Contemporary Christian Culture

[M2]

Scott, the assemby spin on why and how we left was so powerful that most people still do not want to speak to us, even if they left years ago themselves.  Even people we were close to (or thought we were...).

The Lord sent you(the Irons') and MarkC and TomM and DaveS and Brent and Verne and others ahead to prepare for the day when us ex-Gaftakysites would need your help, even as Joseph from the OT was sent ahead to Egypt to prepare for the day when his family would need food in a time of famine.

I find that the only thing I have in common with those who remain "in" is that we are saved. Besides that any communication is on a 'social' level "Cold, isn't it?" "How was work today?" "Are you liking your new home/car/??" Or it ends up being on discussions about assembly matters which we disagree on, so we do not want to go there.  I am happy to make new friends now that I have gotten the message that I am to be excluded.

Lord bless,
Marcia

[Scott McCumber]

My cousin, and former AK, Robert Beasley formed a band called Fourth Normal Form (I’m sure that means a lot more to Stephen, Lucas and company than it does to me). The band includes his four sons and they play a mix of Christian and secular music.

Amazing family. Check it out.

http://www.4nfband.com/

Scott

[Margaret]

Verne, we have made contact with Mark and Tim, and neither of them have apologized.  Tim G. said to Mark that they do not owe Steve any kind of apology.  Earl Summerville apologized after he left a few years ago.  We have not had contact with any of the others.

Brent, Tim's daughter Elizabeth and her husband Matt are attending a Calvary Chapel.

[editor]

Verne, we have made contact with Mark and Tim, and neither of them have apologized.  Tim G. said to Mark that they do not owe Steve any kind of apology.  Earl Summerville apologized after he left a few years ago.  We have not had contact with any of the others.

Brent, Tim's daughter Elizabeth and her husband Matt are attending a Calvary Chapel.

Yes, I know.

Elizabeth told someone,  "Chuck Smith is everything my grandfather isn't."  

Heavy sarcasm to follow:

Steve and Margaret, why should Tim Geftakys or Mark Miller have to apologize to a witch, especially one that is counseling people in a strange way?  Shouldn't you be the ones to apologize to them?

Steve was trying to destroy the Body of Christ, the Testimony to Jesus, when you guys left.  Shoudn't he be the one to apologize for the horrible way he conducted himself, slandering George by saying he was abusive?  Don't you think the sin of witchcraft is bad enough?

Brent

[editor]

This is an attempt to get this bi-polar thread back on track, the subject being Contemporary Christian Culture.

I am going to recommend the following book with a warning:  do not read this book if you are in the middle of a spiritual crisis!  In other words, if you KNOW you are redeemed, and KNOW Jesus Christ, and are looking for answers to, "How did this happen,"  "What was I thinking?"---then read this book!

If you aren't sure what you believe, or are almost convinced that God is a sham, or that all religion, including Christianity is a joke, then DO NOT read this book!

The True Believer," by Eric Hoffer

For those that have read this book, you will know what I am talking about when I make the following statement:

A large part (not all!!!) of contemporary Christain Culture is a mass movement, not unlike many others in past 200 years.  The vocabulary is different, but the thinking (or lack thereof) and the action is the same.

In a mass movement, people sacrifice freedom, individuality and critical thinking, in order to be part of a holy cause that transcends the importance of any one person, or even a large number of people.  (sound familiar?)

In this type of environment,  where our minds are not "free to roam," art, music, education and the like are going to degenerate into their baser forms.  As the mass movement winds down, an underlying cynicism takes over.  The goods are not being delivered by the cause and its leaders, yet the members of the movement are still not free to regain their individuality and freedom.  The cause remains holy, but is temporarily sidetracked by the leaders.

In this type of culture, people are interested in diversion, and things that make them feel differently.  Any type of poetry or writings that demand action in a direction away from the mass movement's approved behavior will not be understood by the masses, or will be suppressed by the leadership.

I believe the above is one of the main reasons for the current state of what we are calling Contemporary Christian Culture.  Again, please don't misunderstand what I am saying, I am in no way saying all Christendom is worldly!

Read the book, be disturbed for a few days, and then chime in with what you think.  We could talk about this for months.  Freedom has a tremendous ability to clear the mind and energize us!

Brent

[summer007]

WoW....I was just going to post my thoughts on the CD's I bought friday nite at Borders ....and alot has taken place.. Brent the book recommendation is appreciated...Well I bought some Christian CD's two of which had one song that I liked I figured this was the price I had to pay and I did'nt mind because they Blessed me with their work... now on the Wow CD I'll admit out of 33 songs I only really like around 10 if even that ..Music is art and its a matter of taste..some only like Classical , etc...I have to agree with Marcia on her views as I have 2 teens...and some of the songs  do sound the same and are sugery sweet...I'll recommend Jeremy Camp...song:I STILL BELIEVE...(I still believe in your Faithfulness,etc..) I'm sure I probibly can't type out all the Lyrics...another..is MERCY ME...SONG: WORD OF GOD SPEAK...(word of God speak would you pour down like rain washing my eyes to see Your Majesty) These two songs are worth my money ... and on the Wow cd I have always loved Breathe...by Rebecca St James...(This is the air I breathe..Your holy presence living in me) it goes on and is Beautiful....Margaret when I read what happened to you I'm very grieved....yes as I'm sure the Lord is Very Grieved over this... consulation and ccomfort are Yours in the Lord...and Thank-You for the Reflections Site it has been a Blessing to me...re: found it 9/4/03....a verse that is close to my heart...The Lord is Near to the Broken Heart and saves such that be of a Contrite Spirt....Ps 34:18 and What shalll we say to these things? If God be for us,who can be against us? Rom 8:31....And Clarence do you know what it entails to travel across the Country booking venues,staying in Hotels, airfare ,coordinating a Free concert.....this is after Studio time rehearsing, mixing, photo shoots,etc..Yes  a simpel Free concert can be given but to do anything on a Large Scale with the Quality you speak of someone has to come up with some moolah...Now my sons friend is in the worship band and his friend gives him guitar lessons ..I've offered him formal lessons ..but he prefers to jam with his friends and learn that way.. the church also offered a Free Guitar Class...I think it was a 6 or 8 week class ...My daughter has stepped in to sing when needed....its interesting everything you brought up...I had a difficult time moving to comtemporary...also. other then Wendy and Mary years ago who folded I saw Mary Rice when my children were small doing a kids show... and Keith Green in '85 about a week before he died...i was blessed Dylan was saved about  the time I had rededicated my Life....I remember being called on the carpet for Harboring a Carly Simon Album...I had to toss it "Bonfire of the Vanitys" so to speak they said how could I have this immoral womans album in the house etc..you know the rest..Funny thing is I think they were Great Mozart Fans hummmm if I recall correctly  he had some issues ..See its all a matter of Taste ..Beauty is in the eye of he Beholder..Art is Art..Thats what makes us all unique is our different Tastes... After all were not Robots...how Dull would it be if we only liked the same things...Gods Creation all around US...is Art....And Scott I remember when I was Young never telling my Mom I was bored if I ever did as I learned she'd say You can always pull weeds...good one huh...and just a thought ..I prided myself in only getting I think  one consequence that I can remember it was for leaving a Spoon out it cost me 25 cents... I told my daughter this and she pointed to a spoon I had left on the Table the other day and we both laughed...(ok I may have had 2 consequences..but I dont remember ..he, he)...

[Scott McCumber]

And Scott I remember when I was Young never telling my Mom I was bored if I ever did as I learned she'd say You can always pull weeds...good one huh...and just a thought ..I prided myself in only getting I think  one consequence that I can remember it was for leaving a Spoon out it cost me 25 cents...

I prided myself on getting about one consequence every 30 minutes! No really.

Scott

[outdeep]

My cousin, and former AK, Robert Beasley formed a band called Fourth Normal Form (I’m sure that means a lot more to Stephen, Lucas and company than it does to me).

Just, FYI, "Fourth Normal Form" is a term used in relational database theory that is used when folks design relational databases (Microsoft Access is an example of a relational database).  It basically means, among other things, that you are not storing the same data in two different places in the database.  I have no idea what it means as it relates to music.

[Scott McCumber]

My cousin, and former AK, Robert Beasley formed a band called Fourth Normal Form (I’m sure that means a lot more to Stephen, Lucas and company than it does to me).

Just, FYI, "Fourth Normal Form" is a term used in relational database theory that is used when folks design relational databases (Microsoft Access is an example of a relational database).  It basically means, among other things, that you are not storing the same data in two different places in the database.  I have no idea what it means as it relates to music.

Hi, Dave,

I don't think it means anything as it relates to music. Robert is a professor of computer science (or something similar) at Franklin College and he thought it was cool. Maybe the four boys angle had something to do with it.

S

[Oscar]

This is an attempt to get this bi-polar thread back on track, the subject being Contemporary Christian Culture.

I am going to recommend the following book with a warning:  do not read this book if you are in the middle of a spiritual crisis!  In other words, if you KNOW you are redeemed, and KNOW Jesus Christ, and are looking for answers to, "How did this happen,"  "What was I thinking?"---then read this book!

If you aren't sure what you believe, or are almost convinced that God is a sham, or that all religion, including Christianity is a joke, then DO NOT read this book!

The True Believer," by Eric Hoffer

For those that have read this book, you will know what I am talking about when I make the following statement:

A large part (not all!!!) of contemporary Christain Culture is a mass movement, not unlike many others in past 200 years.  The vocabulary is different, but the thinking (or lack thereof) and the action is the same.

In a mass movement, people sacrifice freedom, individuality and critical thinking, in order to be part of a holy cause that transcends the importance of any one person, or even a large number of people.  (sound familiar?)

In this type of environment,  where our minds are not "free to roam," art, music, education and the like are going to degenerate into their baser forms.  As the mass movement winds down, an underlying cynicism takes over.  The goods are not being delivered by the cause and its leaders, yet the members of the movement are still not free to regain their individuality and freedom.  The cause remains holy, but is temporarily sidetracked by the leaders.

In this type of culture, people are interested in diversion, and things that make them feel differently.  Any type of poetry or writings that demand action in a direction away from the mass movement's approved behavior will not be understood by the masses, or will be suppressed by the leadership.

I believe the above is one of the main reasons for the current state of what we are calling Contemporary Christian Culture.  Again, please don't misunderstand what I am saying, I am in no way saying all Christendom is worldly!

Read the book, be disturbed for a few days, and then chime in with what you think.  We could talk about this for months.  Freedom has a tremendous ability to clear the mind and energize us!

Brent

Brent,

I read Hoffer's book in the 1960's, and re-read it a couple of years ago.  It does describe many common elements of the way that people in cults and radical political movements think.

I don't agree that it is a good guide to what is going on in contemporary Christian culture.  This is because contemporary Christian culture is so huge, and so diverse, that it beggars description.

During my 43 years as a Christian, I have spent time with Charismatics, Deeper Life folks, Plymouth Brethren, Fundamentalists, Evangelicals, and of course, the One True Church of Fullerton. I have done quite a bit of study of Roman Catholicisim and church history.

Some of what Hoffer says is descriptive of some Christians in some forms of Christianity.   But there is much, much more to say about why people do what they do than Hoffer has said.


Nowadays I am involved with Biola and Talbot Seminary, and volunteer for Dr. Hugh Ross' Reasons To Believe ministry.

 I find that associating with and learning from folks like this to be encouraging, stimulating and uplifting.  Wonderful things are going on in the world of Christian scholarship.

So, I might have a somewhat broader perspective of what goes on in Christendom.   However, since we are people, we function out of the same psycho-physical makeup everyone else does.  Hence, some of what we do at times matches what other people do, as  described by Hoffer.

I agree with you that this is not a book for people undergoing a crisis of faith.  The reason for this is that this type of experience usually has strong subjective elements.  So, this book could lead to a lot of feeling-based subjective questioning.

If one can think objectively, Christian ideas are powerful and enabling.  We have nothing to fear from this book.   It is very insightful about people though.

Thomas Maddux

[Oscar]

Summer007,

It would really help if you would use paragraphs when you post.  Many people, such as me, find it difficult to read 20-60 lines of running text on a computer screen.

God bless,

Thomas Maddux

[summer007]

Tom, I could'nt agree with you more .....I got carried away. My eyes are straining at the single spaces...Thanks...

[editor]

I read Hoffer's book in the 1960's, and re-read it a couple of years ago.  It does describe many common elements of the way that people in cults and radical political movements think.....

I don't agree that it is a good guide to what is going on in contemporary Christian culture.  This is because contemporary Christian culture is so huge, and so diverse, that it beggars description.....


 I find that associating with and learning from folks like this to be encouraging, stimulating and uplifting.  Wonderful things are going on in the world of Christian scholarship....



I agree with you that this is not a book for people undergoing a crisis of faith.  The reason for this is that this type of experience usually has strong subjective elements.  So, this book could lead to a lot of feeling-based subjective questioning....

If one can think objectively, Christian ideas are powerful and enabling.  We have nothing to fear from this book.   It is very insightful about people though....

Thomas Maddux

I tried to be as clear as possible in my post that I am not ascribing the "mass movement" label to all of modern Christianity.  Unless a person has read the book, it is pointless to go past recommending the book, as I did below.

Nevertheless, just to make it clear, I am in total agreement with you.  However, there is a significant portion of CCC, mainly to part that is politically active, known as the Religious Right, (lots of Mormons in the Religious Right, but that is another topic) that are behaving as a mass movement.  

I'll cite a few specifics:

They believe they are better than everyone else,  "Let's bring God back in schools.  That will solve the problems."  

They believe that their ideas will "save" our crumbling culture, and that other ideas are from the enemy. "We need a constitutional definition of marriage, and a constitutional ban on abortion."  OK, I have a biblical view of both of these issues.  My wife was on staff at a pro-life crisis pregnancy center.  I have strong anti-abortion credentials.  However, passing these laws will not stop the behavior, but merely make it less convenient, like marijuana and murder.

They are willing to compromise their own principles, and overlook huge hypocrisy, in order to further the holy cause.  (willing to break a few eggs to make an omelette)  For example, some of the icons of the religious right have huge skeletons in the closet, like gambling and adultery.  They are still in the vanguard of the movement.  Another example would be the way they use money to buy influence in politics.  

Anyways, read the book, think about it, and one can't help but see that a significant part of CCC is taking on Mass Movement characteristics.  Just look at the latest political polls, which show religion as being the main issue for a significant portion of the population.

Much more can, and hopefully will, be said.  

However, please be perfectly clear that I do not pretend that all of CCC is simply as mass movement.  I am involved with a bunch of people who are clearly not a part of that!  Nevertheless, it is a growing segment of our religious population.

Brent

[Oscar]

I read Hoffer's book in the 1960's, and re-read it a couple of years ago.  It does describe many common elements of the way that people in cults and radical political movements think.....

I don't agree that it is a good guide to what is going on in contemporary Christian culture.  This is because contemporary Christian culture is so huge, and so diverse, that it beggars description.....


 I find that associating with and learning from folks like this to be encouraging, stimulating and uplifting.  Wonderful things are going on in the world of Christian scholarship....



I agree with you that this is not a book for people undergoing a crisis of faith.  The reason for this is that this type of experience usually has strong subjective elements.  So, this book could lead to a lot of feeling-based subjective questioning....

If one can think objectively, Christian ideas are powerful and enabling.  We have nothing to fear from this book.   It is very insightful about people though....

Thomas Maddux

I tried to be as clear as possible in my post that I am not ascribing the "mass movement" label to all of modern Christianity.  Unless a person has read the book, it is pointless to go past recommending the book, as I did below.

Nevertheless, just to make it clear, I am in total agreement with you.  However, there is a significant portion of CCC, mainly to part that is politically active, known as the Religious Right, (lots of Mormons in the Religious Right, but that is another topic) that are behaving as a mass movement.  

I'll cite a few specifics:

They believe they are better than everyone else,  "Let's bring God back in schools.  That will solve the problems."  

They believe that their ideas will "save" our crumbling culture, and that other ideas are from the enemy. "We need a constitutional definition of marriage, and a constitutional ban on abortion."  OK, I have a biblical view of both of these issues.  My wife was on staff at a pro-life crisis pregnancy center.  I have strong anti-abortion credentials.  However, passing these laws will not stop the behavior, but merely make it less convenient, like marijuana and murder.

They are willing to compromise their own principles, and overlook huge hypocrisy, in order to further the holy cause.  (willing to break a few eggs to make an omelette)  For example, some of the icons of the religious right have huge skeletons in the closet, like gambling and adultery.  They are still in the vanguard of the movement.  Another example would be the way they use money to buy influence in politics.  

Anyways, read the book, think about it, and one can't help but see that a significant part of CCC is taking on Mass Movement characteristics.  Just look at the latest political polls, which show religion as being the main issue for a significant portion of the population.

Much more can, and hopefully will, be said.  

However, please be perfectly clear that I do not pretend that all of CCC is simply as mass movement.  I am involved with a bunch of people who are clearly not a part of that!  Nevertheless, it is a growing segment of our religious population.

Brent

Well said Brent.

The project of passing laws to force unsaved people to behave as if they were committed Christians is doomed to failure.  Never had a chance.

However, I think that in the opinion of most folks on the Left, anyone who believes in God and opposes abortion IS the religious right.

Thomas Maddux

[editor]

However, I think that in the opinion of most folks on the Left, anyone who believes in God and opposes abortion IS the religious right.

Thomas Maddux

Yep.  What scares me even more than these folks' anti-christian bias, is that the "religious right," is doing everything they can---albeit unwittingly---to validate the claims made by the liberal, secular humanists, Godess worshipers, et al.

Chrisianity is not about a mass of people, or a cultural "world view," but about individuals and true freedom.  

The story about the comedian warming up the crowd before the Democrat debate gave me the chills.  Can you imagine what could happen if these people were able to have their way?

The only thing worse is if an amalgamation of Christians, Mormons and Catholics ran the government, and dictated their ideas upon us.

Brent