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mithrandir
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« Reply #105 on: January 26, 2004, 03:24:04 am » |
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I'm on a roll today. Maybe I'll graduate from being "an up-and-coming poster" to being "full of posts." But seriously, I want to address some concerns brought up by Joseph Reisinger and Kimberly Tobin. First, I want to say that I am not necessarily condemning a particular style of Christian music or art (although I have definite preferences). What I am condemning is the extremely low level of quality and the excessive commercialization of contemporary Christian culture (or CCC). This commercialization severely corrupts and restricts the ability of CCC to communicate anything meaningful. I mentioned what I see as the need for Christian artists to truly learn their craft, and I gave examples of things that a Christian writer or musician should know. This was not for the purpose of forcing Christians to produce only the kind of art that was made two hundred years ago. But rather, I believe that formal training forces the artist to think, and prepares him or her to innovate intelligently. Those without this kind of training often make a mess instead of coming up with useful innovations. I hope this helps.  But I do have another question for all of us. We have talked about the corruption of CCC, and we have talked about the marginalization of Christians in society. We have also talked about the harm that's been done by the religious right. What can a Christian individual - an army of one - do about these things to make a difference on a local level? mithrandir |
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al Hartman
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« Reply #106 on: January 26, 2004, 01:30:55 pm » |
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...We have talked about the corruption of CCC, and we have talked about the marginalization of Christians in society. We have also talked about the harm that's been done by the religious right. What can a Christian individual - an army of one - do about these things to make a difference on a local level?
mithrandir
This should go without saying, but I'll say it: Pray without ceasing. I don't project that any other venture should suffer for our taking time and exerting effort for prayer. Rather, it is essential that we remember from whence cometh our help: from the Lord. For without Him we can do nothing, and our best intentions will come to nothing. Number one beyond the immediacy of prayer is the witness and testimony of our personal lives. Do we have coworkers, clients, neighbors, even relatives who do not know of our faith in Jesus Christ? We need not buttonhole each one and ram the Gospel down their throats, but we should be prepared to speak a good word in season or out of season. Without the preparation of prayer and meditation upon the Person of the Lord, it is unlikely that we will recognize, much less seize, the opportunity to speak a word for Christ in the middle of a conversation about sports, fashion, politics or the weather. An effective Gospel message is not the fruit of cleverness, but of true spirituality. Then we must seek a forum for which we are suited to speak to our community. I like to write letters to the editors of several local newspapers. I avoid talk radio programs, because most of them are controversial and are totally controlled by their so-called moderators, who often love to and are able to make callers look foolish. If I were seeking to rally Christians to an idea, I would consider seeking a forum on a Christian radio or TV station, but they are often a strange mix of programming. Good public forums are also afforded by City council meetings and meetings of school boards, zoning commissions, etc. We can also have an influence as consumers, by patronizing honorable merchants and voicing our objections to the ownership and/or management of objectionable businesses. For example, I might tell a store manager that I disapprove of a display of objectionable material (e.g. magazines bearing suggestive cover pictures), and the reason for my objections. Equally important and effective may be commending those who are doing good things. There must be many more suggestions... I look forward to reading them... al P.S.-- I understand your emphasis, Mithrandir, but I'm not really crazy about the "army of one" concept... My oldest daughter, a career soldier, disdains it as a refutation of the whole idea of teamwork... |
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moonflower2
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« Reply #107 on: January 28, 2004, 08:09:52 am » |
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I forgot to add this ..I've found a Jewel I'll share ....Get Ready...Its 'The Gospel Songs of Bob Dylan' --Gotta Serve Somebody...He does one with Mavis Stapels..Who raises the Roof...and if you want Heart-Stopping..Shirley Caesar does that in her rendition of You Gotta Serve Somebody. Then if you can handel it listen to Dottie Peoples do 'I Believe in You'...Theres more ...Sounds of Blackness,Chicago Mass Choir it goes on...Highly recommend it...Come, Let us reason Together/Jukebox. I think this one is up for a Grammy..I'll double check that ..Nite-All ..And have a Safe and Happy Martin Luther King Day!!!
Hi Summer, I'm a Dylan fan, too. I've got his "Slow Train Coming". I Believe In You is an awesome song. I think he wrote these in the time immediately after he became a believer, and they did boo him off the stage. I don't think he is writing anymore Christian songs, is he? Awesome, though; Dylan is a Jewish believer. |
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delila
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« Reply #108 on: January 28, 2004, 08:30:15 am » |
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When I was on my way to Ottawa to 'serve the Lord' as we put it then, in an airplane, Armand and Nancy sitting beside me, there was a magazine featuring Jim and Tammy Baker and their Christian theme park or whatever it was, and Tammy's lovely mascara job, anyone remember that? Anyhoo, I remember Armand pushing the airline magazine in my face, disgusted by the worldliness. Months later, when the dynasty fell (the Jim and Tammy dynasty) Armand posted a newspaper clipping on his fridge about it. Jim got time, jail time and Armand grunted something or other about how well deserved that was. Wonder if George is getting time. Hope so. Anyhoo, as Marcia has pointed out, in Ottawa, we weren't influenced by GG anyway. So there's just no comparison, is there?
delila
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delila
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« Reply #109 on: January 30, 2004, 12:47:40 am » |
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Remember Keith Green?
I heard his music when I first came into fellowship. I thought it was wonderful, uplifting, edifying. I asked Tim Geftakys about it. Big mistake. They'd had a 'situation' with the singer. He was blacklisted. I got rid of my tapes.
delila
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jackhutchinson
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« Reply #110 on: January 30, 2004, 01:31:29 am » |
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Delila,
What exactly was that 'situation' with Keith Green?
Jack
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Mark Kisla
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« Reply #112 on: January 30, 2004, 05:08:25 am » |
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I don't think there was an "situation" with Keith Green but the Stl LBs took issue with some saints who were planning on helping out Last Days Ministry when Keith came to town. Some went anyway and a brother ended up letting Keith and Melody use his car to check out Stl. His opinion of Keith & Melody is basicly the same as Vernes.
My opinion, G-men did'nt want anyone to leave the assembly for another ministry. So there was a "situation". If anyone knows differently, please bring it to light.
Mark K
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Rachel
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« Reply #113 on: January 30, 2004, 08:05:19 am » |
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When the second Teen Team came around they instituted a new rule. No music could be brought, listen to or played except Christian and classical, not even oldies. Some kids brought some Christian music with a distinctly alternative/grunge sound which upset most of the adults. There was a brief time after that summer, in which they were trying to teach/institute a "standard" for music. It had something to do with an idea that when the beat was on the second and fourth count it was ok; but when it was on the first and third it was inherently "dark" and sexual.
(OK I am musically challenged and probably messing up the exact counts, beats, whatever. The point was that every piece of music whether with Christian lyrics or not was evil based on its beat. Therefore some Christian music was evil and should be banned.)
I don't know how far this teaching ever went; we never had money to buy CDs anyways so it was a moot point. However, for a lot of people I think it was a really big deal. I think Clarence may remember this teaching a little better and possibly could correct/clarify what exactly made music inherently defiling. Jack Hanson was the one who spoke on it at the workers' seminar.
Keith Green was always "ok" where I was, and as far as I can remember we were allowed to listen to him. However, I may be remembering incorrectly. Maybe because I really never got into music until after I got out of the assembly, this was never an issue I heard much about. My brother listen to pretty much whatever he wanted and just didn't tell anyone about it.
I do remember one brother being pretty floored when he caught my brother playing AC/DC on his guitar.
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al Hartman
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« Reply #114 on: January 30, 2004, 09:58:13 am » |
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A momentary aside: Here is the homepage for Mel Gibson's upcoming film The Passion Of the Christ: www.thepassionofthechrist.com The general release date is Feb.25, 2004. I expect it to have a pronounced effect among the unsaved and among nominal Christians. I intend to see it if for no other reason than to be able to discuss it knowledgeably with people who are moved by its content. God bless, al |
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« Last Edit: January 30, 2004, 10:03:17 am by al Hartman »
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editor
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« Reply #115 on: January 30, 2004, 10:03:08 am » |
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A momentary aside: Here is the homepage for Mel Gibson's upcoming film The Passion Of the Christ: http://www.thepassionofthechrist.com/splash.htm The general release date is Feb.25, 2004. I expect it to have a pronounced effect among the unsaved and among nominal Christians. I intend to see it if for no other reason than to be able to discuss it knowledgeably with people who are moved by its content. God bless, al Our church is going to have a special post-passion outreach. Most of the pastors here on the Central Coast saw an advance showing of the movie, and the consensus is that it will change your life. It is extremely powerful, and totally accurate. My hope is that this movie will be a box-office blockbuster, and make tons and tons of money! That will send a powerful message indeed. I am going to see it ASAP. Just imagine, an accurate portrayal of the life of Christ is the number one box office hit! It will turn Hollywood upside down......let's hope. Brent |
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Oscar
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« Reply #116 on: January 30, 2004, 11:18:42 am » |
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When the second Teen Team came around they instituted a new rule. No music could be brought, listen to or played except Christian and classical, not even oldies. Some kids brought some Christian music with a distinctly alternative/grunge sound which upset most of the adults. There was a brief time after that summer, in which they were trying to teach/institute a "standard" for music. It had something to do with an idea that when the beat was on the second and fourth count it was ok; but when it was on the first and third it was inherently "dark" and sexual.
(OK I am musically challenged and probably messing up the exact counts, beats, whatever. The point was that every piece of music whether with Christian lyrics or not was evil based on its beat. Therefore some Christian music was evil and should be banned.)
I don't know how far this teaching ever went; we never had money to buy CDs anyways so it was a moot point. However, for a lot of people I think it was a really big deal. I think Clarence may remember this teaching a little better and possibly could correct/clarify what exactly made music inherently defiling. Jack Hanson was the one who spoke on it at the workers' seminar.
Keith Green was always "ok" where I was, and as far as I can remember we were allowed to listen to him. However, I may be remembering incorrectly. Maybe because I really never got into music until after I got out of the assembly, this was never an issue I heard much about. My brother listen to pretty much whatever he wanted and just didn't tell anyone about it.
I do remember one brother being pretty floored when he caught my brother playing AC/DC on his guitar.
Rachel, Jack Hanson speaking on improper music. Now that is funny/sad. I can remember Jack being raked over the coals by your grandfather on several occassions for having dared to use upbeat music with New Song. Once I remarked to a sister that had enjoyed some of the rock music I had heard. That tidbit went through the grapevine like light through space, (186,000 miles per second). The next day Steve Irons solemnly informed me that "Brother George would like to talk to you". So the next day I stopped by the palace on Calle Serena on my way home from work. When I entered the great man's presence I was greated with , "What's this I hear that you don't think there's anything wrong with rock music". I told him I never said that. He then went on with the "missionaries from Africa say that the natives use the same beat as rock music does to worship the demons". I told him, that yes, that was true...but it was also true that Bach used those same beats to write his music. There are only a half-dozen or so rhythms that pretty much all music uses, so I guess we are all worshipping demons. Why didn't I rise in that organization? God bless, Thomas Maddux |
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outdeep
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« Reply #117 on: January 30, 2004, 07:10:18 pm » |
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I was first introduced to Keith Green in Steve Irons house. Keith's "no compromise" message seemed to go well with the Assembly and, as the Iron's kids were into adolescents, they could relate with the music. We enjoyed listening to him in Steves house and I still occasionally listen to some KG CDs to this day.
I have never heard anything negative about Keith's ministry from Assembly people personally. However, I do know that George has a tendency to, on the one hand, praise ministries that have similar points in order to give his ministry credibility (e.g., Francis Schaeffer, Bakt Singh, Dr. Charles Solomon, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, etc). On the other hand, he would generally find something crtitical of these same ministries to make sure people would understand that they are inferior to his.
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delila
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« Reply #118 on: January 30, 2004, 08:43:56 pm » |
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Do tell then, what ever happened to Chuck Solomon? Does he have any idea how the wheel and line diagrams were used to put the final nails in many of our coffins in the assembly? Does he agree with the main points of GG's ministry? I'd really like to know
delila
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outdeep
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« Reply #119 on: January 30, 2004, 09:40:54 pm » |
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At the time, (lates 1980's) George said that Dr. Solomon was one of the few individuals who saw the cross in a way that George had figured out long ago. He even allowed Dr. Solomon to speak at a meeting (I believe it was Wednesday night).
George shortly afterwards told the story of how after he took Dr. Solomon into his study. Dr. Solomon listened with rapt attention as George began to open up to him how the cross not only applies to the individual, but to the church as well.
Dr. Solomon has not been seen since, to my knowledge. Again, the Geftakian principle of using Dr. Solomon's ministry to give his own credibility, but then pointing out how he (George) came up with the idea sooner and with greater depth of understanding.
I always wondered if what George interpreted as Dr. Solomon's rapt attention to deeper teaching was in fact Dr. Solomon sitting silently and patiently while thinking, "as soon as I can get loose of this overbearing nut, I'm outta here."
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