A Little Leaven

[editor]

I am just posting some random observations I have made lately.  These may not apply to everyone, but each of them applies to someone, and some of them apply to almost everyone, while none of them applies to no one......

Conclusions that must be drawn if we believe that Assemblies that were affiliated with George's ministry for years, even decades, were "not influenced by him."  The vast majority of groups have concluded that George is bad, and have banned his books, tapes, even his person, etc.  Keeping this in mind....

Seminars----many of the saints went to 3 seminars a year, some went to 4, some only one, and many workers went to 5, counting the Workers' seminar.

If we substitute Gambling for Seminars, we must conclude the following:

If I make 3 to 5 trips to Vegas per year, for the sole purpose of gambling, I am not a gambler.

Books, tapes and Video seminars----every Assembly listened to 2 hours of George's preaching on Saturdays, many listened to tapes for Sunday PM ministry.  Several Assemblies watched seminars on video tape several times per year.  Every Assembly was the sole seller of George's books in their location, and displayed them several times per week on the booktable.

Let's substitute pornography for George's banned literature:

If I watch a two hour porn film every Saturday, sometimes on Sunday, and purchase pornographic literature and read it frequently, encourage others to purchase pornographic literature during "announcements," and encourage others to watch the porn film with me on Saturday, I don't have a problem with pornography.

Culture----- I have been dressing like the saints, talking like the saints and hanging out exclusively with the saints for 20 years, attending the meetings, etc.  George and Betty have played a prominent role in defining how I lived, even what I ate.  George and Betty have been banned now, and some of their lifestyle ideas have been brought under scrutiny.

If we substitute The Amish, for the Assembly, we must conclude the following if we are going to hold to the position that we were not influenced by George:

Even though I married and Amish woman, dress like the Amish, ride in horse and buggy, and live in a closed community,  I am not influenced by the Amish.

Some people are going to dismiss what I am saying by asserting that it is an "apples to oranges," idea to equate pornography with seminars.  However, I totally disagree, because both George and the pornography are not welcome and have been banned, etc.

Furthermore, Paul uses the issue of morality in his appeal to the Corinthians when he says "a little leaven leavens the whole lump."  He concludes that the immoral person should be put out.  George was put out for immorality.  Does a little leaven leaven the whole lump or not?  Paul is saying that having a guy like George around is destructive.  Is it wise to conclude that he never influenced us, in spite of the fact that he directed our lives and taught us everything we know about the Bible?

Brent---I was never influenced by anything, despite of what I listened to, obeyed and believed....

[mithrandir]

Brent, you make a very good point.  As Avril Lavigne once sang, "Can I make it any more obvious?"

This is why anyone who has sense has left the Geftakys groups, and is unafraid to call them cults.  This is why I have basically thrown out everything I was taught for 23 years, and am starting from scratch.  This leads to the inescapable conclusion that I am not qualified to be a spiritual guide or leader right now, and that I need to heal and to learn the truth.  Right now, I'm okay with that.  But this conclusion is frightening to people who can't stand the thought of being nobodies, and who cling to their "flock" like Adam and Eve clung to their fig leaves...

mithrandir

[vernecarty]

Brent you have agian brilliantly illustrated why I am of the unalterable opinion that to stay with George and his teaching, meant we had to disbelieve our Bibles. In a word, there are still those insisting that a little leaven does not leaven the whole lump...and so their deception continues...what a marvellous thing faith is!!!
Verne

[M2]

How does one remove the leaven that has permeated the dough? With God all things are possible, but we must do it His way. Those who have proven themselves (ourselves, myself included) unfaithful to stand up to GG and his servants and to expose his erroneous teachings in the past, will now not magically qualify for responsibility to lead/guide/shepherd a flock. I agree with Mith:

This is why anyone who has sense has left the Geftakys groups, and is unafraid to call them cults.  This is why I have basically thrown out everything I was taught for 23 years, and am starting from scratch.  This leads to the inescapable conclusion that I am not qualified to be a spiritual guide or leader right now, and that I need to heal and to learn the truth.  Right now, I'm okay with that.  But this conclusion is frightening to people who can't stand the thought of being nobodies, and who cling to their "flock" like Adam and Eve clung to their fig leaves...

Marcia

P.S. I've discovered that the secret to getting Mith to post is to mention the name of a particular brother from Placentia.  

[Recovering Saint]

I am thinking out loud here and hopefully you get the point of how a corrupt system cannot be defeated with common sense or logic.

The House that George built.

Does it have the right to claim direct succession from Peter? Does George's Church have the right to that claim? Then does that mean that the Elders and LBs are appointed by God? Then who can oppose what God has ordained? I am not worthy. I cannot oppose such a leader can I?

How clever to hide behind God to deflect all our serious enquiries. After all if you oppose the Assembly you are opposing God's work. Such a system is so difficult to overcome because of course no one still in the Assembly will admit that this is not God's work because then they would be guilty of not leaving because God was not there.

After their minds have been corrupted to accept the Assembly twisting scriptures it is impossible to leave without violating their conscience. After all who can fight God and win.

What a beautiful way to keep the people in bondage. They don't need a fence because the people are keeping themselves in bondage by the way they view things.

Any comments.  

[enchilada]

Quote from below:  I am thinking out loud here and hopefully you get the point of how a corrupt system cannot be defeated with common sense or logic.

     My opinion: I agree.  Common sense and logic are tools for identifying potential problems and working out solutions.  In the case of the george's religion organism, which preyed on unwitting followers, it takes physical action to defeat.  A good start would be to physically place george in jail for tax evasion.

Quote, ditto (Qd): Does it have the right to claim direct succession from Peter?

     My opinion (Mo):  Lot's of cults, and none of the healthy churches make that claim.  If mine ever did, I'd be fleeing it faster than the speed of the coins dropping in the tything box.

Qd: How clever to hide behind God to deflect all our serious enquiries

Mo: George is a servant of the devil, a con artist, snake-oil salesman.  He possessed a satanic church bible, a collection of pagan artifacts in his house at some time, and destroyed a lot of lives.  Between those few facts, particularly the latter, it's difficult to conclude otherwise.  

A lot of the members of cults are very intelligent people.  It just goes to show that common sense, intelligence and the ability to use logic aren't enough.  The power of brainwashing techniques is too much because they somehow block the receptors in the brain that would otherwise compell one to flee.  People that got "A"'s in critical thinking courses remained in bondage to the geftakys cult.  It takes more than awareness to defeat a corrupt system.  This is war, and thinking about the enemy without shooting him down will lead to undesirable results (figuratively speaking).  

[vernecarty]

Quote from below:  I am thinking out loud here and hopefully you get the point of how a corrupt system cannot be defeated with common sense or logic.

     My opinion: I agree.  Common sense and logic are tools for identifying potential problems and working out solutions.  In the case of the george's religion organism, which preyed on unwitting followers, it takes physical action to defeat.  A good start would be to physically place george in jail for tax evasion.

Quote, ditto (Qd): Does it have the right to claim direct succession from Peter?

     My opinion (Mo):  Lot's of cults, and none of the healthy churches make that claim.  If mine ever did, I'd be fleeing it faster than the speed of the coins dropping in the tything box.

Qd: How clever to hide behind God to deflect all our serious enquiries

Mo: George is a servant of the devil, a con artist, snake-oil salesman.  He possessed a satanic church bible, a collection of pagan artifacts in his house at some time, and destroyed a lot of lives.  Between those few facts, particularly the latter, it's difficult to conclude otherwise.  

A lot of the members of cults are very intelligent people.  It just goes to show that common sense, intelligence and the ability to use logic aren't enough.  The power of brainwashing techniques is too much because they somehow block the receptors in the brain that would otherwise compell one to flee.  People that got "A"'s in critical thinking courses remained in bondage to the geftakys cult.  It takes more than awareness to defeat a corrupt system.  This is war, and thinking about the enemy without shooting him down will lead to undesirable results (figuratively speaking).  

You really should post more often...I must tell you there are some who would with foaming jowl protest your characterization of the false teacher Geftakys and blithely dub him "The Lord's servant"! It truly takes blasphemy to a new level...
Verne

[M2]

I am thinking out loud here and hopefully you get the point of how a corrupt system cannot be defeated with common sense or logic.

The House that George built.

Does it have the right to claim direct succession from Peter? Does George's Church have the right to that claim? Then does that mean that the Elders and LBs are appointed by God? Then who can oppose what God has ordained? I am not worthy. I cannot oppose such a leader can I?

How clever to hide behind God to deflect all our serious enquiries. After all if you oppose the Assembly you are opposing God's work. Such a system is so difficult to overcome because of course no one still in the Assembly will admit that this is not God's work because then they would be guilty of not leaving because God was not there.

After their minds have been corrupted to accept the Assembly twisting scriptures it is impossible to leave without violating their conscience. After all who can fight God and win.

What a beautiful way to keep the people in bondage. They don't need a fence because the people are keeping themselves in bondage by the way they view things.

Any comments.  

Hey RS,

Even Tuvoc (ST-Voyageur Vulcan) resorts to medication, or is it meditation. How does a Vulcan conclude that meditation is logical?  Anyway, just goes to show the degree of deception that critical thinkers can get into.

Now that I am a critical thinker once again, I have to agree with your 'arguments'.

Lord bless,
M2

[al Hartman]

I am thinking out loud here and hopefully you get the point of how a corrupt system cannot be defeated with common sense or logic.

RS, you think out loud very articulately.  Keep it up.

Matthew 17:20 tells us that faith comparable in size to a mustard seed can move a mountain, and that nothing will be impossible to those with such faith.  (It is not the size of the faith, but the One upon in Whom it is placed, that matters.)  Our arguments are vain.  His power is omnipotent.

The House that George built.

Does it have the right to claim direct succession from Peter? Does George's Church have the right to that claim? Then does that mean that the Elders and LBs are appointed by God? Then who can oppose what God has ordained? I am not worthy. I cannot oppose such a leader can I?

How clever to hide behind God to deflect all our serious enquiries. After all if you oppose the Assembly you are opposing God's work. Such a system is so difficult to overcome because of course no one still in the Assembly will admit that this is not God's work because then they would be guilty of not leaving because God was not there.

After their minds have been corrupted to accept the Assembly twisting scriptures it is impossible to leave without violating their conscience. After all who can fight God and win.

What a beautiful way to keep the people in bondage. They don't need a fence because the people are keeping themselves in bondage by the way they view things.

This is not a new phenomenon.  Historically, the practice is known as Theocracy, a form of government by which priests or other religious leaders control the people by claiming to speak for God.  (A true priest stands between God and man as an intercessor;  the theocratic priest stands before man to block his access to God in order to accomplish his own ends.)

George Geftakys declared that [1]the government of God's church was the only true theocracy on earth, and that [2]it was to be witnessed in the assemblies.  Some day soon, the truth of the first point will be known and acknowledged by all nations.  Point two never happened, ever, anywhere.  The Geftakys's were and are as all other theocratic leaders have ever been:  liars, deceiving their followers, ultimately failing in all they profess and attempt, bringing down destruction upon themselves and those who surround them.

Posted by: Dan Fredrickson on: December 03, 2003, 04:52:55 pm  
  In the case of the george's religion organism, which preyed on unwitting followers, it takes physical action to defeat.  A good start would be to physically place george in jail for tax evasion.

While i would be neither surprised nor disappointed to see GG and several others end up behind bars, we will do well to remember that our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against a spiritual enemy, and that our armor for the battle is spiritual armor, which does not include the law of the land.  (Please read Ephesians 6:10-18.)
Consider that, for all the many lies we have been told, they originated not from the vessel(s) that delivered them to us, but from the devil, who is the greatest liar and the father of lies.  (Read John 8:44.)
Witness the great fall of mankind in Genesis 3.  See how this enormous, world-dooming sin which bore eternal repercussions, began with a small tweaking of the truth here, a subtle twist there.  Adam and Eve didn't know what hit them.  They sinned, yes, but they had been seduced, and not just by a clever worldly animal, but by the devil who had been cast out of Heaven.

We may think of George as a snake, but he is not satan.  We may see the Geftakys's incarcerated for their crimes against society, but satan's punishment for crimes against the people of God is yet to come, at God's hand (Vengeance is Mine, says the Lord).  The redemption of those still in thrall to the assemblies is not to be found in a sentence by a criminal court, but in the preaching of the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ.  And by His grace, the greatest part George could have in that is the role of a penitent.  That is why we have been asked to pray for the Geftakys's repentance:  not just for their own souls' salvation, but for the testimony of Christ's love and mercy to their bewildered followers.

We can afford to be indifferent about the jail thing:  it is conviction of sin by God's Holy Spirit, and not conviction of crimes by a court of law, that will bear testimony to the grace of Jesus Christ-- it makes no matter on which side of the bars the guilty repent.

We must be wise as serpents (but not behave as they do, for they are predators), and harmless as doves (utterly dependent upon God).  God grant us wisdom to be so.

al Hartman

[BeckyW]

I am thinking out loud here and hopefully you get the point of how a corrupt system cannot be defeated with common sense or logic.

RS, you think out loud very articulately.  Keep it up.

RS and all,
It's true, especially given the lack of common sense in the assembly system in the first place.  I think only God can open eyes, and after that we can begin to think more clearly about some of these matters.  One example comes to mind. I know that an LB said to a member wanting some answers last spring, "Nobody is saying 'Don't ask questions', just let everything be edifying in subject and in manner."   Considering the situations bringing up the questions-spiritual fraud and malpractice, abuse, years of cover-up, etc., is that a sensible, logical thing to say?
This LB was failing to recognize that sometimes God has to tear some things down before He can build back up.  Leaven alert.
BW

[jackhutchinson]

I know that an LB said to a member wanting some answers last spring, "Nobody is saying 'Don't ask questions', just let everything be edifying in subject and in manner."   Considering the situations bringing up the questions-spiritual fraud and malpractice, abuse, years of cover-up, etc., is that a sensible, logical thing to say?

Leaders in SLO said similar things a year ago.  Discussing George's and David's sordid behavior is viewed by assembly leaders as unedifying (or defiling).  So, according to assembly 'logic' we can only discuss things that are 'edifying' (ie not related to those subjects that make the assembly look bad).  This was their subtle way of preventing us from discussing the problems without having to explicitly tell us "You can't ask questions."

Jack

[vernecarty]

"Nobody is saying 'Don't ask questions', just let everything be edifying in subject and in manner."
BW

Self-righteous poppy-cock! In other words, let's not talk about things that truly matter why don't we? Let  us just ignore the noisome spiritual stench permeating everything we have been doing for years and pretend the undeniable spiritual rot now being evidenced all around us is just a figment of our own imagination. Is that what this person meant perhaps?
It is fatal to think that you can give to God that which costs you nothing. None of us were willing to pay the price it took to stand for righteousness...we were simply not willing...

Some of the rag-tag bunch so free in their criticism of Brent ought to ask what it cost him to do what he did...I fear many of us prone to forgetting our history are doomed to repeat it.


Becky you are so right about this...  
Verne

[M2]

"Nobody is saying 'Don't ask questions', just let everything be edifying in subject and in manner."
BW

Self-righteous poppy-cock! In other words, let's not talk about things that truly matter why don't we? Let  us just ignore the noisome spiritual stench permeating everything we have been doing for years and pretend the undeniable spiritual rot now being evidenced all around us is just a figment of our own imagination. Is that what this person meant perhaps?
It is fatal to think that you can give to God that which costs you nothing. None of us were willing to pay the price it took to stand for righteousness...we were simply not willing...

Some of the rag-tag bunch so free in their criticism of Brent ought to ask what it cost him to do what he did...I fear many of us prone to forgetting our history are doomed to repeat it.


Becky you are so right about this...  
Verne

Now Verne, you've gone too far. You're causing strife and you are gossipping. You need to do a word study on strife and gossip, and look up all the Bible references to these vices, and submit your findings to this BB ASAP!!

Marcia

[vernecarty]

"Nobody is saying 'Don't ask questions', just let everything be edifying in subject and in manner."
BW

Self-righteous poppy-cock! In other words, let's not talk about things that truly matter why don't we? Let  us just ignore the noisome spiritual stench permeating everything we have been doing for years and pretend the undeniable spiritual rot now being evidenced all around us is just a figment of our own imagination. Is that what this person meant perhaps?
It is fatal to think that you can give to God that which costs you nothing. None of us were willing to pay the price it took to stand for righteousness...we were simply not willing...

Some of the rag-tag bunch so free in their criticism of Brent ought to ask what it cost him to do what he did...I fear many of us prone to forgetting our history are doomed to repeat it.


Becky you are so right about this...  
Verne

Now Verne, you've gone too far. You're causing strife and you are gossipping. You need to do a word study on strife and gossip, and look up all the Bible references to these vices, and submit your findings to this BB ASAP!!

Marcia

This LB was failing to recognize that sometimes God has to tear some things down before He can build back up.  Leaven alert.

Just in case I was a bit unclear, let me put it this way.
This LB whoever he was, and any and all like him was nothing but a flaming and contemptible hypocrite- a total disgrace to the cause of Jesus Christ. How's that for bluntness?
Verne

[M2]

This LB was failing to recognize that sometimes God has to tear some things down before He can build back up.  Leaven alert.

Just in case I was a bit unclear, let me put it this way.
This LB whoever he was, and any and all like him was nothing but a flaming and contemptible hypocrite- a total disgrace to the cause of Jesus Christ. How's that for bluntness?
Verne

Verne, you definitely have a way with words.

Just in case anyone thought that I was serious in my post below, I want to state that I was joking. However, someone I know was recently actually exhorted in a similar manner when they attempted to bring up the topic of assembly matters. Bob Smith might say, "give me a break", and I can (sort of) understand if he did, because it is mind-boggling what some assembly folk will resort to in order to 'preserve the testimony'.

Lord bless,
Marcia