Contemporary Christian Culture

[Recovering Saint]

Two thoughts that coincide are the following.
When does a nation give up its freedoms?
When fear drives them to have someone protect them at any cost.
When does a believer give up their rights? The very same reason.

Homeland Security. Now that people from other countries are required to undergo more and more scrutiny and hotel lists are checked with MC and Visa records and of course every corner store has a camera and the ATMs as well. People are worried that their freedoms are being eroded under the guise of security. We lost the right to freedom when those who lead us stopped being an example. The loss of Judeo Christian values and the loss of respect for authority I believe go hand in hand and now the only way to protect society is to monitor their moves because the moral conscience of society does not restrain them anymore.

Abuse of power is possible but we brought it on ourselves by not working on family values and by not reinforcing our respect for basic authority be it the local police or the school teachers etc.. With regards to stopping terrorism we are now in reaction mode. If we have freedom of anonymity for everyone it helps the terrorist go undetected. If you profile people then you run the risk of discrimination against innocent parties. The only way to avoid this is to have fool proof ID that must be carried by everyone and cannot be forged. No ID no entrance. This unfortunately ushers in a good excuse for the Mark of the Beast but what can we say when God's love no longer controls people's hearts we have to have a law to protect everyone and some day to quote someone we all know well they will be saying "Thank God for the Devil" sad but true the wolf will be guardian to the sheep.

In the Assembly we gladly gave over our God given rights to someone who said to us this is the way follow me. I know the bible better than those Seminarians and Doctors of divinity and I have a new revelation from God. It is the Testimony to Jesus.

[Margaret]

Scott and Chris -

Yep, we were in survival mode in the Irons house (aka the House of Peace!).  Betty provided us with at least $1000 worth of Neo Life freeze dried food, told us to buy beans and rice etc. in bulk for storage, etc.  Even though Beth Alex and I were on the Gerson and dragging through each day, we too were out there putting dry ice in coffee cans of beans.  Needless to say, we returned all that outdated food when we left.  I am so sorry, you guys, that we perpetuated such paranoia and ruined numerous summers for a bunch of kids.

[Scott McCumber]

Scott and Chris -

Yep, we were in survival mode in the Irons house (aka the House of Peace!).  Betty provided us with at least $1000 worth of Neo Life freeze dried food, told us to buy beans and rice etc. in bulk for storage, etc.  Even though Beth Alex and I were on the Gerson and dragging through each day, we too were out there putting dry ice in coffee cans of beans.  Needless to say, we returned all that outdated food when we left.  I am so sorry, you guys, that we perpetuated such paranoia and ruined numerous summers for a bunch of kids.

Ha! You must have forgotten that I spent most of the time I was supposed to be stocking food in a dirt clod war with Danny! Now that was fun.

Until you came out and threatened us! What a mean mom to not let us peg each other with dirt!

It wasn't that bad (cept when I was sick).

Scott

[editor]

Two thoughts that coincide are the following.
When does a nation give up its freedoms?
When fear drives them to have someone protect them at any cost.
When does a believer give up their rights? The very same reason.

Homeland Security. Now that people from other countries are required to undergo more and more scrutiny and hotel lists are checked with MC and Visa records and of course every corner store has a camera and the ATMs as well. People are worried that their freedoms are being eroded under the guise of security. We lost the right to freedom when those who lead us stopped being an example. The loss of Judeo Christian values and the loss of respect for authority I believe go hand in hand and now the only way to protect society is to monitor their moves because the moral conscience of society does not restrain them anymore.

Abuse of power is possible but we brought it on ourselves by not working on family values and by not reinforcing our respect for basic authority be it the local police or the school teachers etc.. With regards to stopping terrorism we are now in reaction mode. If we have freedom of anonymity for everyone it helps the terrorist go undetected. If you profile people then you run the risk of discrimination against innocent parties. The only way to avoid this is to have fool proof ID that must be carried by everyone and cannot be forged. No ID no entrance. This unfortunately ushers in a good excuse for the Mark of the Beast but what can we say when God's love no longer controls people's hearts we have to have a law to protect everyone and some day to quote someone we all know well they will be saying "Thank God for the Devil" sad but true the wolf will be guardian to the sheep.

In the Assembly we gladly gave over our God given rights to someone who said to us this is the way follow me. I know the bible better than those Seminarians and Doctors of divinity and I have a new revelation from God. It is the Testimony to Jesus.

Hugh,

Yes, YES, YES!!! and YES!!!

absolutely.  I could not agree more.  These are exactly the sort of conclusions that I have come to regarding politics, conservatism, etc.

I can't ever see myself voting for a Democrat, and I vote for the Republicans less than half the time.  I will not vote for George Bush in the next election, and didn't vote for him in the last one.

What I want is a political system that will leave me alone, and provide a framework wherein we can exercise our God given rights to Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

--- As for protection, I will have to protect my own, and must choose to what extent I trust my Heavenly Father to do this for me, as opposed to providing locks on doors, earthquake-safe construction and weapons.  Some people are content riding a motorcycle to work, others want to be safer.  Some people don't lock their doors, others have alarms.  It should be my choice, not the governments!---

This, in by book, means murder is wrong, laws that restrict ownership, movement, education, discrimination, sexual preference(note I said preference, not assualt) and that in any way restrict my right to worhsip God in the way my conscience dictates are wrong.  

Furthermore, taxation of the successfull, in order to buy the votes of the lazy infringes on my pursuit of happiness!---please note that I am totally in favor of helping the poor.  However, I think God is rather more pleased with cheerful givers, and not forceful redistribution of wealth---

The fact that so many today don't know what freedom is, let alone what it costs, coupled with the slouching, base culture we have engineered, is cause for great concern.

Unfortunately, I see the "conservatives," as being just as complicit in this destruction as the liberals.  They are merely chipping away at opposite ends of the foundation.  

The key to all of this is to learn to be content in whatever state we find ourselves in.  Grace!  Oh Lord, I need it!  

Brent

[Margaret]

Scott -
 
Yep, totally forgot.  Good for you guys!!

And yeah, when you were sick, that was bad.  Under Betty's wise tutelage, you were to be considered malingering, treated accordingly, etc.  What idiots we were to let her completely override our own common sense, especially when it came to "discerning" people's motives, which she did all the time with us.  I am so sorry.  It is amazing that you still have faith in God, Scott, after all the garbage done in His name.  Probably the genuineness of your parents has something to do with it, bless their hearts.

[Scott McCumber]

Scott -
 
Yep, totally forgot.  Good for you guys!!

And yeah, when you were sick, that was bad.  Under Betty's wise tutelage, you were to be considered malingering, treated accordingly, etc.  What idiots we were to let her completely override our own common sense, especially when it came to "discerning" people's motives, which she did all the time with us.  I am so sorry.  It is amazing that you still have faith in God, Scott, after all the garbage done in His name.  Probably the genuineness of your parents has something to do with it, bless their hearts.

Faith in Jesus Christ has never been an issue.

Faith in what I was taught about how He relates to His people, how He speaks, what He expects, etc. is what has been in question.

That's kind of weak, but I'm trying to sneak this post in at work. Guess I'm not always a faithful steward!

S

[jackhutchinson]

I read Cal Thomas' book Blinded by Might when it first came out and I heartily recommend it.  I have always wrangled over the issue of the relationship between one's religious views and political actions (or lack thereof).

In the assembly we attempted to regulate holiness with GG's directives.  Is it any better to attempt that using the government?  On the other hand, isn't it inconsistent to believe one way and vote another way?  I don't know yet.

I do know that what this country needs is a widespread revival, and only God can do that!

Jack

[chrisnortonfan1]

Margaret:

I actually didn't have all bad experiences during my 1987 stay.  I have good memories of playing basketball, burning the morning oatmeal, and going to the beach.  It gave me my real sense of independence even if I had to deal with "encouraging" roommates and daily homesickness.  Plus, after seeing firsthand the whole system in Fullerton, it cinched the deal for me that I could not wait until I could get out of the assembly.  So God definitely used that experience to show me the path to eventual freedom a few years later.  The crazy thing is that you when you guys left a couple of years later, my assembly spin doctored your exit in their normal fashion.  I was skeptical to say the least.

Noel

[Scott McCumber]

Margaret:

I actually didn't have all bad experiences during my 1987 stay.  I have good memories of playing basketball, burning the morning oatmeal, and going to the beach.  It gave me my real sense of independence even if I had to deal with "encouraging" roommates and daily homesickness.  Plus, after seeing firsthand the whole system in Fullerton, it cinched the deal for me that I could not wait until I could get out of the assembly.  So God definitely used that experience to show me the path to eventual freedom a few years later.  The crazy thing is that you when you guys left a couple of years later, my assembly spin doctored your exit in their normal fashion.  I was skeptical to say the least.

Noel

Go the beach and play basketball! What the heck? I pulled weeds and swept the driveway. But I'm guessing you had a whole lot better attitude than I did.

I did have a lot of fun with Danny. And I enjoyed sneaking out for a walk every night, too. Oops. Let that one slip. The trick was to time it just right and make sure Beth wasn't peeking out her window to check and see if my light was on!

By the way, Margaret, the Assembly spin on you guys after you left filtered all the way through the Tuscola assembly to an AK who had left his parents behind and made its way to my ear.

I told him it was a lot of garbage. Even after several years free of the Assembly it was easier for him to blindly accept their spin than to stop and consider it objectively. He still vaguely sticks to George=Bad, Assembly=Good because his parents are still involved in a George free, Assembly type fellowship.

You might even recognize him since he spent a summer in your home. Think he'd know better.

Scott

[Margaret]

Scott, the assemby spin on why and how we left was so powerful that most people still do not want to speak to us, even if they left years ago themselves.  Even people we were close to (or thought we were...).

[Joe Sperling]

Dear Tom,

I would like to make a donation to PETVIBE as quickly as possible. I give regularly to PETFAV(People for the eithical treatment of fruits and vegetables) but PETVIBE seems to be a cause perhaps more worthy than PETFAV. But it makes sense that those who mistreat fruits and vergetables would also be mistreating microbes. Those who see themselves as important usually abuse those smaller than themselves.

In a recent study done at the University of Colorado, it was found that apples literally scream in terror as they are pulled towards the mouth. The heart wrenching cry that exudes from them once they are bitten into is enough to make one swear off fruits for ever. In another study done on grapes it was found that a whole chorus of screams can be heard as they are so horribly devoured.

One of the most terrible things descovered was the multiple screams of an artichoke, as it's leaves were pulled off one by one and dipped in butter and then devoured by some uncaring soul, thinking more about his stomach than the life of a precious artichoke. So many carrots, so many beets, so many persimmons!! Mistreated and abused, and "used" by us for our own pleasure!! Can anything be more disgusting!! And if this be the case, think of the lowly microbe, injected into a human bloodstream, ready to be devoured by those ghastly anti-bodies that inhabit our human systems!!

I'm starting to hyperventilate as I think about it. I've got to go lie down now.


--Joe

[editor]

Scott, the assemby spin on why and how we left was so powerful that most people still do not want to speak to us, even if they left years ago themselves.  Even people we were close to (or thought we were...).

The Irons' were even worse in the "way" they left than I was!

Personally, I view it as a badge of honor, sort of like bearing stripes for Christ.  However, there are some differences, namely that our bad judgement got us into the mess, not our faithfulness.  Nevertheless, Steve played a powerful role in Suzie and my deliverance, when we read the story,  "How it came about that the Irons Left the Assembly."

The spin stopped spinning about halfway through to story.  I was also somewhat shocked to realize that one of the main issues had to do with Lee,  and that the brothers who stood against Steve lost their firstborn to the world, whereas Lee is a faithful minister of the gospel.  

Very ironic, very sobering.

Brent

[M2]

Scott, the assemby spin on why and how we left was so powerful that most people still do not want to speak to us, even if they left years ago themselves.  Even people we were close to (or thought we were...).

I felt kind of 'betrayed' by your departure from the Geftakys assembly scene. Of course, we so trusted those who had the rule over us, that we believed the 'white??' lies we were fed. Actually I found out about your leaving quite by accident. Maybe we weren't told, because they wanted to slow down the exodus. I found out later that quite a number used the Irons' departure as an opportunity to leave the assembly. For some reason I sensed that something was wrong, and when I asked, the 'worker' told me that the Ludwigs had left in Chicago, but held back on informing me about your departure. We were told lies about Lee. We were told lies about Margaret ie she was using psychological methods to counsel as opposed to Biblical (that I heard from GG himself). Margaret, when I learned of the Irons' leaving that was one time I wept; the other was when my brother left the Lord. After a while I got used to the fact that people come and go.

I agree with Brent. It is an honor to be out and stand against Geftakysism. If the Lord Jesus rebuked the leaders of His time for their hypocrisy, I rebuke any existing assembly-sympathiser as well.

Lord bless,
Marcia

[editor]

Scott, the assemby spin on why and how we left was so powerful that most people still do not want to speak to us, even if they left years ago themselves.  Even people we were close to (or thought we were...).

The Irons' were even worse in the "way" they left than I was!

Personally, I view it as a badge of honor, sort of like bearing stripes for Christ.  However, there are some differences, namely that our bad judgement got us into the mess, not our faithfulness.  Nevertheless, Steve played a powerful role in Suzie and my deliverance, when we read the story,  "How it came about that the Irons Left the Assembly."

The spin stopped spinning about halfway through to story.  I was also somewhat shocked to realize that one of the main issues had to do with Lee,  and that the brothers who stood against Steve lost their firstborn to the world, whereas Lee is a faithful minister of the gospel.  

Very ironic, very sobering.

Brent

On edit, I am referring specifically to the men mentioned in the story.  I am not suggesting that everyone in the Assembly lost their firstborn to the world.  However, the majority of the Fullerton leadership did....I'm having trouble thinking of one that didn't.  I'm sure there are, I just can't think of who.  Also, these kids are in their twenties and thirties now, those from Steve and Margaret's story.

Brent

[vernecarty]

Scott, the assemby spin on why and how we left was so powerful that most people still do not want to speak to us, even if they left years ago themselves.  Even people we were close to (or thought we were...).

Just about  the greatest indictment of those in Fullerton charged with leadership is the way in whcih they knowingly participated in the conspiracy to defame, derogate, and slander the Irons at the time of their departure. The unspeakable viciousness, depravity, and wicked premeditation of this bunch is illustrated by the calculating choice of an allegation of witchcraft agaisnt Margaret. And some of you get indignant over my expressed contempt for this cabal?!
I want to know how many of them have apologised to Steve and Margaret.
These men all knew Steve Irons and had served with him for many years. Anyone mistaking their bahavour for plain sutpidity as opposed to subterfuge is foolish. It is, and has alway been my contention that these men got to a point where they knowingly engaged in wicked and despicable behaviour. Let them give their lying excuses to Jehovah.  Do any of you think God is not going to hold them to account? They are already judged.
I believe the Lord allowed this to happen to Steve and Margaret exactly for the purpose of opening thier own eyes to the horror of what they had been involved with for so many years. It was unquestionably a stroke of His mercy and indicative of His favor to them...of course, they too could have continued to compromise...they chose not to...

p.s it was the dedicated strategy of Geftakys and Co, to completely defile, defame, and ultimately destroy anyone around him with the potential to challenge him- unless of course you demonstrated that you were willing to absolutely prostitute every principle to his expressed will. Some people do not like to hear me say this but that is just too bad. Anyone serving with George Geftakys over any length of time was by definition compromised. Let them argue with their conscience, whatever is left of it!
 Look at what they did to a man like Jim Hayman...a man I used to admire...

Scott, the assemby spin on why and how we left was so powerful that most people still do not want to speak to us, even if they left years ago themselves.  Even people we were close to (or thought we were...).

The spin stopped spinning about halfway through to story.  I was also somewhat shocked to realize that one of the main issues had to do with Lee,  and that the brothers who stood against Steve lost their firstborn to the world, whereas Lee is a faithful minister of the gospel.  

Very ironic, very sobering.

Brent

Poignantly Poetic! Lee's potential terrified George and so he had to try to destroy him. The other brothers participated because misery loves company...
Verne