A Little Leaven

[BeckyW]

Verne,
No, you were very clear.  :)  But consider the discussions about mind control, coercive persuasion, even Rec. Saint's recent post on the kinds of thoughts/conversations we all had while 'in'.  I don't want to condemn the individual(s) saying these kinds of things.  It's the behavior I wanted to single out, and the wrong teaching/thinking/training that produces that kind of behavior.
As Jack and others point out below, it was coast to coast assembly doctrine to behave this way.  I think we all practiced it to some measure.  The need now is for the grace of God to break through to hearts still unable to face the truth.  
I heard an interview with a man who wrote "When Bad Christians Happen to Good People".  I haven't read the book, but the author did say that if someone listening felt he or she had never behaved in a bad way as a christian, he'd like to hear from them.  He's never met one yet, himself included.  
Glad for clarity, but even more for the grace of God,
Becky

[vernecarty]

Verne,
No, you were very clear.    But consider the discussions about mind control, coercive persuasion, even Rec. Saint's recent post on the kinds of thoughts/conversations we all had while 'in'.  I don't want to condemn the individual(s) saying these kinds of things.  It's the behavior I wanted to single out, and the wrong teaching/thinking/training that produces that kind of behavior.
As Jack and others point out below, it was coast to coast assembly doctrine to behave this way.  I think we all practiced it to some measure.  The need now is for the grace of God to break through to hearts still unable to face the truth.  
I heard an interview with a man who wrote "When Bad Christians Happen to Good People".  I haven't read the book, but the author did say that if someone listening felt he or she had never behaved in a bad way as a christian, he'd like to hear from them.  He's never met one yet, himself included.  
Glad for clarity, but even more for the grace of God,
Becky

Thanks for the reminder of the need to be gracious Becky. A lot of my frustration comes from the fact that some of these fellows seem to still be of the opinion that nothing was rotting in Denmark...
Verne
p.s. Marcia I know you commented tongue in cheek...so did I...partially  

Verne

[Mark Kisla]

Verne,
No, you were very clear.    But consider the discussions about mind control, coercive persuasion, even Rec. Saint's recent post on the kinds of thoughts/conversations we all had while 'in'.  I don't want to condemn the individual(s) saying these kinds of things.  It's the behavior I wanted to single out, and the wrong teaching/thinking/training that produces that kind of behavior.
As Jack and others point out below, it was coast to coast assembly doctrine to behave this way.  I think we all practiced it to some measure.  The need now is for the grace of God to break through to hearts still unable to face the truth.  
I heard an interview with a man who wrote "When Bad Christians Happen to Good People".  I haven't read the book, but the author did say that if someone listening felt he or she had never behaved in a bad way as a christian, he'd like to hear from them.  He's never met one yet, himself included.  
Glad for clarity, but even more for the grace of God,
Becky

Thanks for the reminder of the need to be gracious Becky. A lot of my frustration comes from the fact that some of these fellows seem to still be of the opinion that nothing was rotting in Denmark...
Verne
p.s. Marcia I know you commented tongue in cheek...so did I...partially  

Verne

You would think that everyone learned a lesson from all of this. As long as people CHOOSE to ignore any doubt or question their conscience may have about anything fishy, people like George will be there to seize the opportunity.
George put enough truth out there for us to take the bait, after he set the hook and had us mezmerised with the lofty things of God, that's when things started getting weird.
It would be the easy way out to put it all behind me, my conscience says the truth of this matter needs to be an open book for all to learn from.

[enchilada]

I am thinking out loud here and hopefully you get the point of how a corrupt system cannot be defeated with common sense or logic.

Posted by: Dan Fredrickson on: December 03, 2003, 04:52:55 pm  
  In the case of the george's religion organism, which preyed on unwitting followers, it takes physical action to defeat.  A good start would be to physically place george in jail for tax evasion.

While i would be neither surprised nor disappointed to see GG and several others end up behind bars, we will do well to remember that our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against a spiritual enemy, and that our armor for the battle is spiritual armor, which does not include the law of the land.  (Please read Ephesians 6:10-18.)
Consider that, for all the many lies we have been told, they originated not from the vessel(s) that delivered them to us, but from the devil, who is the greatest liar and the father of lies.  (Read John 8:44.)
Witness the great fall of mankind in Genesis 3.  See how this enormous, world-dooming sin which bore eternal repercussions, began with a small tweaking of the truth here, a subtle twist there.  Adam and Eve didn't know what hit them.  They sinned, yes, but they had been seduced, and not just by a clever worldly animal, but by the devil who had been cast out of Heaven.

We may think of George as a snake, but he is not satan.  We may see the Geftakys's incarcerated for their crimes against society, but satan's punishment for crimes against the people of God is yet to come, at God's hand (Vengeance is Mine, says the Lord).  The redemption of those still in thrall to the assemblies is not to be found in a sentence by a criminal court, but in the preaching of the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ.  And by His grace, the greatest part George could have in that is the role of a penitent.  That is why we have been asked to pray for the Geftakys's repentance:  not just for their own souls' salvation, but for the testimony of Christ's love and mercy to their bewildered followers.

We can afford to be indifferent about the jail thing:  it is conviction of sin by God's Holy Spirit, and not conviction of crimes by a court of law, that will bear testimony to the grace of Jesus Christ-- it makes no matter on which side of the bars the guilty repent.

We must be wise as serpents (but not behave as they do, for they are predators), and harmless as doves (utterly dependent upon God).  God grant us wisdom to be so.

al Hartman

Al,

I agree that the vengence of GG's sin is God's.  I also hope that GG repents for his soul's sake.  In the meantime, he needs to be put away to jail in order to prevent him from using his talent of exploiting people.  Looks like his tax issues is the only way to send him up the river.  Hopefully, the government will do it, but unfortunately, given the IRS's backlog and inefficient collection system, he'll probably remain free and continue his parasitic lifestyle.  He'll continue to invite people to lunch at his house and figure that if they are brainwashed enough to eat the weird slop that is on the table, then they are preped for almost anything.

I had lunch at GG's house during a seminar break at the invitation of Jim McCallister many years ago.  It was the worst food I ever had in my life.  And GG's table manners were appalling (food particles flying out of his mouth while talking at a high volume).  Poor Jim ate everything on his plate.  I lost my appetite and ate very little that day.  Yeach!  Blaaachh!! (horrible sight!!!)

So much for rambling memories, but here's a tip for those who are still in the assembly:  If you want to stay in for the sake of craving the cult life, at least get out for the sake of your stomach.

Last I read on this bb, Jim is still in.  Poor soul...

[al Hartman]

I agree that the vengence of GG's sin is God's.  I also hope that GG repents for his soul's sake.  In the meantime, he needs to be put away to jail in order to prevent him from using his talent of exploiting people.  Looks like his tax issues is the only way to send him up the river.  Hopefully, the government will do it, but unfortunately, given the IRS's backlog and inefficient collection system, he'll probably remain free and continue his parasitic lifestyle.  

Dan,
     i saw a fantastic movie a couple of years ago, entitled The Apostle.  It stars Robert Duvall as an itinerant country preacher whose theology and morality are as twisted as a rope in the wind.  (Picture George, but with less hair.)
     This character murders a man violently, but with premeditation.  His followers are divided:  some see him for what he really is under the facade of his religiosity, while others believe in him and follow him devotedly, aiding him while ignoring the obvious.  The whole story is sadly true to life.
     Eventually, this "apostle" is apprehended, brought to trial and convicted.  He is without remorse and, insisting he has done no wrong, is untouched by the plight of those whose lives he has ravaged.  In the final scene, he is part of a chain-gang, breaking rocks in a field.  He is smiling as he labors, and leading the entire work crew of convicted felons in the rhythmic chanting of spiritual choruses.  
     The insulation of his self-deception is undamaged:  He is still the apostle, still has the anointing, still is serving the Lord.  Like Paul, he has been imprisoned for the gospel's sake, and God has given him a new flock.

     The point of the film, and mine, is that the leopard's spots are unchanged.  The man is no less a threat to humanity within a prison than outside it.  That threat, his exploitativeness, can only be removed through repentance or dire tragedy.  We pray the Lord's judgment may be merciful, but we know it must be decisive.
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Those who may be interested:  The Apostle is an unsettling film.    i can recommend it only to those with strong constitutions, interested in an intense character study, and who are not easily discouraged by a movie.

God bless,
al

[enchilada]

     i saw a fantastic movie a couple of years ago, entitled The Apostle.  It stars Robert Duvall as an itinerant country preacher whose theology and morality are as twisted as a rope in the wind.  (Picture George, but with less hair.)
     This character murders a man violently, but with premeditation.  His followers are divided:  some see him for what he really is under the facade of his religiosity, while others believe in him and follow him devotedly, aiding him while ignoring the obvious.  The whole story is sadly true to life.
     Eventually, this "apostle" is apprehended, brought to trial and convicted.  He is without remorse and, insisting he has done no wrong, is untouched by the plight of those whose lives he has ravaged.  In the final scene, he is part of a chain-gang, breaking rocks in a field.  He is smiling as he labors, and leading the entire work crew of convicted felons in the rhythmic chanting of spiritual choruses.  
     The insulation of his self-deception is undamaged:  He is still the apostle, still has the anointing, still is serving the Lord.  Like Paul, he has been imprisoned for the gospel's sake, and God has given him a new flock.

     The point of the film, and mine, is that the leopard's spots are unchanged.  The man is no less a threat to humanity within a prison than outside it.  That threat, his exploitativeness, can only be removed through repentance or dire tragedy.  We pray the Lord's judgment may be merciful, but we know it must be decisive.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Those who may be interested:  The Apostle is an unsettling film.    i can recommend it only to those with strong constitutions, interested in an intense character study, and who are not easily discouraged by a movie.

God bless,
al

Hi Al,

I havn't seen the movie, but it sounds like an interesting story, and Duvall seems like the approporate actor for the character.  

Having GG in prison is appropriate for reasons we all know and, much more abundantly, don't know.  The concern about the welfare GG's fellow inmates is valid.  However, prison is a place where there are many con artists similar to GG.  Consequentially, one more GG probably won't make much of a difference.  Prisons are ruled by gangs anyway, and it's most likely that GG would learn to keep his mouth shut if he desires to live through his sentence.  As a result, the experience for him would be a therapeutic one where he would be forced to keep to himself.  

Overall I hope that GG is sent to prison.  It would probably be the best thing to happen to him in his life, because it would humble him and perhaps inspire him a bit to repent.

Unfortunately, such a glorious thing is unlikely to happen because the IRS is too busy dunking donuts in the break room.

Sincerely,

Dan

[al Hartman]

Hi Al,

I havn't seen the movie, but it sounds like an interesting story, and Duvall seems like the approporate actor for the character.  

Having GG in prison is appropriate for reasons we all know and, much more abundantly, don't know.  The concern about the welfare GG's fellow inmates is valid.  However, prison is a place where there are many con artists similar to GG.  Consequentially, one more GG probably won't make much of a difference.  Prisons are ruled by gangs anyway, and it's most likely that GG would learn to keep his mouth shut if he desires to live through his sentence.  As a result, the experience for him would be a therapeutic one where he would be forced to keep to himself.  

Overall I hope that GG is sent to prison.  It would probably be the best thing to happen to him in his life, because it would humble him and perhaps inspire him a bit to repent.

Unfortunately, such a glorious thing is unlikely to happen because the IRS is too busy dunking donuts in the break room.

Sincerely,

Dan

Dan,
     Don't misunderstand me:  I'm in no way opposed to George's imprisonment, and fully agree with your main premises.  
     But as for George learning to keep his mouth shut because of gangs, well, c'mon!  I mean, he was a MARINE!  I think if Japan hadn't surrendered after Nagasaki, the Allies were planning to drop George on Tokyo.

     Seriously, I hope whatever it takes will bring him to repentance.

al

[outdeep]

Al,

I saw the Apostle within the last year and was equally struck by the simularities.  Duvall's character believed fully that he was called as God's servant and his whole interpretation of the world around him came from that vantage point.

I was especially struck by two things.  One, after he ran away, how he baptised himself as the Lord's Apostle in the river.  Second, how he could effortlessly sidestep obvious sin and spin the blame on another.

Sonny the preacher was talking with the other black preacher.  He referred to the murder he committed with words to the effect of, "Yeah, that old devil is tripping me up big time."  The black preacher didn't question it, but bought into the spiritual justification.  If you buy into the premises and presuppositions of the Apostle, you suddenly live in a world where things are looked at with a different set of rules.

The audience knew the preacher was wrong, yet I found myself liking him and feeling a bit disappointed that he was finally arrested and almost wanting to believe that he was just a simple servant of Christ whom the devil managed to trip up.  After all, he seemed to be doing so much good and his wife was so head-hearted, right?  There is a lesson in this, I'm sure.

The Apostle begs the question that we have asked.  Was he an evil man who knew exactly what he was doing and went forth with the intention to deceive?  Or, was he merely a tormented man who found it easier to live in his delusion rather than face himself and the world around him?


-Dave

[editor]

George taught, among other things, that Theological Seminary is a "worldly," endeavor, and that it is not sanctioned by Christ in the New Testament.

In contrast, he taught that "The local Assembly is the schoolroom of the believer."  In other words, a real church doesn't need seminary because God has richly endowed his little flock with pastors and teachers in order to equip the saints.

George's aim was to instruct "faithful" men who could then teach others.  As much as possible, he didn't want us getting any instruction outside of the "school room."  I think it is safe to say that he accomplished this goal, which means that his former followers are all graduates of the "school room of the believer."

My question is now that George has been excommunicated, are the "faithful" men that he instructed, those who are still leading a local assembly, are these men allowing outside teaching to influence them?

If this is the case, have they ever issued a statement or opinion about George's "schoolroom of the believer," teaching, from which they are all graduates?

In a similiar manner, there are no Chiropractic colleges in the mountain areas of Iran and Afghanistan.  However, there are practicioners there who do spinal manipulation, sort of like a family tradition.  They have been doing it for centuries, and some of them may be quite adept, while others are probably not.  Nevertheless, none of them could pass the National Board exams in order to practice chiropractic in the US.  They have knowledge in a certain narrow area, but don't have the broad understanding that allows them to safely render care to the public at large.

While some of these LB's have learned plenty about the bible, their knowledge is in such a narrow and often twisted area, that we need to question whether they are fit to be pastors and teachers, especially when we examine the accredidation of their "school room."

What are these guys saying in their defense?  Is anyone asking these questions face to face?

Brent

[d3z]

I know of at least a few other brothers who are now involved in a Brethren-type gathering.  They were very quickly incorporated into the preaching, even what we called stated ministry.

I doubt they are aware of the slant of the teaching they have received here, but I'm not sure how different the brethren gatherings are.

[editor]

I know of at least a few other brothers who are now involved in a Brethren-type gathering.  They were very quickly incorporated into the preaching, even what we called stated ministry.

I doubt they are aware of the slant of the teaching they have received here, but I'm not sure how different the brethren gatherings are.

What you say above is a recipe for disaster, and disaster will surely follow.  Too bad.

Brent

[al Hartman]

George's aim was to instruct "faithful" men who could then teach others.  As much as possible, he didn't want us getting any instruction outside of the "school room."  I think it is safe to say that he accomplished this goal, which means that his former followers are all graduates of the "school room of the believer."

My question is now that George has been excommunicated, are the "faithful" men that he instructed, those who are still leading a local assembly, are these men allowing outside teaching to influence them?

     Because he knew that sound teaching from outside the assembly could blow his cover (expose him as not being God's man of might upon earth for the present age), George labeled all outside teaching as being deceived and deceiving.  He projected the concept that the devil walked the whole face of the planet outside the Lord's covering, seeking who he might devour by planting the seeds of false teaching.
     The fact is that anyone who held sound teaching never paid the assembly a second visit, and if, upon visiting, one tried to engage George in conversation after a meeting, he blew them off.

     With all of his underlings held in fear of George himself and of the satanic lies just waiting to creep into their minds should they listen to an outsider, what are the odds of any of them having developed the wisdom or the courage to look outside the "covering" for sound teaching even now?

What are these guys saying in their defense?  Is anyone asking these questions face to face?

Brent

     Good question...  Anyone know?

al

[M2]

I watched a televized message by Charles Price entitled "What do Demons do?".  This is one of a  4-part series of messages.  Price said demons deceive the unbeliever (1Cor10), and the believer (1 Tim 4:1-3).

The demonic deception to the believer is evidenced by a ministry that sidetracks from the truth.  It does not blatantly deny the truth, but has a certain twist that taints the truth.  I found this very interesting re. to the Geftakys ministry.  Some say that George sinned and that they can go on with or without him.  But the Scripture supports the belief that it was not just George's sin, but an evil and demonic system that put those involved in bondage to a set of rules and regulations, dos and don'ts, rather than the message of grace and truth and the liberty of the Spirit of Christ.

1TI 4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
1TI 4:2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,
1TI 4:3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods, which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.


Any Comments??

Lord bless,
Marcia

I am just posting some random observations I have made lately.  These may not apply to everyone, but each of them applies to someone, and some of them apply to almost everyone, while none of them applies to no one......

Conclusions that must be drawn if we believe that Assemblies that were affiliated with George's ministry for years, even decades, were "not influenced by him."  The vast majority of groups have concluded that George is bad, and have banned his books, tapes, even his person, etc.  Keeping this in mind....

Seminars----many of the saints went to 3 seminars a year, some went to 4, some only one, and many workers went to 5, counting the Workers' seminar.

If we substitute Gambling for Seminars, we must conclude the following:

If I make 3 to 5 trips to Vegas per year, for the sole purpose of gambling, I am not a gambler.

Books, tapes and Video seminars----every Assembly listened to 2 hours of George's preaching on Saturdays, many listened to tapes for Sunday PM ministry.  Several Assemblies watched seminars on video tape several times per year.  Every Assembly was the sole seller of George's books in their location, and displayed them several times per week on the booktable.

Let's substitute pornography for George's banned literature:

If I watch a two hour porn film every Saturday, sometimes on Sunday, and purchase pornographic literature and read it frequently, encourage others to purchase pornographic literature during "announcements," and encourage others to watch the porn film with me on Saturday, I don't have a problem with pornography.

Culture----- I have been dressing like the saints, talking like the saints and hanging out exclusively with the saints for 20 years, attending the meetings, etc.  George and Betty have played a prominent role in defining how I lived, even what I ate.  George and Betty have been banned now, and some of their lifestyle ideas have been brought under scrutiny.

If we substitute The Amish, for the Assembly, we must conclude the following if we are going to hold to the position that we were not influenced by George:

Even though I married and Amish woman, dress like the Amish, ride in horse and buggy, and live in a closed community,  I am not influenced by the Amish.

Some people are going to dismiss what I am saying by asserting that it is an "apples to oranges," idea to equate pornography with seminars.  However, I totally disagree, because both George and the pornography are not welcome and have been banned, etc.

Furthermore, Paul uses the issue of morality in his appeal to the Corinthians when he says "a little leaven leavens the whole lump."  He concludes that the immoral person should be put out.  George was put out for immorality.  Does a little leaven leaven the whole lump or not?  Paul is saying that having a guy like George around is destructive.  Is it wise to conclude that he never influenced us, in spite of the fact that he directed our lives and taught us everything we know about the Bible?

Brent---I was never influenced by anything, despite of what I listened to, obeyed and believed....

[al Hartman]

     Every one of us, especially those who occupied roles of leadership and responsibility, needs to stand before a large mirror, eye-to-eye with the reflected image, and admit aloud, before God:

          I once listened to, believed in and followed the man  
     George Geftakys, who has been excommunicated from
     Christian worship and fellowship for his sins of which he
     has not repented.
          George Geftakys did not merely slip momentarily, but
      sinned deliberately, with premeditation, over a long
     period of time.
          Regardless of my personal distance from George
     Geftakys, because I have fellowshipped in a place
     where his teachings were honored and followed, it is
     impossible for me to be certain that I am free of his
     ungodly influence and that my mind and heart are
     untainted by his erroneous teachings and sinful ways.
          For this reason, I voluntarily disqualify myself from
     any and all recognition as a leader or teacher of God's
     people.  
          I commit myself to the pursuit of sound Bible
     instruction by godly men, and will not accept
     recognition, nor attempt to teach or lead God's
     people until I have been examined and
     approved by qualified godly men to do so.

     It is not important that this be repeated verbatim as it appears above.  What is essential is that every point be covered, honestly and humbly in confession to God, and that once settled in that way, it be repeated in the presence of our brethren, particularly those who may look up to us.

     Anyone to whom such a proposal seems unappealing should search own his heart and beg God to expose all roots of pride and selfishness.

     Sirs, we would see Jesus...

[moonflower2]

     Every one of us, especially those who occupied roles of leadership and responsibility, needs to stand before a large mirror, eye-to-eye with the reflected image, and admit aloud, before God:

          I once listened to, believed in and followed the man  
     George Geftakys, who has been excommunicated from
     Christian worship and fellowship for his sins of which he
     has not repented.
          George Geftakys did not merely slip momentarily, but
      sinned deliberately, with premeditation, over a long
     period of time.
          Regardless of my personal distance from George
     Geftakys, because I have fellowshipped in a place
     where his teachings were honored and followed, it is
     impossible for me to be certain that I am free of his
     ungodly influence and that my mind and heart are
     untainted by his erroneous teachings and sinful ways.
          For this reason, I voluntarily disqualify myself from
     any and all recognition as a leader or teacher of God's
     people.  
          I commit myself to the pursuit of sound Bible
     instruction by godly men, and will not accept
     recognition, nor attempt to teach or lead God's
     people until I have been examined and
     approved by qualified godly men to do so.

     It is not important that this be repeated verbatim as it appears above.  What is essential is that every point be covered, honestly and humbly in confession to God, and that once settled in that way, it be repeated in the presence of our brethren, particularly those who may look up to us.

     Anyone to whom such a proposal seems unappealing should search own his heart and beg God to expose all roots of pride and selfishness.

     Sirs, we would see Jesus...

Can you print some of these on cards that we can tuck into our Bibles like we did the old Selfer's Prayer?  

Seriously, I like this.