YOU, was already in the sanctuary, sitting down.

It is so habitual.
So if you are in a depression state. a battle maybe for your life. etc.

This taught me a good lesson. I take that extra minute to wait, to see if they say something beyond I am fine yourself.
It also made me hestitant about saying something besides I am fine.
Emotional struggles do not have to be alone.
But quite often it is , whether it is by choice or by someone elses choices.
We can tell our hearts, we can say all the platitudes, or others can say all the platitudes to in affect.
You can rise above. I am being positive about this last sentence. The well meaning friends like poor patient Job.
The Bible had a nother example of someone DEPRESSION and in an emotional struggle.
ELIJAH.
When Elijah, became depressed after stressful time, no rain for three years, Queen Jezebel putting a death sentence bounty on his head, challenge of the gods vs God in the altar. Then praying for it to rain.
Elijah became depressed, phyically exhausted, and emotionally struggling.
How did Elijah cope: SLEEP AND FOOD.
1 KINGS 19:4-8
SLEEP , ANGELS BROUGHT HIM FOOD, AND WENT TO SEEK GOD, AFTER BEING PHYICALLY ENERGIZE AGAIN, TO SEEK HEALING FOR HIS BATTERED EMOTIONAL AND SPIRITUAL DAMAGE, THAT HAS OCCURRED.

THE EVENTS OF THIS IS IN 1 KINGS:CHAPTERS: 17, 18,19,

Even Elijah was not alone in his emotional struggles, God took care of his immediate needs, which is
REST AND NOURISHMENT. To aide Elijah the journey to seek God for some spiritual healing.

Maybe I am not making much sense.
So in summary:
Emotional struggles is an individual thing, with individual needs, individual copying skills .
but we should not be alone in our recovery process.
GOD HAS GIVEN US EXAMPLES OF VERY PRACTICAL WAYS, to help and be helped.

THANK YOU FOR READING THIS.

[al Hartman]

     Lenore's post (below) is packed with things to consider, and well worth a second and third reading.  I wish to comment on only a couple of these thoughts:

Right now , I am battling a fight.
A fight with my clinical depression  emotions , that are out of control, and my spirit trying to keep the faith in the promises of God.

     From our end, our perspective, depression can seem an awesome and powerful foe.  There is no time when we are more vulnerable than when we are emotionally depressed--discouragement and despair seem like sure-fire victors.

     But the emotions that seem "out of control," are only so to us-- never to God.  There is no human condition that is beyond His control.  We must learn to know, accept and praise Him for that.  He has overcome the source of our tribulation in the world.

     The scriptural instruction to keep the faith is just that.  We are not told to win, gain or conjure up the faith.  It is the faith once delivered unto the saints, and it was the Spirit of the Living God Who delivered that faith to us-- placed it within our grasp.  We don't have to come up with the faith, but just to cling to it.

 ...often in this type of battle, we can make our selves alone, too. Because we become so chamelon like.
Building walls of protection, that no one else can climb.
Some times not even letting God in.

     "We become so chameleon like" is an interesting observation.  Fallen human nature reeks of a justly deserved sense of guilt and, accompanying that guilt, a dire fear of vulnerability.  Hence, to avoid exposure as the sinners we are, we seek to "fit in" with whoever or whatever we are exposed to.  But this fitting in is a facade, a false front by which we project the image of likemindedness with those we fear, while at the same time isolating ourselves from discovery so that none may behold who and what we believe ourselves to be, even to the point of keeping God Himself at bay.

     In such a state we deceive ourselves, imagining we are kept safe within our projected illusion when, in fact, God is not in the least convinced of our ruse, and chances are that nobody else really cares or, if they do, they see right through it.  It is only ourseves who accept the delusion.

     The crux of the problem is that we are focused on our self-perceptions, when we need to be seeing ourselves as God sees us.  We interpret our experiences by the evidence of our emotions; our fears and anxieties, while God sees us on the far side of Calvary, post-redemption, cleansed and reborn, perfected in Christ Jesus.  As we learn to view ourselves through God's eyes, we begin to grow beyond the subjectivity to our feelings and emotions, and as we grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ, we no longer feel a need to keep others out, but desire to let them in, that they too may be partakers of the grace that has delivered us.  

     Then the only chameleonlike aspect of us is our being conformed into the image of our Redeemer.