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Author Topic: OOPS I did it again  (Read 13498 times)
Oscar
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« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2004, 02:25:28 am »

                  A FEW THOUGHTS ON THE CIVIL WAR

1. Slavery was definitely the root cause of the Civil War.  It came up at the Constitutional Convention but the North had to give in on the issue or the South would have bolted.

2. Even before that the Northwest Ordinance of 1787 had prohibited slavery in the new states.  

3. When the Northern states agreed to the 3/5 compromise to assure Southern ratification of the Constitution they pretty much set the stage for problems down the road.  After that the South had a disproportionate influence on national policy for decades.

 No new free states could come into the union without a corresponding slave state coming in at the same time.  In this way they kept the Senate evenly divided between slave and free states, and they could therefore block any anti-slavery laws from passing.

4. In the 1840's it seemed that some amicable solution could be found, such as England had done by freeing the slaves and compensating the former owners.

5. But during the 1850's the issue was taken up as a religious doctrine.  Southern preachers gave sermons and wrote books and articles claiming that slavery was the black man's natural state and the white man's burden.

This really heightened emotions on both sides, and people began to vilify their opponents as agents of Satan.  In the 1850's, this was taken very seriously.  People really believed the other side was Satanically inspired.

Remember this?
"He is stamping out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored".

It could be argued that the Civil War was a religious war at its root...but I suspect that economic policy was a greater factor.

Remember that the main cause of the Mexican war was Southern desire for more slave states to be carved out of Mexican lands.

6. In 1860 the Democrats split into pro-slavery and anti-slavery factions, allowing the election of Abraham Lincoln with 42% of the vote....1% less than Clinton.

7. Lincoln was the first anti-slavery president, so with the North's growing population making control of the House solidly anti-slavery, the South turned to State's Rights theory to justify secession.

8. The North went to war to prevent secession by the South.  The war was not fought to free the slaves...but slavery was the issue that caused it.

9. After 556,000 Americans had died...the Union was preserved.

10.  The South was already the poorest part of the Union, even before the war.  They were way behind in every measure of wealth, except for cotton and tobacco production.

11. If anyone disagrees with me I will give them a bad grade.  If they persist in disagreement, I will call their mother.  They will be SOOO BUSTED!


God bless,

Thomas Maddux
« Last Edit: January 18, 2004, 02:27:00 am by Tom Maddux » Logged
jesusfreak
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« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2004, 03:24:29 am »

                 A FEW THOUGHTS ON THE CIVIL WAR

1. Slavery was definitely the root cause of the Civil War.  It came up at the Constitutional Convention but the North had to give in on the issue or the South would have bolted.

You contradict yourself with this statement, IMO.  Competing nationalisms, political turmoil, the definition of freedom, the preservation of the Union, the fate of slavery and the structure of our society and economy could all be listed as significant contributing factors. It is rather hindersome to name a "root cause" after something which can be broken down even further.


Quote
2. Even before that the Northwest Ordinance of 1787 had prohibited slavery in the new states.  
Hardly revolutionary as it contained a rather harsh fugitive slave clause.

Quote
Remember that the main cause of the Mexican war was Southern desire for more slave states to be carved out of Mexican lands.
Are you referring to the Mexican-American war led by President James Polk?  Its causation can most definitely be attributed to his extreme expansionist views, with little to do with slavery.  Now, the North and the South fought over the issue of slavery in regard to this new land, but the appropiation of it was rather politically neutral.

Quote
7. Lincoln was the first anti-slavery president, so with the North's growing population making control of the House solidly anti-slavery, the South turned to State's Rights theory to justify secession.
Quoted from The Price of Liberty:

As early as the Revolutionary period, Thomas Jefferson proposed relocating African Americans beyond the boundaries of the new nation. Similarly, as late as the Civil War, Abraham Lincoln still envisioned a great black exodus that would purge the country of African Americans once and for all. Colonization, as this idea became known, rested upon the contention that blacks and whites (due to innate racial differences, polarized societal statuses, and pervasive racism) could not live together in social harmony and political equality within the same country. To many of its advocates, colonization was an ideological middle ground between the immediate, nationwide abolition of slavery, which seemed an ever remote possibility, and perpetual black bondage, a proposition that even some southern slaveholders found discomforting.

True, free the slaves.....but he didn't want to live near any of them

Quote
10.  The South was already the poorest part of the Union, even before the war.  They were way behind in every measure of wealth, except for cotton and tobacco production.
This is because industry was based in the North, and a very new North at that.  Not exactly comparative to today's situation.

just a few quick......"addressions"?
--
lucas
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al Hartman
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« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2004, 04:30:20 am »



                 A FEW THOUGHTS ON THE CIVIL WAR

1. Slavery was definitely the root cause of the Civil War.  It came up at the Constitutional Convention but the North had to give in on the issue or the South would have bolted.

You contradict yourself with this statement, IMO.  Competing nationalisms, political turmoil, the definition of freedom, the preservation of the Union, the fate of slavery and the structure of our society and economy could all be listed as significant contributing factors. It is rather hindersome to name a "root cause" after something which can be broken down even further.


Quote
2. Even before that the Northwest Ordinance of 1787 had prohibited slavery in the new states.  
Hardly revolutionary as it contained a rather harsh fugitive slave clause.

Quote
Remember that the main cause of the Mexican war was Southern desire for more slave states to be carved out of Mexican lands.
Are you referring to the Mexican-American war led by President James Polk?  Its causation can most definitely be attributed to his extreme expansionist views, with little to do with slavery.  Now, the North and the South fought over the issue of slavery in regard to this new land, but the appropiation of it was rather politically neutral.

Quote
7. Lincoln was the first anti-slavery president, so with the North's growing population making control of the House solidly anti-slavery, the South turned to State's Rights theory to justify secession.
Quoted from The Price of Liberty:

As early as the Revolutionary period, Thomas Jefferson proposed relocating African Americans beyond the boundaries of the new nation. Similarly, as late as the Civil War, Abraham Lincoln still envisioned a great black exodus that would purge the country of African Americans once and for all. Colonization, as this idea became known, rested upon the contention that blacks and whites (due to innate racial differences, polarized societal statuses, and pervasive racism) could not live together in social harmony and political equality within the same country. To many of its advocates, colonization was an ideological middle ground between the immediate, nationwide abolition of slavery, which seemed an ever remote possibility, and perpetual black bondage, a proposition that even some southern slaveholders found discomforting.

True, free the slaves.....but he didn't want to live near any of them

Quote
10.  The South was already the poorest part of the Union, even before the war.  They were way behind in every measure of wealth, except for cotton and tobacco production.
This is because industry was based in the North, and a very new North at that.  Not exactly comparative to today's situation.

just a few quick......"addressions"?
--
lucas

     Just a couple of quick questions, Mr. Maddux:
Will all of this be on the test?
And how long will Lucas' detention be?

 ;Dal

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Kimberley Tobin
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« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2004, 04:48:20 am »

I dunno...........I'm just not that much into history.......whine.........I know I should be......looking at your past to not make the same mistakes, blah, blah, blah, blah.....

I just want to live in the present, thank you very much (said very quickly) Grin
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editor
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« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2004, 06:02:04 am »

Not much interesting discussion happening there?  Honestly, I vistit RFTW more than AB or SWTE

--
lucas

RFTW was designed to be a place where only things worth posting were posted.  Hence, the fewer numbers of posts.  It is the "serious," BB.

It is my favorite, but I don't drag all this sort of stuff over there.  I'm rarely even sarcastic over there...well maybe a bit.  

If you have a sincere question, that's the place to ask it.

Brent
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M2
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« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2004, 08:54:50 am »

...
Having been gone from the assembly atmosphere for so long, I have either forgotten or left before it was born:  What is this "Selfer's Prayer" everybody is always bringing up?

Handbook to Happiness by Charles Solomon introduced us to the 'selfer's prayer'. I am not recommending this book. GG and BG used it extensively to teach us methods of 'overcoming'. RFTW has a thread that discusses this topic  General Category / Assembly / "S" in the center

Marcia
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Oscar
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« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2004, 11:56:49 am »

                 A FEW THOUGHTS ON THE CIVIL WAR

1. Slavery was definitely the root cause of the Civil War.  It came up at the Constitutional Convention but the North had to give in on the issue or the South would have bolted.

You contradict yourself with this statement, IMO.  Competing nationalisms, political turmoil, the definition of freedom, the preservation of the Union, the fate of slavery and the structure of our society and economy could all be listed as significant contributing factors. It is rather hindersome to name a "root cause" after something which can be broken down even further.

1. "rather hindersome" ?
2. It was the slavery based economy that led to the list of causes you have given.  Agricultural and trade issues were important also, but it was the cotton/tobacco based economy that made them important.


Quote
2. Even before that the Northwest Ordinance of 1787 had prohibited slavery in the new states.  
Hardly revolutionary as it contained a rather harsh fugitive slave clause.
.
Quote

Enlighten me.  What did the clause say?

Quote
Remember that the main cause of the Mexican war was Southern desire for more slave states to be carved out of Mexican lands.
Are you referring to the Mexican-American war led by President James Polk?  Its causation can most definitely be attributed to his extreme expansionist views, with little to do with slavery.  Now, the North and the South fought over the issue of slavery in regard to this new land, but the appropiation of it was rather politically neutral.
.
Quote

Lucas, thousands of Southerners moved to Texas in order to receive Mexican land grants.  The reason they wanted land was to grow cotton, for which purpose they brought their slaves. By 1830 the slave population of Texas was 10%. When Mexico abolished slavery, they refused to obey the law, which led to Mexican attempts to enforce it.  Resultant fighting led to open rebellion and their declaration of independence.  

In the 1840's Andrew Jackson worked to get congress to annex Texas, and in 1844 President Tyler submitted a statehood treaty to the Senate...but it was voted down by anti-slavery northern states.

you are correct that expansionist pressure led to the annexation of Texas in 1845, but the leaders of the expansionists were Southerners, and wanted to expand slavery as well.

Quote
7. Lincoln was the first anti-slavery president, so with the North's growing population making control of the House solidly anti-slavery, the South turned to State's Rights theory to justify secession.
Quoted from The Price of Liberty:

As early as the Revolutionary period, Thomas Jefferson proposed relocating African Americans beyond the boundaries of the new nation. Similarly, as late as the Civil War, Abraham Lincoln still envisioned a great black exodus that would purge the country of African Americans once and for all. Colonization, as this idea became known, rested upon the contention that blacks and whites (due to innate racial differences, polarized societal statuses, and pervasive racism) could not live together in social harmony and political equality within the same country. To many of its advocates, colonization was an ideological middle ground between the immediate, nationwide abolition of slavery, which seemed an ever remote possibility, and perpetual black bondage, a proposition that even some southern slaveholders found discomforting.

True, free the slaves.....but he didn't want to live near any of them
Quote

One can hardly call Jefferson, a slaveowner, anti-slavery.  True, when discussing political philosophy he opposed it in theory, and even advocated abolishing it at times.  But in his practical life he was a member of the Virginia gentry who's wealth and power were supported by the sweat of slaves.  He also is known to have fathered children with one of his slaves.  He was no abolitionist.

Lincoln was outspokenly anti-slavery.  That does not mean he was an egalitarian.  He pretty much reflected the racial attitudes of his times.  

Quote
10.  The South was already the poorest part of the Union, even before the war.  They were way behind in every measure of wealth, except for cotton and tobacco production.
This is because industry was based in the North, and a very new North at that.  Not exactly comparative to today's situation.
Quote

The reason industry was based in the North was that Southerners had discovered a way to make money without working for it.  Slavery.

Thomas Maddux
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al Hartman
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« Reply #22 on: January 19, 2004, 03:31:11 am »


Lucas,

     Debatin' a native-born Texan with a degree in History and a life-long love of the subject...

     WHOOOO-EEEEE!!!  You got SAND, Son!!!!!!![/font]

     Y'all keep right on debatin'-- yer gettin' us all an eddicashun...

 Grin Grin ;Dal

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jesusfreak
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« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2004, 02:21:10 am »

                 A FEW THOUGHTS ON THE CIVIL WAR

1. Slavery was definitely the root cause of the Civil War.  It came up at the Constitutional Convention but the North had to give in on the issue or the South would have bolted.

You contradict yourself with this statement, IMO.  Competing nationalisms, political turmoil, the definition of freedom, the preservation of the Union, the fate of slavery and the structure of our society and economy could all be listed as significant contributing factors. It is rather hindersome to name a "root cause" after something which can be broken down even further.

1. "rather hindersome" ?

Take my comment to mean that I feel discussing the Civil War with an emphasis on slavery is ultimately a simplistic and flawed approach.  Such emphases hinder, as they force connections not necessarily relevant.

Quote
2. It was the slavery based economy that led to the list of causes you have given.  Agricultural and trade issues were important also, but it was the cotton/tobacco based economy that made them important.

So, you are going to tell me (for example), that when South Carolina passed the Ordinance of Nullification in November 1832 and threatened to withdraw from the Union, it was because of slavery?

Quote
Quote
2. Even before that the Northwest Ordinance of 1787 had prohibited slavery in the new states.  
Hardly revolutionary as it contained a rather harsh fugitive slave clause.
.
Quote

Enlighten me.  What did the clause say?

---
There shall be neither slavery nor involuntary servitude in the said territory otherwise than in the punishment of crimes whereof the party shall have been duly convicted: Provided, always, that any person escaping into the same, from whom labor or service is lawfully claimed in any one of the original States, such fugitive may be lawfully reclaimed and conveyed to the person claiming his or her labor or service as aforesaid.

Article 6,
Northwest Ordinance of 1787
---

Quote
Quote
Remember that the main cause of the Mexican war was Southern desire for more slave states to be carved out of Mexican lands.
Are you referring to the Mexican-American war led by President James Polk?  Its causation can most definitely be attributed to his extreme expansionist views, with little to do with slavery.  Now, the North and the South fought over the issue of slavery in regard to this new land, but the appropiation of it was rather politically neutral.
.
Quote

Lucas, thousands of Southerners moved to Texas in order to receive Mexican land grants.  The reason they wanted land was to grow cotton, for which purpose they brought their slaves. By 1830 the slave population of Texas was 10%. When Mexico abolished slavery, they refused to obey the law, which led to Mexican attempts to enforce it.  Resultant fighting led to open rebellion and their declaration of independence.

you are correct that expansionist pressure led to the annexation of Texas in 1845, but the leaders of the expansionists were Southerners, and wanted to expand slavery as well.

This is quite true, easily evidenced by Southern democrats completely boxing out Martin Van Buren and Whig Henry Clay from the presidential race after they announced they were against immediate annexation of Texas......thus allowing Polk to come to the forefront

I would still point out that it was only after General Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna established his dictatorship in Mexico did the Texans revolt.....ie, slavery did not cause the war but it was likely the cause for Texans to be there in the first place (two different issues in my eyes).

Quote
Lincoln was outspokenly anti-slavery.  That does not mean he was an egalitarian.  He pretty much reflected the racial attitudes of his times.

Heh, my comment actually had very little merit in terms of its response content - i just disapprove of how much Lincoln is praised in this country and enjoy voicing this whenever possible Wink  

Quote
The reason industry was based in the North was that Southerners had discovered a way to make money without working for it.  Slavery.
Come on now, what kind of response is that?   Huh

It seems to me that you are using utilizing history to prove a position, but not utilizing it to create the position.....

Anyway, I really hope you don't mind my challenges to your points.  My intention is not at all to be impertinent; I just love to debate  Roll Eyes
--
lucas
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