AssemblyBoard
November 27, 2024, 07:55:44 pm *
The board has been closed to new content. It is available as a searchable archive only. This information will remain available indefinitely.

I can be reached at brian@tucker.name

For a repository of informational articles and current information on The Assembly, see http://www.geftakysassembly.com
 
   Home   Search  
Pages: 1 2 [3]
  Print  
Author Topic: What do the Scriptures teach about the extent of the atonement?  (Read 27018 times)
H
Guest


Email
« Reply #30 on: March 24, 2004, 04:05:56 pm »

4. What did the Apostle Paul teach about the extent of the atonement in his epistles ?  (Part 2)

Paul also clearly taught that the Lord Jesus Christ died "for us" (believers, the
elect) in 1 Corinthians. For example, in 1 Corinthians 5:7b he said "For even Christ
our passover is sacrificed for US" In 1 Corinthians 15:3 he said "For I delivered
unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for OUR sins
according to the scriptures;" This passage is especially significant. Here Paul was
defining the Gospel. If the Gospel is really about Christ dying for the sins of the
entire human race, as so many believe, why didn't Paul say so in this passage? Could
it be that he didn't say so because it isn't true? I haven't been able to find any
verses in 1 Corinthians where Paul said that the Lord Jesus Christ died for the
entire human race.

In 2 Corinthians, we finally encounter verses which some people try to use to teach
that Christ died for the entire human race. In chapter 5, Paul said "For the love of
Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were
all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live
unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again." (5:14-15).
Notice, however, that Paul did not say that Christ died for "all men" but simply for
"all". Who was Paul referring to? The interpretation that "all" refers to the entire
human race does not seem to me to fit the immediate context of the passage nor the
larger context of the rest of the Bible. The interpretation that "all" refers to all
true believers, all the elect, seems to me to fit the immediate context of the
passage as well as the larger context of the rest of the Bible. (By the way, when I
have to choose between 2 alternative interpretations of a passage, one of which
agrees with what the rest of the Bible teaches and one of which doesn't, I tend to
choose the one that agrees with the rest of the Bible.) John Gill's excellent
discussion of this passage in his book "The Cause of God and Truth" is quite
convincing, in my opinion. I'm tempted to quote him at length, but to save space,
I'll just give a link
(http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Cause_of_God_and_Truth/Part%201/section_39.htm).
In a similar manner, the interpretation that "world" in verse 19 of the same chapter
("To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing
their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.")
refers to the entire human race does not seem to me to fit as well as the
interpretation that it refers to all the elect, both Jews and Gentiles. Otherwise,
if "world" referred to the entire human race, then this verse would be teaching that
the entire human race has been reconciled to God and will be saved, which would
contradict other passages of Scripture. Again, John Gill's discussion of this
passage is excellent
(http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Cause_of_God_and_Truth/Part%201/section_40.htm).
In the immediate context of this passage, Paul taught that God has "reconciled US to
himself by Jesus Christ" (5:18) and "made him to be sin for US, who knew no sin;
that WE might be made the righteousness of God in him." (5:21), clearly referring to
believers. Thus Paul clearly taught in 2 Corinthians that Christ died for believers
(the elect).

Logged
H
Guest


Email
« Reply #31 on: March 24, 2004, 04:08:15 pm »

4. What did the Apostle Paul teach about the extent of the atonement in his epistles ?  (Part 3)

He taught the same thing (that Christ died for believers (the elect)) in Galatians.
In 1:3-4 he said "Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our
Lord Jesus Christ, Who gave himself for OUR sins, that he might deliver US from this
present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:" In 2:20 he said
"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me:
and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God,
who loved ME, and gave himself for ME." In 3:13  he said "Christ hath redeemed US
from the curse of the law, being made a curse for US: for it is written, Cursed is
every one that hangeth on a tree:" And in 4:4-5 he said "But when the fulness of
the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
To redeem them that were under the law, that WE might receive the adoption of
sons." I haven't been able to find any verses in Galatians where Paul said that the
Lord Jesus Christ gave Himself for the entire human race or redeemed the entire
human race.

In Ephesians, Paul clearly taught that the Lord Jesus Christ loved the elect
(believers) and gave himself for them. In 5:2 he said "And walk in love, as Christ
also hath loved US, and hath given himself for US an offering and a sacrifice to God
for a sweetsmelling savour" and in 5:25 he said "Husbands, love your wives, even as
Christ also loved THE CHURCH, and gave himself for IT". I haven't been able to find
any verses in Ephesians (or any of his other epistles) where Paul said that Christ
loved the entire human race and gave himself for the entire human race. He did,
however clearly teach election and predestination in this epistle ("Blessed be the
God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed US with all spiritual
blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath CHOSEN US in him before
the foundation of the world, that WE should be holy and without blame before him in
love: Having PREDESTINATED US unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to
himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of
his grace, wherein he hath made US accepted in the beloved. In whom WE have
redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of
his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward US in all wisdom and prudence; Having
made known unto US the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he
hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might
gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are
on earth; even in him: In whom also WE have obtained an inheritance, being
PREDESTINATED according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the
counsel of his own will: That WE should be to the praise of his glory, who first
trusted in Christ." - 1:3-12).
« Last Edit: March 24, 2004, 04:21:59 pm by H » Logged
H
Guest


Email
« Reply #32 on: March 24, 2004, 04:10:15 pm »

4. What did the Apostle Paul teach about the extent of the atonement in his epistles ?  (Part 4)

I have not been able to find anything on the extent of the atonement in Philippians,
but in Colossians (1:12-14), Paul taught that believers have been redeemed by the
blood of Christ ("Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made US meet to be
partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered US from the
power of darkness, and hath translated US into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom
WE have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins"). In the same
chapter (1:20-22), he also taught that believers have have been reconciled to God by
the death of Christ ("And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him
to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in
earth, or things in heaven. And YOU, that were sometime alienated and enemies in
your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh
through death, to present YOU holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight").
(By the way, whatever Paul meant by "to reconcile all things unto himself" (and I
have seen a number of different interpretations of that phrase), he didn't say that
Christ died for the entire human race in this passage.) In Colossians 2:13-14, Paul
also mentions benefits which believers derive from the death of Christ ("And YOU,
being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened
together with him, having forgiven YOU all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting
of ordinances that was against US, which was contrary to US, and took it out of the
way, nailing it to his cross"). I haven't been able to find any verses in Colossians
where Paul said that the Lord Jesus Christ died for the entire human race or
redeemed the entire human race.
 
In 1 Thessalonians (5:9-10), Paul clearly taught that the Lord Jesus Christ died for
believers (the elect), whom God has appointed to obtain salvation ("For God hath not
appointed US to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died
for US, that, whether WE wake or sleep, WE should live together with him."). I
haven't been able to find any verses in 1 Thessalonians where Paul said that the
Lord Jesus Christ died for the entire human race. (Can anybody besides me see a
pattern here?)

I haven't been able to find any verses on the extent of the atonement in 2
Thessalonians, but there are some very interesting verses in chapter 2 that I would
like to comment on briefly. In 2:11-12, Paul said "And for this cause God shall send
them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned
who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." If God really
loves the entire human race and sent His Son to die for the sins of the entire human
race, why will He send some of them "strong delusion, that they should believe a
lie: That they all might be damned"? Sounds to me like He doesn't love these people
(at least not in the same way and to the same extent as He loves the elect) and
didn't send His Son to die for them. What a contrast is found in verse 13! There
Paul said "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for YOU, brethren beloved of
the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen YOU to salvation through
sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth". Believers (the elect) are
"beloved of the Lord" and "from the beginning chosen ... to salvation".
Logged
H
Guest


Email
« Reply #33 on: March 24, 2004, 04:12:46 pm »

4. What did the Apostle Paul teach about the extent of the atonement in his epistles ?  (Part 5)

In 1 Timothy, we again encounter verses which some people try to use to teach that
Christ died for the entire human race. In 2:5-6, Paul said "For there is one God,
and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a
ransom for all, to be testified in due time." I posted a discussion of 1 Tim. 2:3-6
on the "Discuss Doctrine/The Bible/Re:For whom did the Lord Jesus Christ die? (And
why is it important?)" thread over a year ago (Feb. 01, 2003). I started by
discussing Acts 22:15, 2 Corinthians 3:2, Philippians 4:5 and 1 Thessalonians 2:15
and showed that the words "all men" is sometimes used in a general sense and does
not always mean "the entire human race, with no exceptions." I then pointed out that
the words "all men" is used in the immediate context (1 Tim. 2:1-2) to mean "ALL
KINDS OF MEN" not "the entire human race", and explained why I believe it has the
same meaning in v. 4 ("Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the
knowledge of the truth"). I concluded with these comments on v. 6: "Does he really
mean, as many believe, that Christ "gave himself a ransom for ALL MEN WITHOUT
EXCEPTION"? If so, then "ALL MEN WITHOUT EXCEPTION" will be freed (from sin) and
saved, because that is what is involved when "a ransom" has been paid. Since I don't
believe that "ALL MEN WITHOUT EXCEPTION" will be freed from sin and saved, I don't
believe Paul meant that, whatever it is that he really meant (whether "ALL KINDS OF
MEN" or "ALL WHO WILL BE SAVED" or something else)." John Gill's discussion of 1
Tim. 2:4 is also worth consulting
(http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Cause_of_God_and_Truth/Part%201/section_45.htm),
where he makes the following comment on v. 6: "It is observed that Christ is said,
in verse 6, to give himself a ransom for all, which is understood of all men in
particular; but it should be observed also, that this ransom is antilutron uper
pantwn, a vicarious ransom substituted in the room and stead of all, whereby a full
price was paid for all, and a plenary satisfaction made for the sins of all, which
cannot be true of every individual man, for then no man could be justly condemned
and punished."  

I haven't been able to find any verses on the extent of the atonement in 2 Timothy,
but there are some interesting verses that I would like to point out briefly. In
1:9, Paul said that God has saved us "NOT according to OUR WORKS, BUT according to
HIS OWN PURPOSE and GRACE" and that this was "GIVEN US in Christ Jesus BEFORE THE
WORLD BEGAN". In 2:10, Paul said "Therefore I endure all things for THE ELECT'S
sakes, that THEY may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal
glory."  

In Titus (2:13-14), Paul clearly taught that the Lord Jesus Christ gave Himself for
US (believers, His people, the elect) and redeemed US ("Looking for that blessed
hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who
gave himself for US, that he might redeem US from all iniquity, and purify unto
himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works."). I haven't been able to find any
verses in Titus where Paul said that the Lord Jesus Christ gave Himself for the
entire human race or redeemed the entire human race.
 
I haven't been able to find any verses on the extent of the atonement in Philemon.
Although there are some who believe that Paul wrote Hebrews, since the author does
not identify himself, I am going to deal with Hebrews in the answer to question 5.

In summary, in most of his epistles, Paul clearly taught that the Lord Jesus Christ
died for US (believers, the elect, the Church). I have not been able to find a
single verse in any of Paul's epistles where he clearly SAID that the Lord Jesus
Christ died for the entire human race, even though there are a few verses (in 2
Corinthians and 1 Timothy) which some people INTERPRET (incorrectly, in my opinion)
in that way.    
Logged
al Hartman
Guest


Email
« Reply #34 on: March 25, 2004, 04:18:15 pm »




     Before all else, let me recognize the extent of H's study to present his case.  The labor, while surely one of love, has been extensive.  May it bear much fruit to the glory of our Lord.

     If anything has been presented with abundant clarity, it is that the oft-emphasized WE & US, along with certain other less-frequent pronouns in the many references cited, pertain to the Elect, the Church, the Redeemed of the Lord.  Along with this is the fact that H found no place in all of Paul's writings that clearly justifies without doubt the claim that Christ died for the entire historic world's population of mankind.  H asks us whether anyone besides himself sees a pattern in this study.

     Certainly a pattern is evident, at least in part.  It may also be stated that no verse of Paul's indisputably states that Christ did not lay down His life on behalf of that same population in its entirety, regardless of the intensity with which such may be argued.  It remains a point of view, a matter of interpretation, rather than a clear fact.

     That the efficacy of the Redemtion is only to the Elect is indisputable.  The question lies in the nature of the election:  What, exactly is it that makes the Elect elect?  We will surely all agree that the election is God's choosing; the Elect those whom He has chosen in Christ before the world began.  But upon what basis are they chosen?
     We should recognize that, because of His indisputable sovereignty, God owes us no explanation of His ways.  He may freely choose whatever, whyever and however He will, without challenge.  That He would desire to share such knowledge with us should amaze and thrill us beyond measure, because there is nothing in us that could demand or deserve it.  So the reason for God's electing only some from among all is not subject to our evaluation or approval, but should surely inspire our immense interest.

     Is there any doubt that none of us could respond to the grace of God except by the grace of God?  Of His fulness have we all received, and grace for grace.  That is to say, it takes God's grace to receive God's grace.  How great is His faithfulness to us, how beyond finding out are His ways!

     Now let us suppose that God did love every soul that ever would live, and Jesus Christ laid down His life so that every one of us would have equal opportunity to receive eternal life through believing in Him, and that the Spirit of God provides to every person a measure of grace sufficient to enable them to accept the gift of His sacrifice.  None of this precludes a limited atonement nor makes the blood of Christ ineffectual because while the gift of God is offered unto all, it only functions for those who receive it, and the receiving of it is an act, not of the flesh, but in response to grace, and enabled by grace.  All of this is, of course, foreknown (foreordained, if you will) by God in eternity, but does nothing to negate the free will of humanity-- the enablement is given; the choice is offered.
     If I should pay the required price to buy a slave's freedom, but that slave, afterward, knowingly chooses to stay with his master, have we not both made legitimate choices?  My ransom was not without merit, for it actually redeemed that person.  That the person in question refused the gift and returned willingly to bondage merely refuses, but cannot erase the effectiveness of the price paid.
     On the night of the passover, if a Hebrew partook of the sacrificed lamb but failed to splash its blood upon the lintels of the house, what would the result have been?  The price was paid when the lamb was slain, and failure to apply the blood could not negate that, but certainly would prevent one's participation in the benefit thereof.
     So, in the scenerio suggested above, the Elect, the WE/US of all H's epistlary citations, would consist of those, chosen before time, who respond in time, by grace, to the gift of God.  The election, thus defined, is still entirely a matter of God's choosing and entirely according to God's grace, in spite of the inclusion of man's free will.

     I am not saying that I believe this, nor that I disbelieve H's presentation.  I appreciate the merits of both viewpoints, but remain unconvinced of either.  I am not unwilling to accept a clearcut concept, but I am not certain one is available (or necessary) at present, because I have yet to see one that impresses me as being such.  I do believe, however, that if it is crucial to my faith, to my spiritual walk, to my worship or service to Christ (i.e., if it is important to Him at any point in time), that I will see the truth of this matter because I am willing and desirous, and He is able to deliver me.

al


« Last Edit: March 25, 2004, 04:38:27 pm by al Hartman » Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.11 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!