One Year Ago, Today

[editor]

I shudder to think of Verne in the Meeting when 7th day was taught. I also wonder how long it would of taken me after ceasing to breathe for a second to bolt for the door in Flight and Fright...And Brent had you not taken Action do you think things would just be Business as Usual or do you think Delieverence would of come from someone else??This is Our Time ..Our Term here on Earth..If we Fail to Speak Out...God will bring Delieverence from someone else!!! If you have Fainted with the Footman.What will you do in the Floodgates of Jordan..Time to Speak for those Appointed to Death or to Weak/Beat-Up to Speak for themselves.....

Hi Summer,

The 7th day creation of man was taught several times, from what I understand.  I had already left when he began this aspect of his Blurred Heavenly Vision.  

As for God delivering coming from someone else, I guess we will never know the answer to that.  I believe that it could be the case, certainly it is no hard thing for God.  However, I also believe that I was born to do this.  I know this sounds kind of cheeky, but I don't say it with an ounce of pride.

I didn't dream it up, plan it, or strategize.  I woke up one morning and knew it was the right thing to do.  As others have testified, I wasn't exactly getting overwhelming support, even from people who had George's number.  

I think that if we want to go into "what if's" the real question to ask is, What if Rachel had decided not to tell her story?  What if Judy didn't leave David?

While it is true that I badgered Rachel for months to post her story on the web,  (She wrote it more than a year before it got posted) it was her story that seperated the cracks and got a big piece of the roof to cave in.

I guess you can give me credit for motivating her.  Her success, in turn, motivated Judy to say something.  There is much more to be said, and I wish someone would say it.  Perhaps the next round of deliverance will come from another unlikely source.

I believe that it would have been business as usual, were it not for the website.  Sure, there would have been fewer saints, but the structure would have been intact and they would have been looking toward the future, instead of worrying about the past.

The main point is that if we take the attitude,  "I don't need to say/do anything.  God will deliver," we are pretty much useless and faithless.  All the talk about faith, standing for righteousness, spiritual warfare; it's all a bunch of hypocritical smack talking, if we back away from our opportunities like cowards.

That's what I was, a coward.  That's what the leaders are/were, a bunch of cowards.  George is the king of cowards!  He didn't have the gumption to say one word to preserve what he told us was The Testimony to Jesus!  He could be called a hireling, who flees when the wolf comes, except he was the wolf!

Paul stood up to the Gnostics and the Judaizers.  If George believed his own words, or if he had the courage of a little girl, he would have fought for God's Testimony.  The reason he didn't is because he had no moral leg to stand on, and is entirely devoid of courage!  No grit, no conviction, nothing!  He is to be pitied and loathed.  Even so, I pray for his repentance/salvation.  He alone can undo the damage he has done to so many.  Even George can be redeemed.

Whether he is or not, before he passes on, will answer many questions that we all have, namely, "Was God in this at all, or did He just keep me through my time in the cult?"

Like Aslan told Lucy, in The Voyage of The Dawntreader,  "It is never given to us to know what would have happened."

Brent

[editor]

Two years ago mid-February at the last ECC, TimG spoke of his leanings towards a 'super-human' Christ belief. 3 assemblies were present at that time. I wonder if you and Verne had been there how you would have re-acted. In the past year I have questioned a number of people, including the local LBs here, and, except for Claude and myself, no on remembers TimG saying such a thing. What does that tell you of our spiritual condition. I include myself, because though we (Claude and I) queried Tim after the meeting, we excused him by saying something like 'he is influenced by his dad'. That should have turned the light on, don't you think?

Marcia

Marcia, you keep contradicting yourself.  The Assembly is Ottawa was not supposed to have been influenced by George Geftakys.  But his son came out there and taught, and you concluded that he was influenced by George???  That simply can't be, because George didn't influence the Assembly in Ottawa.  

I think it's time to give Armand the credit for what Ottawa has become.  George didn't have any influence, so Armand should be held accountable.  That is what they imply when they say "George didn't influence us."

Like I told someone earlier today, reasoning with these people is analogous to dealing with heroine addiction by handing out brochures to addicts that warn them that heroine can cause drowsiness, which makes it unsafe to operate a motor vehicle.  I don't think they'll be too influenced by those brochures!

Perhaps it's time to roust some of these Canadian addicts from under the bridge, eh?  Throw 'em into the tank and let 'em get the shakes.

Brent

[summer007]

I don't want to get an Attiude here ..But is anyone planning a Class Action Lawsuit??? Just to see where Funds went ...If all the bases are covered by GG/BG they should have nothing to worry about..But if Money was Extorted under False Pretences and not used for purposes intended ..what does it say in Rom 13..If you do Evil Beware He does not bare the Sword in Vain...Just to get answers course any money recovered ..If Fault be found could go to charitable organizations/missions etc..And then again if GG/BG show everything was used for here and abroad documented their off the Hook so to speak..these are basic Laws of the Land  God has set up for Our Good.I dont think 5th amendment would be applicable in a corruption case like this ...Of Course to be Fair Innocent until proven Guilty in the Courts...Over the Years I was amazed no one had sued Him...And that he could get away with this...(I'm sure there would be lots of reluctant witnesses and perjury laws would apply or should we just count it all Loss for Christ?)

[M2]

Joe's suggestion for a name for the Ottawa assembly would be quite fitting 'We Ottawa Were Not Influenced By George"

I sent Armand Delila's story and wrote to him, but I have been honored by the 'silent treatment' yet again, so I acn only speculate here. Yes Armand continues to excuse his past behavior, possibly something like 'we sincerely believed we were doing the right thing'. He has not yet apologized to Delila. AND other members of the "in-crowd" continue to make excuses for him after reading Delila's story (which I sent them). The people like it so...

Marcia

[Scott McCumber]

As for God delivering coming from someone else, I guess we will never know the answer to that.  I believe that it could be the case, certainly it is no hard thing for God.  However, I also believe that I was born to do this.  I know this sounds kind of cheeky, but I don't say it with an ounce of pride.

I didn't dream it up, plan it, or strategize.  I woke up one morning and knew it was the right thing to do.  As others have testified, I wasn't exactly getting overwhelming support, even from people who had George's number.  

Brent

All right, let's see if I can formulate a halfway cogent question here.

Brent, you say you were born for a very specific purpose (or at least, this task was appointed you at/before birth). How specific do you believe God's plan is for our lives?

"For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." Eph. 2:10 (I opened my bible exactly to this verse which I was looking for, therefore it must be a sign that I am on the right track, huh?   ).

Are you saying that there are certain tasks that have been prepared for us to do? Or just generic good works - witnessing according to opportunity, etc.

What does God expect us to do to discover these specific tasks? Does he speak in that "still small voice" that whispered in your heart when you woke up?

Do you see where I am going with this? I feel that if you meant that literally you opened up a serious can of worms. Which is OK, I like worms, but can you elaborate a bit?

Thanks,

Scott

[editor]

As for God delivering coming from someone else, I guess we will never know the answer to that.  I believe that it could be the case, certainly it is no hard thing for God.  However, I also believe that I was born to do this.  I know this sounds kind of cheeky, but I don't say it with an ounce of pride.

I didn't dream it up, plan it, or strategize.  I woke up one morning and knew it was the right thing to do.  As others have testified, I wasn't exactly getting overwhelming support, even from people who had George's number.  

Brent

All right, let's see if I can formulate a halfway cogent question here.

Brent, you say you were born for a very specific purpose (or at least, this task was appointed you at/before birth). How specific do you believe God's plan is for our lives?

"For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." Eph. 2:10 (I opened my bible exactly to this verse which I was looking for, therefore it must be a sign that I am on the right track, huh?   ).

Are you saying that there are certain tasks that have been prepared for us to do? Or just generic good works - witnessing according to opportunity, etc.

What does God expect us to do to discover these specific tasks? Does he speak in that "still small voice" that whispered in your heart when you woke up?

Do you see where I am going with this? I feel that if you meant that literally you opened up a serious can of worms. Which is OK, I like worms, but can you elaborate a bit?

Thanks,

Scott

I guess in some ways my statement does open up a barrel full of worms.  I didn't mean it in that way, so let me clarify a little bit.

I am not saying that I believe each of us has a task list from God, that we can discover by some mystical or esoteric way.  I don't believe that at all.

I do believe, however, that I was born, grew up, and was shaped by all the events in my life in order to bring me to the present time.  My experience, temperment, talents and gifts were all in place 14 months ago, and I started the website.

I don't know how else to put it.  There is certainly scriptural backing for this choice, but that isn't what made me do it.  I don't think that everyone should do this, nor do I assume that it will be successfull in the future, although it certainly could be.  

Something had to be done, and the only thing that ever worked was the RickRoss website, where I had authored most of the articles.  This whole endeavor was put in front of my face one morning, without fore-thought.  I just knew it was the right thing to do, but I also chose to do it.

I didn't tell someone, "God told me to do this,"  I just told them what I was going to do.  I had total conviction that it was the right thing to do.  In hindsight, when I see how my memory, and confrontational nature came into play, I concluded that I was prepared to do this from birth.

I may be wrong of course...it wouldn't be the first time.

Brent

[sfortescue]

How specific do you believe God's plan is for our lives?

God is much more actively involved in things than we think.  He conceals his activities because our faith in him is important to him.

"For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." Eph. 2:10 (I opened my bible exactly to this verse which I was looking for, therefore it must be a sign that I am on the right track, huh?   ).

...

What does God expect us to do to discover these specific tasks?

Once someone asked me about recognizing God's leading, and I replied that I usually recognize his leading after I fail to heed it and then later learn what I should have done.

Remember that it is not difficult for God to let us know what he wants by whatever means he chooses.  If he is silent, it is because we already know what we need to know.

In the C. S. Lewis' story, The Silver Chair, the children missed seeing the inscription because it was in a different form than what they expected.  Likewise, what the Lord says to us has ramifications beyond what we expect.

[Scott McCumber]

As for God delivering coming from someone else, I guess we will never know the answer to that.  I believe that it could be the case, certainly it is no hard thing for God.  However, I also believe that I was born to do this.  I know this sounds kind of cheeky, but I don't say it with an ounce of pride.

I didn't dream it up, plan it, or strategize.  I woke up one morning and knew it was the right thing to do.  As others have testified, I wasn't exactly getting overwhelming support, even from people who had George's number.  

Brent

All right, let's see if I can formulate a halfway cogent question here.

Brent, you say you were born for a very specific purpose (or at least, this task was appointed you at/before birth). How specific do you believe God's plan is for our lives?

"For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." Eph. 2:10 (I opened my bible exactly to this verse which I was looking for, therefore it must be a sign that I am on the right track, huh?   ).

Are you saying that there are certain tasks that have been prepared for us to do? Or just generic good works - witnessing according to opportunity, etc.

What does God expect us to do to discover these specific tasks? Does he speak in that "still small voice" that whispered in your heart when you woke up?

Do you see where I am going with this? I feel that if you meant that literally you opened up a serious can of worms. Which is OK, I like worms, but can you elaborate a bit?

Thanks,

Scott

I guess in some ways my statement does open up a barrel full of worms.  I didn't mean it in that way, so let me clarify a little bit.

I am not saying that I believe each of us has a task list from God, that we can discover by some mystical or esoteric way.  I don't believe that at all.

I do believe, however, that I was born, grew up, and was shaped by all the events in my life in order to bring me to the present time.  My experience, temperment, talents and gifts were all in place 14 months ago, and I started the website.

I don't know how else to put it.  There is certainly scriptural backing for this choice, but that isn't what made me do it.  I don't think that everyone should do this, nor do I assume that it will be successfull in the future, although it certainly could be.  

Something had to be done, and the only thing that ever worked was the RickRoss website, where I had authored most of the articles.  This whole endeavor was put in front of my face one morning, without fore-thought.  I just knew it was the right thing to do, but I also chose to do it.

I didn't tell someone, "God told me to do this,"  I just told them what I was going to do.  I had total conviction that it was the right thing to do.  In hindsight, when I see how my memory, and confrontational nature came into play, I concluded that I was prepared to do this from birth.

I may be wrong of course...it wouldn't be the first time.

Brent

I kind of thought that's what you'd come back with. That's much more in line with what I have come to believe.

I don't believe any one person is uniquely qualified for any particular task but certainly God is able to put the right person in the right place at the right time for His purposes.

If you had resisted He would have raised up someone else. Maybe He called others previously and they resisted and you were the one raised up!?

Hmm. Limitless threads here. Just curious.

Scott

[editor]

I kind of thought that's what you'd come back with. That's much more in line with what I have come to believe.

I don't believe any one person is uniquely qualified for any particular task but certainly God is able to put the right person in the right place at the right time for His purposes.

If you had resisted He would have raised up someone else. Maybe He called others previously and they resisted and you were the one raised up!?

Hmm. Limitless threads here. Just curious.

Scott

Perhaps I shouldn't have done it, and someone else was being prepared to do something better.  In that case, I guess I forced God's hand to move in the direction I wanted it to go?  

To me, there are a few things that are undeniable:

God used the website in a powerful way.  

I was not born to be a member of a vocal ensemble, or to do interior decorating.

I am well equipped for this type of thing.  One of my favorite things in the whole world is to be on the witness stand.  I simply love to be cross examined.  I have been grilled for over 3 hours by an attorney before, and it seemed like 10 minutes of condensed fun.  If I could get paid to argue, I'd work 80 hours a week.  I love this sort of thing.

As long as I know my subject well, like chiropractic, sailing, the Assembly, or breakfast cereal trivia, I look forward to matching wits against any and all comers.  That's why I say I was born to do this.

However, I'm sure my critics are cringing at these words.  Too bad we can't go back and undo everything to test other theories.     Humpty Dumpty can't be repaired, and I'm not sorry he fell of the wall.

I am sorry for some things however, and I posted them elsewhere on the website.

Brent

[Scott McCumber]

I kind of thought that's what you'd come back with. That's much more in line with what I have come to believe.

I don't believe any one person is uniquely qualified for any particular task but certainly God is able to put the right person in the right place at the right time for His purposes.

If you had resisted He would have raised up someone else. Maybe He called others previously and they resisted and you were the one raised up!?

Hmm. Limitless threads here. Just curious.

Scott

Perhaps I shouldn't have done it, and someone else was being prepared to do something better.  In that case, I guess I forced God's hand to move in the direction I wanted it to go?  

To me, there are a few things that are undeniable:

God used the website in a powerful way.  

I was not born to be a member of a vocal ensemble, or to do interior decorating.

I am well equipped for this type of thing.  One of my favorite things in the whole world is to be on the witness stand.  I simply love to be cross examined.  I have been grilled for over 3 hours by an attorney before, and it seemed like 10 minutes of condensed fun.  If I could get paid to argue, I'd work 80 hours a week.  I love this sort of thing.

As long as I know my subject well, like chiropractic, sailing, the Assembly, or breakfast cereal trivia, I look forward to matching wits against any and all comers.  That's why I say I was born to do this.

However, I'm sure my critics are cringing at these words.  Too bad we can't go back and undo everything to test other theories.     Humpty Dumpty can't be repaired, and I'm not sorry he fell of the wall.

I am sorry for some things however, and I posted them elsewhere on the website.

Brent

It's obvious to me. Right person. Right place. Right time.

No, I don't think you forced God's hand nor do I think you believe that either! Just thought I'd throw that part in there before someone else latches on it out of context.

S

[Scott McCumber]

When Steve left, he wrote some excellent articles analyzing the many weird ideas taught by GG. Thomas Maddux

I want to ask a simple question and that most sincerely. Tom the operative phrase here is when Steve left .
Why is it that only after leaving that so many of us brought critical faculty to bear on what we had been listening to and at least tacitly agreeing with for so many years?
Did we all suddenly become smarter after our departure?
More discerning? What was it?
After all George just kept saying the same things he had said in all our hearing for years and we never moved to challenge the validity of any of it; at least most of us did not. We did all our talking after our departure...!
I have often wondered what I would have done had I been present when George opened his Bible and decalred that man was created on the 7 'th day...
I can guess what answer will quickly come to mind. Resist it, Really think about this, please...
Verne
p.s I do realise there are some people who still maintain there is nothing wrong with what George Geftakys taught...you are excused....

Verne,

As others have shed quite a bit of light on your question already, I will just float a couple of ideas.

 . . . 2. In my case, I was afraid that I would "stumble the little ones".
I realize now that this was planted in my thoughts by GG's ministry, but at the time it was a very real fear. . . .

God bless,

Thomas Maddux

Tom,

When my dad left, this was his sincere belief as well. There weren't many (if any) of those who stayed that sought him out afterwards, but he was very reluctant to talk about why he left for that exact same reason (same jargon, too).

At that time he wasn't leaving because he was aware of the depths of the depravity in the Geftakys household - though it was beginning to dawn on him. And while he could see dimly that the Assembly doctrine was becoming Geftakysism, those ideas were not completely clear to him.

What he wanted was George's authority eliminated so the local Assemblies and the families therein could live free in Christ. It wasn't until later that the other errors in doctrine slowly became evident to him.

His exit was probably not as painful as the Irons' because he had several families stand with him, but even so it was very fractious and it broke his heart. However, there was the delightful compensation of being FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! for the first time in almost 20 years.

I wish he would contribute here, but he won't. Even if he could turn on a computer by himself or type his name on a keyboard!

Scott

[al Hartman]

Jack,

     Your last several posts on this thread are revelatory in a unique way.  Your reflections and insights have blessed me, and I pray they will bless many others.
     Please continue...

God bless,
al

[Scott McCumber]

Jack,

     Your last several posts on this thread are revelatory in a unique way.  Your reflections and insights have blessed me, and I pray they will bless many others.
     Please continue...

God bless,
al

Jack,

Ditto. This is an interesting perspective and you relate it well.

Thanks,

S

[editor]

1/22/04

One year ago today (Wed 1/22/03):  Early Wednesday morning I wrote out a post for the bulletin board and finally decided to put it on the web.  The post was the first in a thread entitled “I’m Waiting for Answers”, in which I asked the SLO leaders to account for the discrepancies between their accounts of what happened and the accounts of those on the website.  It took me so long to work up the nerve to post it since I knew it would definitely rock the assembly boat.  It was one thing to ask questions in private conversations with leaders (as long as one accepted their answers), but quite another to ask them publicly.  Many people had addressed these same issues PRIVATELY, but to no avail.  Brent and others had already begun to address the issues PUBLICLY, so in a sense I was not breaking new ground.  However, I was someone who just days prior had pledged my loyalty to the assembly during my preaching.  I was still an insider, yet my perspective and behavior were rapidly and profoundly changing.  With 3 exceptions I can think of, the only people from SLO that had PUBLICLY challenged the leaders had left long before Jan 2003.  By posting on the bulletin board I was showing that I, an insider, was not going to walk away in silence when I saw what was going on.  I was openly challenging the leaders from inside the assembly (I had no plans of leaving the assembly just yet).

That evening we had a special meeting to discuss the future of the assembly.  We discussed possible changes we could make in order to properly respond to the recent developments.  I had already begun to regret posting my questions, as I was conditioned to reject the thought of doing anything that could in any way damage the leaders’ credibility.  After all, we had been taught that they were God’s servants operating in “God’s government”.

After the meeting I apologized to 3 of the leaders for making the post.  After I apologized to one of the leaders he spent 20 minutes trying to convince me that the website was not to be taken seriously.  He tried to make me feel guilty by referring to the information on the bulletin board as ‘gossip’ and he tried to make me doubt the accuracy of the accounts on the website.  I had not read “The Code of Silence” yet, but I knew that he was wrong in trying to turn me away from the website.  I just pretended I was taking him seriously and then went on my way.

After I got home I read the first part of “The Code of Silence”.  Upon reflecting on what I read I decided later that night that I really did not have to feel bad about posting those questions.

Note:  Put simply, the reason why the leaders despised the website was that it constituted a source of information that they could not control.  Their only hope was to discredit it or to keep us from reading it altogether.

Jack

Chuck Vanasse and i feared that things were not quite right with these leaders, as they began equivocating their repentance very soon.  Even the letter they read Sunday morning was missing a key phrase that we had agreed on the night before.  

Danny remained pretty strong throughout, but the others wavered.  It was Ray Dienzo who was the first to take a stand.  I include his official letter of resignation below, which he hand delivered to the members of the SLO Assembly.  Remember, this was AFTER the reconciliation that this took place.  It shows, clearly, that leaders just can't snap out of it overnight!  This was a public letter.  I may release a few things, post-watergate style, now that everything seems to have solidified.  For some time, I have held back certain things, in hope that people would "get it."  I see no reason to wait any longer, or cater to them in any way.

Ray and I live a block away from eachother, and we are close friends.  My daughter rides with them to church most Sundays.

Saturday, January 25th

Brothers,
 
I think we need to face the facts.
 
The Lord wants to disband this system the in which we have been functioning as leaders.
 
We have acted sinfully:
in manipulating people by guilt to perpetuate a corrupt ministry
in slandering people who have spoken out against this corrupt ministry
 
The Lord wants to start afresh; but not with this present system.
 
I am formally stepping out of this system of leadership.
 
I exhort you to admit these things as well, and to step out, as is fitting.
I admitted the truth to Brent, in front of Suzie, that our motive in speaking with Bryan is not totally pure, but that we really wanted to see the website shut down.  I realize that this is wrong, because the website has been the source of our deliverance, and what it communicated is true.  Whispering, and manipulation, behind the back of someone who has shown courage and integrity, who has not lied to us, and who has been quick to repent, is sinful, and I won't have any further part in it.
 
Still your friend and brother
 
Ray Dienzo
 
 
 
Call me on my cell xxx-xxxx if you need to talk to me about this since I will be out and about.
 

[M2]

Jack, I love your posts on this topic. It is like a BB Ebenezer fellowship.  Did you have Ebenezer fellowships or was Ottawa unique?  What does Ebenezer really mean anyway?

I forgot to post this on the 21st.
1/21/04

The letter of GG's excommunication was read at our Tuesday evening prayer meeting.  It was not a formal prayer meeting, but a time of discussion (so the sisters got to remove their head coverings).  It was that evening that I learned of the fact that the website had been around for a few months and that a couple of people had been reading it regularly to keep informed.  I do not know if it was that evening or one the following week's prayer meetings, but the LBs Armand Cossette and Dina Dinakaren offered to step down if we wanted them to.  None of us wanted them to do so. side-note-- this is a sharp contrast to STL and possibly other localities. --end-side-note  We supported the LBs, and till the day I left, I also did even when I disagreed on certain decisions (minor things actually).

I will now digress and share some thoughts on the subject.
Re. Ottawa LBs stepping down - the thought that went through my mind was, who would lead us then if these 2 stepped down?  They were the most qualified to lead the assembly.  They had the experience.  There were also the feelings of fear of being abandonned.  At that time I had not made all the connections about the assembly ie as to it being a false religion etc.  The assembly was the ' true way to meet'.  I could not even imagine the thought of going to another church.  Where would we go if things fell apart?  What would we do?  These were all real dilemnas to me.  Even through my discussions on the BB, I would still think that Ottawa could be an exception, though I would agree with most of what was said.  I would even give a daily report to ?? and ?? about the latest news from the website/BB.  That was an exception, as most people were not open to discussing the website information.  Though I discovered that more of them read it than let on, because that is what finally led to my being excluded.  It was my calling the assembly a cult on this BB.  I had not done this in private emails and/or conversations with them.

Anyway...
Lord bless,
Marcia