Where is Mark Miller??????

[M2]

It is very sad reading all these comments from everyone regarding my dad.  I think it is time that everyone really realizes how George had us all screwed over.  My dad looked up to George as his dad and believe me, my dad did not know what George was doing behind the "scenes".  My dad does realize he has made many mistakes, but we cant just keep going on in life with a guilty conscience.  God has forgiven him and all of us for all of our rude and obsurd comments, as well as the many mistakes we have made in life.  I just wish we would all come together and forgive and forget.  My dad gave SOOOOOOOOOOO much to the assembly and didnt realize how much things effected those around him, until now - especially his relationship with his family!   There are many things now that I see would have been different in our family if it werent for the influence of the assembly and George.  It breaks my heart to see and hear what people have to say about him.  I know people will always talk bad, but it would be so great if we could join together and just love one another for who they are and not all the mistakes we think other make or have made.  By the way, my family is doing very well since the "break-up".  Thanks for asking.  My parents still live in Fullerton and attend an EV Free.  They love it and are finding new friends they can get to know.  I recently got married and live with my husband in Rancho Santa Margarita.  My brother is doing well and lives in Fullerton as well.  I hope this might explain a bit about how I feel and what is going on currently. 

Christina Elmore (a.k.a. Miller)

Dear Christina,

Congratulations on your marriage, and thank you for the update re. your family.

Please don't take the comments, about your Dad, personally.  As an AK you had no choice re. your place of fellowship.  But your Dad did.

As a leader and elder and a worker he was directly involved with spreading and supporting George's ministry.  So, yes, I would expect that some sort of public statement would be expected from him.

I personally forgive anyone who has repented.  But I do not believe that it good for any of us to deny that we
- were affected by the Geftakys ministry
- are responsible for the part we played in promoting it.

Marcia

[Mark C.]

Hello Christina  !

   This is Mark Campbell, and I wonder if you remember me?----- I'm sure that you remember my two girls, Deborah and Rebekah! 

   (For those unaware, we lived with the Miller's for several years in the Valley and have only happy memories of Ben and Christina!)


   Congratulations on your marriage!   Deborah is married, and has 5 kids, while Becky is trying to catch up with only 3!  (Sindy and I are very proud Grandparents now).

   I'm sorry that you have found some of these old posts offensive re. your Dad, but I think Joe and Marcia have pretty much put these into perspective.

  I did talk to your Dad probably over a year ago and it was good to hear his voice.  He was willing to meet with me, but I haven't been near Fullerton for quite a long time.  He's not into email, or we could've had a nice long talk by now.

  As Marcia said, the issue with your Dad (and all former leaders close to GG) is not some kind of personal grudge, but the need to resolve issues surrounding his role as a very prominent leader in the Assembly.  Assembly problems are much greater than just GG's philandering, and go back a very long way.

   The honest facing by your Dad re. his part in that abusive system is just as important for his own spiritual health, as it is for those who were victims of Assembly abuse.

 While we were all members, the leaders bear a much greater responsibility for what went on in the group, and they have, for the most part, been the most reluctant to come forward and talk.

    I only wish God's best for your Dad, Mom, Ben, and you!  Thanks for taking the time to visit the BB to share your views.  Please greet your family for me when you get the chance.

                                                         God Bless,  Mark C.

[vernecarty]

  My dad looked up to George as his dad

Clearly George knew and understood this quite well. Mark's situation was not unique in this regard Christina.
George would appont to leadership only men who fawned over him and whom he felt he could control.
George's role as Mark's surrogate Father is well known and it did indeed put Mark at a disadvantage in dealing with Geroge's sin. While it is understandable, it is not a legitimate excuse.
A man called to serve as an elder in the church has a responsibility that transcends family.
His allegiance must be first and foremost to Jesus Christ- no matter what the cost.

and believe me, my dad did not know what George was doing behind the "scenes". 

If your Dad himself were to make this statement, it would be difficult for me to accept it but I suppose without direct evidence to the contrary I would have to do so.
 If this statement is true Christina, and frankly, I doubt your Dad, if he is honest, would confirm that it were, I would find it a greater heart-break than his failure to act on what he did know...
God bless and keep you and your family.
Verne

[al Hartman]

and believe me, my dad did not know what George was doing behind the "scenes".

 If this statement is true Christina, and frankly, I doubt your Dad, if he is honest, would confirm that it were, I would find it a greater heart-break than his failure to act on what he did know...

Verne, please explain how either situation would be better or worse than the other...

al

[vernecarty]

 If this statement is true Christina, and frankly, I doubt your Dad, if he is honest, would confirm that it were, I would find it a greater heart-break than his failure to act on what he did know...



Verne, please explain how either situation would be better or worse than the other...

al

Just think about the two possibilites.
1.That Mark Miller and company served closely with a man like George Geftakys for thirty odd years and were blissfully ignorant of what kind of man he was. What he was doing "behind the scenes" in entirely connected with who he was.
2.That they did know the kind of man he was but for whatever their reasons, failed to deal with him as men of true spiritual stature would and should have.
Which of these two possibilites is derserving of more pity?
I remained in a situation of clear compomise for about five years and I am still deeply ashamed of it although it was nothing like Geftakys...I will one day have to give an account. It would be an act of insanity and insult to His glory to tell the Lord -  "but I didn't know...!"  I did...
Verne

[brian]

in her response on her own website sondra said some things that i think are helpful in maintaining a balanced perspective regarding former leaders, quoted here:

Hi Christina,

I knew you dad, Mark, and your mom, Diane many years ago when they were in the Midwest.  I know them pretty well and love them dearly.

Christina, you should not be surprised to find a lack of quick and simple responses to your call to "forgiveness."  Many have done what you have done and have received complicated explanations as to why they should not make forgiveness so simple.  There is a legitimate time-frame when one has been offended for healing.  There is also a stubbornness that is not legitimate and actually puts the soul of the grudge holder into prison.  I am glad to hear your thoughts regarding your dad.  I think it is helpful.

You have described the Mark Miller  I know and love and respect.  I spoke with Mark about 9 months ago.  I hinted that he come on the boards and discuss some of the subjects that others were concerned about.  I do not remember his exact words, but it seemed that his job had him up to his elbows in alligators and that he and Diane were trying to get some peace and sort things out regarding Assembly history.

He did give an account of many he had personally spoken with and was working hard at making right the wrongs that he did or participated in, but his emphasis was that of reconciling "one on one" and felt that anyone who had questions should come to him with them and should try to work things out personally.  He expressed a willingness to be open and talk to any who wanted to talk.

He didn't say this, but I am saying that I would hope that he would not entertain those who simply want to insult and ridicule Mark or any of his family.  Mark told me directly that he was very interested in offering apology, explanation, forgiveness - on a person to person basis.  He admitted to me his wrongs and asked for my forgiveness.  He asked me if he had offended me in any kind of way, etc.   

I can only imagine how it must be to be Mark Miller.  I probably know him as well or better than most Assembly folks and I know the Mark who gave his whole life for the "saints."  I can attest to the fact that he did not know what George was doing in the shadows.  I believe Mark.  People have said that he should have known.  Easy to solve the detective mystery when you've seen the end of the movie. 

btw sondra, you were only suspended for five days, which have long since expired.

[brian]

and, just to help keep things balanced, here is a quote from rachel's original paper concerning mark's response to the horrific family situation she was raised in:

In July of 2000 my parents went to meet with Mark Miller and Dan Notti in Ventura.  This was the first time Mark would acknowledge to Judy that he knew she had been hit.  Mark and Dan sat there as David raged at Judy.  David’s rage so upset Judy that she had to run to the bathroom to be sick.  When Judy returned, Mark and Dan never addressed this display by David.  They had no words of compassion or help for Judy.  The end result of that meeting was Judy was no longer a worker even though David was to continue as a worker. David was not held to any meaningfull accountability, even though the "leaders" knew he was abusing Judy.

i stayed in mark's house for a couple weeks as a teen one time, and i thought he was a great guy. but since growing up i have realized that its possible for a great guy to be weak at the wrong moment, or make a bad decision. and when a great guy has the kind of power and influence over people's lives that a leader of a cult does, terrible things happen, even when their intentions are good. terrible things that sometimes leave people with lifelong emotional or even physical scars.

its impossible for someone to reconcile with a bb or any large mix of reasonable and unreasonable people, and i think mark is right to reconcile with people one-on-one. i also think that when a former leader makes the effort to write up some sort of open letter that helps to clear the air, a lot of people benefit that they will never have the opportunity to reconcile with in person.

most of these top leaders experienced having their life's work disintegrate beneath them - something most of them genuinely believed in. i know what that feels like, and i feel compassion for what that must be like for them.

so i try to help angry people show compassion, without showing a lack of compassion towards what they went through. and i try to help passive people stand up to those who cause suffering and oppression. and i try to help former oppressors see the need to do what they can to make their oppression right. and hopefully when i am angry, passive and oppressive someone does the same for me, because i have been all of those things and doubtlessly will be again.

[al Hartman]

Just think about the two possibilites.
1.That Mark Miller and company served closely with a man like George Geftakys for thirty odd years and were blissfully ignorant of what kind of man he was. What he was doing "behind the scenes" in entirely connected with who he was.
2.That they did know the kind of man he was but for whatever their reasons, failed to deal with him as men of true spiritual stature would and should have.

My time in Fullerton/the Valley is ancient history and things went from bad to worse after I left, from all I have gathered.  But, having spent the first decade of the assembly's existence as a member of the "inner circle" (not the "innermost," but close), I can attest that there was nothing "blissful" about it, but there was a great deal of ignorance about what went on.  George was both secretive and oppressive.  Ignorant men, myself one of the most so, lived in fear that to doubt or challenge George was tantamount to enmity against God, Who we believed had called George as the next successive apostle of Christ on earth.

None of us were "men of true spiritual stature" in the sense of having a close walk and familiarity with the Person and character of Christ-- George did not, and doubtless could not, pick such men to follow him, for they would not have done so.  We wanted to serve Christ, and were doing so to the best of our understanding and ability, according to the direction we received from "God's man," the teacher we belived the Lord had sent us in response to our prayers.

Which of these two possibilites is derserving of more pity?
I remained in a situation of clear compomise for about five years and I am still deeply ashamed of it although it was nothing like Geftakys...I will one day have to give an account. It would be an act of insanity and insult to His glory to tell the Lord -  "but I didn't know...!"  I did...
Verne

Your experience bears no resemblance (that I can discern) to that of the assembly under-leaders, at least in my days there.  We were not "in a situation of clear compromise" as you confess to have been, for we "did not" know.  And, frankly, whether you or anyone else decides to "pity" us is your/their concern-- ours is accepting the admonition and correction that the Holy Spirit ministers to us from the Word of God (through you or any source), and responding accordingly.  As you suggested in an earlier post, unless you have direct evidence by which to accuse, you are called upon to accept our confessions.

al

PS-- That you are "still deeply ashamed" of your past performance would suggest that you might profit by a refamiliarization with such concepts as are held forth in Romans 8:1, 9, 28-39 and 1John 1:5-7, 9.  There is no reason to wait for "one day" to "give an account."

[vernecarty]

None of us were "men of true spiritual stature" in the sense of having a close walk and familiarity with the Person and character of Christ-- George did not, and doubtless could not, pick such men to follow him, for they would not have done so.  We wanted to serve Christ, and were doing so to the best of our understanding and ability, according to the direction we received from "God's man," the teacher we belived the Lord had sent us in response to our prayers.


Your experience bears no resemblance (that I can discern) to that of the assembly under-leaders, at least in my days there.  We were not "in a situation of clear compromise" as you confess to have been, for we "did not" know. 

There is a difference between not knowing something, and not knowing what to do about it.
I find it astonishing for example, that some of the men who started out with Geftakys knew him to be a patent liar yet still followed him and aided and abetted his recruitment of others equally gullible, myself included.
If after serving with George Geftakys for any length of time, even the greatest dullard still held the opinion that he was a godly man I must conclude that they have no idea what the word means. In that sense I guess ignorance could be cited as an excuse.

 

PS-- That you are "still deeply ashamed" of your past performance would suggest that you might profit by a refamiliarization with such concepts as are held forth in Romans 8:1, 9, 28-39 and 1John 1:5-7, 9.  There is no reason to wait for "one day" to "give an account."

The Lord has His own reasons for putting me in the situation that He did.
My conclusion about my tenure is the same as the one I have drawn regarding the men around
Geftakys. We were unfit for the callling.
I can honestly say that I tried to serve to the best of my ability. In view of the Scriputural standard so clearly laid out before us, I also had to conclude that I was not faithful and have confessed it.
You are quite mistaken over the matter of having to give an account Al.
When it comes to those appointed to leadership in the church, each one will be specifically required to do so and that at a time that is future.
We would all be wise to know and understand the difference before we get into the Lord's presence my friend.
Verne

p.s Please understand Al that my discussion of this topic has never had as its intention just condemnation of people serving with Geftakys. It seems to me that the key issue is what we can learn from what happened so as not to repeat our errors. We will never do so as long as we hang on to our alabis and excuses for why we failed. It is a good thing to feel shame for having enabled the likes of George Geftakys...a good thing!

[al Hartman]

Verne, please understand that I do not regard this discussion as a debate.  I have no axe to grind, and certainly no grounds upon which to excuse myself of anything.  To date, I have yet to be accused of any wrongdoing of which I was not actually guilty...

There is a difference between not knowing something, and not knowing what to do about it.
I find it astonishing for example, that some of the men who started out with Geftakys knew him to be a patent liar yet still followed him and aided and abetted his recruitment of others equally gullible, myself included.

You seem to find it equally astonishing that some who started out with him did not know him to be a patent liar, but that is the case.  In every event in which I questioned his words or conduct, either in his presence or to others, I was quickly persuaded that it was my perception that was askew, and not what he was up to.  You think you were gullible?-- I was far moreso.

If after serving with George Geftakys for any length of time, even the greatest dullard still held the opinion that he was a godly man I must conclude that they have no idea what the word means. In that sense I guess ignorance could be cited as an excuse.

Precisely my point in my previous post.  I can unhesitatingly claim title as "the greatest dullard" (and far worse) in those days, and have only begun to realize in the past three years what constitutes godliness in a man.
 

The Lord has His own reasons for putting me in the situation that He did.
My conclusion about my tenure is the same as the one I have drawn regarding the men around
Geftakys. We were unfit for the callling.

OK-- thanks for clarifying that.  Certainly we were unfit for the calling.  But let's not forget that our Lord doesn't call us because of our fitness for His calling.  I.e. He doesn't call the gifted because they have what He needs-- He calls the very dregs of humanity and gives us what we need to be of service to Him.

I can honestly say that I tried to serve to the best of my ability. In view of the Scriputural standard so clearly laid out before us, I also had to conclude that I was not faithful and have confessed it.

Again, it was not the best of our abilities that were called for...  To be convicted of unfaithfulness (sin) and to confess it is a normal part of the ongoing process of our sanctification.

You are quite mistaken over the matter of having to give an account Al.
When it comes to those appointed to leadership in the church, each one will be specifically required to do so and that at a time that is future.
We would all be wise to know and understand the difference before we get into the Lord's presence my friend.
Verne

I think you and I are looking at different facets of the same Gem, Verne.  As stated, the cycle of sin, confession and repentance, and forgiveness continues from the moment we become aware of it until the end of this earthly life.  It is the very means by which leaders become fit and maintain their fitness to lead.  None of us becomes permanently sinless until our glorification, but the close and steady maintenance of forgiveness and cleansing is both the normal life of a believer and the example to be set by a leader.  In His final judgment of His under-shepherds, the pastors and teachers, etc., it will be the faithful, ongoing and consistent exercise of exchanging one's own nature and strength for His that will matter, not (God forbid) confessed sin for which He has withheld forgiveness.

p.s Please understand Al that my discussion of this topic has never had as its intention just condemnation of people serving with Geftakys.

I very much appreciate your stating this, Verne-- I confess that I had sometimes wondered...

It seems to me that the key issue is what we can learn from what happened so as not to repeat our errors. We will never do so as long as we hang on to our alabis and excuses for why we failed. It is a good thing to feel shame for having enabled the likes of George Geftakys...a good thing!

Amen.  I only ask that we all be careful to not confuse simple explanation for alibi & excuse.  I for one have no excuses to offer concerning the conduct of my life, but I do believe that honest explanation of the events and the attitudes that shaped them may be of great benefit to those who are willing to consider them for what they are.  As for the shame, I agree that it is a good thing, which should work in us a repentance not to be repented of...

al