Calvin and Calvinism

[Oscar]

Verne and H,

I am really pressed for time right now.  When I can I will send you some quotes from Calvin himself that demostrate why he rejected limited atonement.

Until then.

Tom

I finished a project this evening, and I will have to start another tomorrow, but I am taking a few hours off, so here goes...

btw, these are from a secondary source, so I can't supply what comes before or after.

"This is our liberty, this our glorying against death, that our sins are not imputed to us. He says that this redemption was procured by the blood of Christ, for by the sacrifice of His death all the sins of the world have been expiated."      Comments on Colossians 1:15

"I approve of the ordinary reading, that he alone bore the punishment of many, because on was laid the guilt of the whole world.  It is evident from other passages, and especially from the fifth chapter of the Epistle to the Romans, that 'many' sometimes denotes 'all'.  Comments on Isaiah 53:12

"Mark 14:24.  This is my blood. I have already warned, when the blood is said to be poured out (as in Matthew) for the remission of sins, how these words we direct to the sacrifice of Christ's death,and to neglect this thought makes any due celebration of the Supper impossible.  In no other way can faithful souls be satisfied, if they cannot believe that God is pleased in their regard. The word many does not mean a part of the world only, but the whole human race: he contrasts many with one, as if to say that he would not be the Redeemer of one man, but would meet death to deliver many of their cursed guilt. It is incontestable that Christ came for the expiation of the sins of the whole world."
Eternal Predestination of God IX.5

"It is no small matter to have the souls perish who were bought by the blood of Christ" Calvin, The Mystery of Godliness, 83.

So, Verne and H, there you can see some info on Calvin's belief that Christ died for the sins of the whole world, just as scripture says.  I have several more quotes like this, but they are tediously long.

The problem that many Calvinists have with this idea seems to stem from the belief that the atonement has some kind of power that forces all for whom it is available to appropriate it.

I have never seen a convincing argument that such is the case.  They usually just state it and call you names if you don't agree.

God bless,
Thomas Maddux, Virulent Dog 1st Class with silver oak leaf cluster.

[Oscar]

Verne and H,

I am really pressed for time right now.  When I can I will send you some quotes from Calvin himself that demostrate why he rejected limited atonement.

Until then.

Tom

While it certainly will be interesting to see you quote Calvin to support your position, Tom, it will not affect my views, since they are based on what the Bible teaches, not on what Calvin taught.

H

Verne,

It beseemeth me that thou takest too firm a stance.  When thou believedst in the teaching of George Geftakys, was that not what the Bible taught as well?

Thomas Maddux, V.D.

[Oscar]

Due to my wife's illness (and other reasons), I have not had time to write as I had hoped. But then Verne is doing such a great job on this thread that there doesn't seem to be much need for my input at the moment anyway. However, I thought I would re-post what I wrote about the word "world" back in January:

The word in the Greek is "kosmos", and if you look it up in "A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature" by W.F.Arndt and F.W.Gingrich, translated from Walter Bauer, you will discover that "kosmos" has at least 8 meanings, depending on the context. As a matter of fact, only rarely does it mean "the entire human race." If you don't believe me, go look it up yourself. Even in those places where “kosmos” refers to mankind, it doesn’t always refer to the entire human race. Let me just give you 2 examples. In 2 Pet. 2:5, “world” refers exclusively to unbelievers (“And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth [person], a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;”). God spared Noah and his family, so they are obviously not included in the “old world” and “the world of the ungodly”. In contrast, “world” in John 12 :19 refers exclusively to people who were “going after him (Jesus)” (“The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.”). There is absolutely no way that you can make “world” in this verse refer to the entire human race. It refers to a large, indefinite group of people who shared a common characteristic, namely “going after Jesus.” I believe that the same concept applies in John 3:16 and I John 2:2. In John 3:16, I believe “world” refers to “whosever believeth” (i.e., all true believers, all the elect, not just Jewish believers), and in I John 2:2, I believe “world” refers to all true believers among the Gentiles (the “our” refers to Jewish believers, as Pink explains in the material in my previous post; ...).

H
 

H,

I have no doubt that Kosmos has 8 definitions, though I really would rather not look it up.  However, this kind of argument merely illustrates a need for better Bible teaching in PB groups these days.

The fact is H, that dictionary definitions only show you the options, it is the context that tells you which one is applicable.  I used to teach that to 6th graders.

Example:  "It has a very large trunk."  What is "it"?



It could be a tree, a car, an elephant, a telephone line, or a railroad track.  The dictionary is no help at all.

But a few words of context and viola! " It has a very large trunk.  It reaches out for peanuts across the barrier with it."

It is a large amorphous mass of elephant with one common characteristic....it likes peanuts.

Here's a little test for your idea...

"For God so loved the large indefinite mass of men who shared the common charastic of going after Jesus that he gave his only begotten son that whoever ( among the large indefinite mass of men who shared the common characteristic of going after Jesus) believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

One might wonder just how this crowd found out about Jesus and started "going after Him" before He was born??

"For God did not send the Son into the large indefinite mass of men who shared the common characteristic of going after Jesus to judge the large indefinite mass of men who shared the common characteristic of going after Jesus, but that the large indefinite mass of men who shared the common characteristic of going after Jesus might be saved by Him."

John 3:19-"this is the judgement, that light has come into the large indefinite mass of men who shared the common characteristic of going after Jesus, and men loved the darkness rather than the light, for their deeds were evil."

So the large indefinite mass of men who shared the common characteristic of going after Jesus both believed on Him and loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil.

Well, H, I think you need to take that one back to the drawing board for a while.

Thomas Maddux V. D.

[vernecarty]

Verne and H,

I am really pressed for time right now.  When I can I will send you some quotes from Calvin himself that demostrate why he rejected limited atonement.

Until then.

Tom

While it certainly will be interesting to see you quote Calvin to support your position, Tom, it will not affect my views, since they are based on what the Bible teaches, not on what Calvin taught.

H

Verne,

It beseemeth me that thou takest too firm a stance.  When thou believedst in the teaching of George Geftakys, was that not what the Bible taught as well?

Thomas Maddux, V.D.

Entirely possible Tom. I will tell you honestly that it is not the dough that I genuinely worry about my friend - it is the leaven...which is often difficult to discern...and insidious in its working. None of us are immune I'm afraid. May God truly heal and restore all...
Verne

[Oscar]

Verne and H,

I am really pressed for time right now.  When I can I will send you some quotes from Calvin himself that demostrate why he rejected limited atonement.

Until then.

Tom

While it certainly will be interesting to see you quote Calvin to support your position, Tom, it will not affect my views, since they are based on what the Bible teaches, not on what Calvin taught.

H

Verne,

It beseemeth me that thou takest too firm a stance.  When thou believedst in the teaching of George Geftakys, was that not what the Bible taught as well?

Thomas Maddux, V.D.

Entirely possible Tom. I will tell you honestly that it is not the dough that I genuinely worry about my friend - it is the leaven...which is often difficult to discern...and isidious in its working. None of us are immune I'm afraid. May God truly heal and restore all...
Verne

Verne,

When you speak of "leaven", what do you mean?

Thomas Maddux, V. D.

[al Hartman]

Verne,

When you speak of "leaven", what do you mean?

Thomas Maddux, V. D.

Tom,
     Just a guess, but maybe it's whatever was left after G&B took all the dough...

 ;)al

[jesusfreak]

Verne,

When you speak of "leaven", what do you mean?

Thomas Maddux, V. D.

Tom,
     Just a guess, but maybe it's whatever was left after G&B took all the dough...

 ;)al

hehe, now that was funny!

--
lucas

[vernecarty]

Verne and H,

I am really pressed for time right now.  When I can I will send you some quotes from Calvin himself that demostrate why he rejected limited atonement.

Until then.

Tom

While it certainly will be interesting to see you quote Calvin to support your position, Tom, it will not affect my views, since they are based on what the Bible teaches, not on what Calvin taught.

H

Verne,

It beseemeth me that thou takest too firm a stance.  When thou believedst in the teaching of George Geftakys, was that not what the Bible taught as well?

Thomas Maddux, V.D.

Entirely possible Tom. I will tell you honestly that it is not the dough that I genuinely worry about my friend - it is the leaven...which is often difficult to discern...and isidious in its working. None of us are immune I'm afraid. May God truly heal and restore all...
Verne

Verne,

When you speak of "leaven", what do you mean?

Thomas Maddux, V. D.

I  mean it in the general Biblical sense of sin that works deceitfully, and in the particular case of GG teaching that is unScriptural and satanic. The use of this particular Scriptural allegory is intended to teach us how difficult it is to deal selectively with spiritual corruption, i.e. a little leaven, leavens the entire lump as it were. The Biblical prescription is to toss it all out. Is it possible to separate physical leaven from any portion of dough to which it has been introduced? Much of what GG taught had this effect in my view Tom. See how often it still colors our view...at least it does mine...
Verne
p.s. Bones Festes and good to be back from Christmas in Barcelona!

[Oscar]

Verne,

Good to have you back on the BB.  You were missed.

I don't have a map in front of me right now...so tell me...is Barthelona in the part of Thpain where all thoth Cathtillainth live?

Regarding separating the leaven from the dough. If Osama Ben Bedsheet told you that today is Thursday, January 1, 2004 and that Mohammed is God's greatest prophet...would you throw everything out...or just that which is demonstrably false?

Quite a bit of what GG taught was just plain old Christian doctrine.  Things like the Trinity, eternal sonship, and inerrancy.

There was also much that I had to discard both before and after I left.  Partail rapturism, "so great" salvation, overcoming by works, and all his nonsense about church government...among other things too numerous to list.

So Verne, although it will take a lot of thought, we still must sift through and separate the true from the false as best we can.

God bleth,

Thomath Maddux

[editor]

Verne,

Good to have you back on the BB.  You were missed.

I don't have a map in front of me right now...so tell me...is Barthelona in the part of Thpain where all thoth Cathtillainth live?

Regarding separating the leaven from the dough. If Osama Ben Bedsheet told you that today is Thursday, January 1, 2004 and that Mohammed is God's greatest prophet...would you throw everything out...or just that which is demonstrably false?

Quite a bit of what GG taught was just plain old Christian doctrine.  Things like the Trinity, eternal sonship, and inerrancy.

There was also much that I had to discard both before and after I left.  Partail rapturism, "so great" salvation, overcoming by works, and all his nonsense about church government...among other things too numerous to list.

So Verne, although it will take a lot of thought, we still must sift through and separate the true from the false as best we can.

God bleth,

Thomath Maddux

Indeed, you are right Tom.  However, can we have a meeting that looks just like an Assembly meeting, have morning times just like Assembly morning times, outreaches, hymns, chapter summaries, brothers' houses, control, leadership structure and everything else......and get all the leaven out?

The grace that GG taught was basically an obligation to God, in which we must overcome so as not to let Him down.  It's not easy rooting out all this sort of thinking and its implications.  

I'll do it if I must, but I would rather have a new loaf!  Either way, God will see to it that I am not lost.  He is the Good Shepherd afterall!

Brent

[vernecarty]

Verne,

Good to have you back on the BB.  You were missed.

I don't have a map in front of me right now...so tell me...is Barthelona in the part of Thpain where all thoth Cathtillainth live?

Regarding separating the leaven from the dough. If Osama Ben Bedsheet told you that today is Thursday, January 1, 2004 and that Mohammed is God's greatest prophet...would you throw everything out...or just that which is demonstrably false?

Quite a bit of what GG taught was just plain old Christian doctrine.  Things like the Trinity, eternal sonship, and inerrancy.

There was also much that I had to discard both before and after I left.  Partail rapturism, "so great" salvation, overcoming by works, and all his nonsense about church government...among other things too numerous to list.

So Verne, although it will take a lot of thought, we still must sift through and separate the true from the false as best we can.

God bleth,

Thomath Maddux

No question some things are unequivocal. But therein lies the rub...many things are not!
How does one deal effectively with that which one often cannot see?(leaven). How pitifully blind so many of us were! Thank God for opening our eyes but do we yet see perfectly clearly? The success of men like GG terrifies me and invokes the spiritual "flight" response (o.k, obviously some "fright" and "fight" as well )
On a philosophical level, I would argue that the most effective, and therfore the most dangerous spiritual lie is that which closely resembles and is mixed with the truth. The centerpiece of the adversary's ultimate strategy is the convincing counterfeit. Those whom he destroys will actually believe the lie.  Admixture is indeed the hallmark of the false teacher (Jude 10; where have we seen this recently?)
  GG's employment of time-honored doctrines to sweeten the fatal poison he administered augments his crime. Every assembly leader who sat quitetly and permitted GG to teach a false doctrine of seventh day creation of man unchallenged, for example, stands in my view indicted as an unfaithful steward. The point I am making is at that point GG's deadly leaven had already done its fatal work- at the end these men were walking wounded and in many cases, apparently entirely unaware of their condition. They are in need of a Great Physician. Wars are won or lost in the will. GG dominated the will of all those around him, no exceptions! (despite the foolish and illusory claims of some after the fact to the contrary). Indomitable wills invariably ultimately departed. In a few exceptional cases God raised up warriors who picked up a broadsword.  Freedom in Christ above all is Spiritual empowerment  to choose! Think about it!!
I would recommend sampling naught from that clearly tainted stream...
Verne

p.s. Tom I want to thank you personally for the role you have played in helping so many of us to separate the wheat from the chaff...I have greatly benefited my friend.

[summer007]

Verne, I just wanted to make a comment on the flight or fight responce...(not that I'm not interested in Calvinism) When people are stressed = put on High Alert for extended periods of time...They're adrenal glands become exhausted....Its not compatable with human life..Even the Govt will only keep us on high alert for a short period of time or we become complacent and think they're Crying WOLF....Iwas just thinking of the Assembly Paranoia/Post Tramatic Stress Disoreder and the Mystery illnesses so many had in the group....Also Battered Womans Syndrome if people are too beaten down they cant make any move because they are continually thrown off  guard...in the Military its known as SHELLSHOCK....BTW I sure missed your posts too...They're very enlightening....Thanks....

[Oscar]

Verne,

Good to have you back on the BB.  You were missed.

I don't have a map in front of me right now...so tell me...is Barthelona in the part of Thpain where all thoth Cathtillainth live?

Regarding separating the leaven from the dough. If Osama Ben Bedsheet told you that today is Thursday, January 1, 2004 and that Mohammed is God's greatest prophet...would you throw everything out...or just that which is demonstrably false?

Quite a bit of what GG taught was just plain old Christian doctrine.  Things like the Trinity, eternal sonship, and inerrancy.

There was also much that I had to discard both before and after I left.  Partail rapturism, "so great" salvation, overcoming by works, and all his nonsense about church government...among other things too numerous to list.

So Verne, although it will take a lot of thought, we still must sift through and separate the true from the false as best we can.

God bleth,

Thomath Maddux

Indeed, you are right Tom.  However, can we have a meeting that looks just like an Assembly meeting, have morning times just like Assembly morning times, outreaches, hymns, chapter summaries, brothers' houses, control, leadership structure and everything else......and get all the leaven out?

The grace that GG taught was basically an obligation to God, in which we must overcome so as not to let Him down.  It's not easy rooting out all this sort of thinking and its implications.  

I'll do it if I must, but I would rather have a new loaf!  Either way, God will see to it that I am not lost.  He is the Good Shepherd afterall!

Brent

No we can't.  

The reason a meeting looks like the assembly is that the Plymouth Brethren ideas are still controlling everything, especially how the Bible is read.

Thomas Maddux

[editor]

Indeed, you are right Tom.  However, can we have a meeting that looks just like an Assembly meeting, have morning times just like Assembly morning times, outreaches, hymns, chapter summaries, brothers' houses, control, leadership structure and everything else......and get all the leaven out?Brent

No we can't.  

The reason a meeting looks like the assembly is that the Plymouth Brethren ideas are still controlling everything, especially how the Bible is read.

Thomas Maddux

I assume you were answering this rhetorical question.  Obviously, I am in agreement with you.

There is a church up here that morphed out of a Brethren gathering.  The have similiar problems, to a much lessor extent,  as the Assemblies did.  Personally, the last church I would choose to attend would be one with PB roots.  (of course, I am not familiar with everything out there, but from what I do know, PB's leave the door wide open for problems that are somewhat peculiar to them.)

Brent

[glossyibis]

Dear Brent and Tom.
     Hey brothers , please ease up on the brethren assemblies. I have been in one since 92 when I parted company with GG and his oligarchy.  All those that I have visited here in the midwest and in Romania are great places.  There are more than 630 assemblies in Romania now and most have been raised up since 1989. The gypsy believers in the village assemblies are full of light and the love of God.
I have been asked to do reports of my Romanin visits in 4 assemblies in the midwest and they are wonderful places to fellowship. We have an American family from an assembly taking care of 100 children in our  orphanage near Bucharest. Our missionary handbook is filled with God honoring people in the most difficult places in the world.
    George did not learn his contolling ways from the brethren. We don't have any of that at Emmaus Bible Chapel or any of the other assemblies in the St.louis area. George was a controller before he ever met the brethren.
     If you ever make it to st.Louis , you can stay at my home and go to a great assembly meeting with me.
Steve Harris
Ps. you are right the brethren do have their peculiar problems, but show me a church with no problems and I'll show you a church with no people in it.