Seeing things differently

[delila]

Delila:

I don't know you, but I was in the SLO assembly, and I want to say I see a great woman of strength in you.

I commend and laud you for being of the same cloth of a Abagail: in the midst of difficult circumstances an inner strength that shines now. I know whatever things that have taken place for all of us, in our moments, the Lord looks upon us like David looks upon Abagail and sees something of great worth. David married Abagail after he judged Abagail's fool of a husband. The reason why David married her is very much like what Christ sees in the church -- or what I would say in us: We are worthy in Him to be his bride. His longing, his concern is for you, me and everyone who calls on his name.

I say to one, and I say to all 2004 will be a year where God will make breakthroughs, and new places for us if we take a hold of Him! God bless you all!!!

Gordon:

That's a pretty big comparison to make.  Most liken me to the woman caught in adultery, the woman who washed Jesus' feet with her hair, the woman who cut Samson's hair.  I'm not sure I agree with such a big comparison but it was big of you to make it.

From my understanding, SLO was one of the biggest pits of hell in the assembly framework.  Have you posted your story?  I'll have to look for it.  Other people's stories are so instructive to me.  They don't just validate my own, they open my eyes to things I didn't see before.  I'm going to look for the story of Abigail and read it again.  It's been a long time.

Thanks,
Delila

[M2]

Hey Delila,

Saul, before he was Paul, had to fall off his high horse before he came to his senses.  It was God's mercy that he didn't break his neck and only suffered temporary blindness instead.  What kind of "awakening" to these ones need, baffles me?  Of course, they might possibly say that it is us that need to fall off our high horses, as we are the ones presecuting them and God's work.

20-30 years ago some of them pronounced 'Ichabod" on existing churches in their localities.  20-30 years later those churches are still going strong, whereas the assembly is "Ichabod".

But, as you said, the show must go on.  Oh well...

So... Are you going to post your picture now that Brian has solved the post-personal-picture problem??

Lord bless,
Marcia

[delila]

oh marcia,

you know how long it took me to figure out how to use the bb.  technology is almost as challenging as assembly logic.
pray for me
delila

[delila]

What is Salvation?

Some found 'salvation' in the assembly, indeed, GG said: the work is your salvation, and we said Amen.  Is this true?  When people 'found salvation' among us we told them "The angels are rejoycing", and then we bullied them on in their 'walk with the Lord'.  I've been accused of cynicism, I know.  But I don't embrace cynicism.  I find no healing in cynicism.  Quite honestly, as I've confessed to others privately, I am really quite optimistic about there being much hope for all of us.  I even flatter myself with moments of confidence: you're a kind of forward thinkger, I say to me.  

But this morning I am considering salvation and the assembly and really choking on the question: what was our salvation?  What was I saved from?  What was I saved to?  Is my salvation anything more than a realization and associated confidence?  Is there anything more than realization and associated confidence?  Is there anything more elevated than realizing that you are, that you are something by virture of being created that?  Is there anything more gratifying than knowing.  I think; therefore I am, I know therefore I am.  I am confident.  Belief: it's almost a minimizer compared to knowing, isn't it?  Faith.  Faithfulness.  Soemone wrote me recently with a thought that divorce is not sanctioned by scripture except in the face of unfaithfulness.  By that I assume he meant sexual unfaithfulness, as if that were the only demoralizing kind of unfaithfulness.
Salvation - divorce: why the flip flop?  And why not?  Since divorce (I believe I read once that CS Lewis was divorced too) seems to be set in antithesis against God's external faithfulness in the gg dynasty, if not in many people'sminds, in scripture.  Christ - the bridegroom, the church - the bride.  Marriage a picture of that union.  One of George's favorite traps too.  The Cinderella story of Western culture - minus the glass slippers  and the happy ever after.
drj

[outdeep]

I know a single woman who adopted several kids.  She said that this was her "salvation" from a self-centered life.  What she meant was that having kids helped her leave her self-absorbed party lifestyle and find contentment in living for others.  She didn't mean it in the "justified before God" sense.  When George said "your salvation is in the work", he was speaking in the same sense as the single woman, not the Biblical sense.  I can say, for instance, my job is my salvation from a purposeless existance.  However, this is a figure of speach, not a Biblical doctrine of salvation.

As for what Christians believe about salvation, have you read anywhere what Evangelical Christians believe about salvation or "justification by faith"?  There are many Christian books that discuss this.  Billy Graham's books are a good place to start.  If not him, Greg Laurie.  I would have to guess that you know more than you let on if you were put to the test.

As for C.S. Lewis, I'm not sure he was divorsed, though I could be wrong.   He married a woman later in life who died of cancer and wrote about the experience in "A Grief Observed".  To my knowledge, he had no other marriages.  Either way, marriage is a picture of salvation and Evangelical Christians often do a lousy job carrying forth this picture.  It doesn't mean that God's ideal is misguided.  It just means His people mess up alot.
 

[Jem]

Dr. Lewis only married once. He was quite against divorce and remarriage on scriptural grounds until a certain American Divorcee got his attention. It caused quite a stir among his friends. Dr. Tolkien did not go to Mrs. Lewis' funeral because of this. Something he greatly regretted later realizing that no matter the sin of his friend he was in great pain and needed his friends.

That God hates divorce is clearly stated in scripture. That marriage is for life is assumed. That does not mean--as in cases of abuse--that divorce never becomes necessary. In that instance I think God hates it not so much because it is an infraction to cosmic law, but our Father knows the damage, the heartbreak, the sorrow it causes His children. As with our own children, He rejoices in our triumphs and feels with us our pains. In the experience of my friends I have found no pain so sharp or utter as divorce (except for the death of a child or spouse).

--Jem

[Mark C.]

Hi to All who have posted and those who have been reading here as well!  

  I miss a lot, due to the fact that I am on the road from time to time.  I was reading back through this topic and discovered some very interesting discussion that I missed.
  Dave and Delila, Re. "salvation":  GG well could have meant that what we were doing in the Assembly was literally for our "full" salvation!  If you want to get to the worst distortion provided by GG it was on this topic of salvation.  Evangelicals and Bible believing Protestant Christians believe that salvation is a gift, and that it is given in it's fullness at the new birth.
   GG used his false earned grace (an oxymoron) teaching as the carrot dangling in front of us to get us to pull his Assembly cart down the road.  We all thought that we almost had the carrot in reach, but it was always just beyond us.  
   What grace means for the Christian is that we are yoked together with Christ and learn to pull the cart with Him (But, God's cart is not the list of do's that GG preached).  Such "labor" does not seem like labor at all, for the burden is easy and light.  True representives of Christ do not load up God's people with "things to do for God", rather they help carry the burdens of people with them.
   What I see on this thread are those who are talking like one oxen to another, vs. the Assembly model of motivation that uses the whip and carrot.  The Assembly model had those who pulled the cart and those who drove the cart.
    In a true version of "walking with God" we should not even be aware of producing any kind of "work for God."  Those of us who think that we've lost all of our spiritual life because we have trouble reading the Bible etc. need to see that spiritual activities are a result of walking with God and not the means to that end.  Whether I read my Bible or not, Jesus' invitation to come near to Him and give Him my burden and find rest still stands; it is an invitation of sincere love and genuine care from our God that understands our total inability to live the Christian life without His grace!
   I see on this thread those who honestly express their difficulty with "doing spiritual disciplines", and in helping others with their pain in this regard.  Jesus calls this love, and that is the highest expression of fruitfulness that God can create in our lives.
  This is what I have often said:  From the ashes of our Assembly experience can come the discovery of what we were all seeking as we pulled the Assembly cart for GG--- a life with God!!  We have much to offer one another and those others whom God brings across our paths.  Not to teach them spiritual disciplines, but to help them see that God's love is real and that His grace can give them hope!!  All of you have helped me greatly!!
                                 God bless,  Mark C.  
   

[delila]

This morning I subbed at St. Mary's Catholic school.  Grade 7 viewed Jesus of Nazareth on video.  It is an incredible story - how Mary was asked to trust God - how her pregnancy with the Son of God could very well have meant her death by stoning.  How she trusted God.  I kept my tears in my face, wiped my nose a lot.  And Herod too, raving lunatic that he was, killing all the little ones.  Rachel, weeping for her little ones, and she would not be comforted.  The wise men too, somehow their wisdom - outside of scripture - yet wisdom anyway, lead them to the great king who would free all men from their sin.  Somehow.  And still I wonder at the actual essence of salvation.  That kings and shepherds alike were led to the baby in the manger.  I wonder, because I never want to go back to what I was.  I never want to drag my trap around and invite others too, raving to them about how kind God is, inviting them to step inside.  The little Lord Jesus asleep in the hay, the slaughter of children to erase Christ.  Mary: "Be it done unto thy maidservant according to thy word" I'm awed by Mary, though I once too said these words (seven years running) whatever you want Lord, I'm game.  Those words take courage, but more than that, faith.  Do I have that kind of faith?
drj

[al Hartman]

     ...Mary: "Be it done unto thy maidservant according to thy word" I'm awed by Mary, though I once too said these words (seven years running) whatever you want Lord, I'm game.

     That's you doing your part...

 ...Those words take courage, but more than that, faith.  Do I have that kind of faith?

     Christ has courage and faith in abundance-- more than enough for us all.  It is evident that He is doing His part...

[Recovering Saint]

What do you believe now?

George taught us a lot of his personal theology and many, myself included sopped it up like a sponge. My excuse is I never heard any other teaching before because I got saved in the Assembly, and thought that George knew practically everything. I am re-evaluating everything now both good and bad to see what “I BELIEVE” and “WHY I BELIEVE IT”.

I don’t necessarily support any of the things below. They are just points to consider to see what you personally believe. It is not a test there are no RIGHT answers. It is meant to challenge us to think about our glorious salvation and I believe it will help us to be stronger IF we are seeking Christ in it and not head knowledge so I can beat you with my arguments for and against.

Universal Reconciliation

I don’t subscribe to this doctrine but find it insteresting to study to understand where others are coming from.

http://www.growthingod.org.uk/UNIREC.HTM


Predestination

I have discussed this at length on the Limited Atonement threads.

http://www.growthingod.org.uk/PREDEST.HTM


Can a believer lose his or her salvation?

And about this passage does it mean you lose your salvation? I personally don’t think anyone who is truly saved can lose their salvation. But some say this is proof you can. Please read Scofield link below before saying anything first. He says it is the unbelieving Jew and not related to losing salvation.

6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6:6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
6:7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
6:8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/ScofieldReferenceNotes/srn.cgi?book=heb&chapter=006

Hugh

[lenore]

Having escaped the box, the trap of the GG mind, I'm now re-examining what I took for truth, how I took what I took for truth.

Circulating in my blood stream this morning is this, a paraphrase of course b/c I still haven't cracked my bible open.  And I'm glad btw, that I haven't, yet. Incidently, I also get sick to my stomach when I get "Oh, you'll come around, and when you get to that place... " like when I'm healed, I'll look and talk like you guys.

Why don't I want to be like many of you imply I should?  It is still the box, full of GG's lingo and implications and views life through a straw.  There's a lot more to see.

the circulation:
We don't know what we shall be but we know that one day we shall be like him for we shall see him as he is.

Selah for a long time, please.  Think about it.

Delila

JULY 27TH AT 11:53 PM:

I am resurrecting this first post on this thread of Delilah's.
Seeing thing differently, in reference to the assembly/GG teachings.

SEEING THINGS DIFFERENTLY AS A CHRISTIAN

Compared to a life of sin and a life saved from sin.

We should be seeing things differently in our own lifes, in the lifes of other believers, in our places of worship, and we should be seeing things differently from people who go to these places and in their own lifes as they proclaim the name of Jesus as their Saviour.

I am not talking about human weakness that our body languages tells others that we are ill, grieving, struggling.

It is the out right lies , that are out there for all the world to see.
Especially when a certain religion, because it name means Christian , that people born into this religion is automatic a Christian, and if they follow there rituals, they are automatic, and all there relatives have to do, when they die, is pray them into heaven. Even there children, grandchildren and great grandchildren are taught that on the anniversay of the relatives death, to pray for them. Even a child who hasnt even seen this ancestor  asks for prayer for them.  Which I believe when a child is praying GOd will honour that praying child.
But it is the adults, thinks they can go out and live the way they want to live, cursing, swearing, carousing, polluting their bodies and others around them,  and still expect to make it into heaven, upon peoples prayers for them.

Seeing things different in a Christian Lifes should be reflecting Jesus in your lifes.  In the way you speak, not the "f" abusive word coming out of your mouth every two seconds.   Even speech that is negative can be hard to distinguish a person from  world of Christ to the world period.  What about  a person who claims to be a evanglistic Christ and is repeatingly divorcing and remarrying every few years years. Where is the difference in this from the world of Christ to the world.
Not only that, they are constantly getting married within the church.  I can see divorced once as a mistake,  circumstances like abuse,  repeatly unfaithful spouse.  

What about a church or Christian Groups that form clicks, and makes it hard for even newly born Christians to enter in to that circle.  Where is the difference their.

What about Christians who gossip , slander, be snobbish, thinks there better than others, where is the difference in this?

I could go on and on, and repeatly write from my email soapbox.  I include myself in this sounding off. The lesson I say, I still need to learn, and do myself.

Seeing things different, it is not just seeing the truth coming out of an experience like the hurts, and abuses of the GG influences, but it is a daily exercise in the Christian life.  Coming out of any experience where we have been groping in the dark, that we are trying to find the light to see the truth, It is the truth that helps us see things differently.

Gidday from the Ottawa Valley

Lenore
Getting off her soapbox now

[al Hartman]

     OK, I admit it:  I remember when delila started this thread, & I'm amazed at how differently I look at many things than I did then.  And it's been less than six months!
    Sometimes when I'm cruising the new posts, I'll drop back a few pages on one thread or another, just to see the changes in direction that the conversation has made...  My own posts surprise me the most, because I seldom remember moving on from where I was when I wrote them to where I am now, and yet I definitely have moved on.

     Jesus told His disciples that He is the Vine and we are His branches:  We are to grow or we will wither; dormancy is not an option.  To not grow is ultimately to wither into uselessness.  But Jesus does not command us "Grow!"  Instead He says "Abide in Me."  To abide is to stay put and to live; to hold onto; to remain;  to dwell.  That's all He tells us to do, because that's all we can do.  We have not the resources to produce growth in ourselves-- only the Vine can do that.

     As a child I was usually the shortest kid in my class, and OH! how I wanted to grow.  It used to make me nuts when a relative or family friend would visit and say to me, "Look how you've grown!"
     I wanted to scream at them, "I haven't grown!  I'm just as short as I was yesterday!"  But that was the problem:  my perspective.  I looked in the mirror & checked my height against the pencil mark on the wall every day.  One day's growth is negligible.  These visitors hadn't seen me in months or years, and compared to their most recent memories, I must have seemed to have shot up like a weed.

    Jesus doesn't want us to taunt ourselves with daily growth-checks.  He wants us to look to Him, draw our life from Him, learn of Him, and let Him bear any concern for our growth.  Which of you by taking thought can...  Apart from Him we can do nothing.  Abiding in Him we lack for nothing.  Suddenly, one day the mark on the door is at eye level-- we no longer have to look upward to see it.  We have grown.  We are seeing things differently!

    Have you ever said to a really tall person, "How's the weather up there?"  (Don't!-- Really tall people have told me that line gets really old!!)  The point is that growth provides a different outlook.  Spiritual growth is no different in that respect.  A new believer will strain to grasp spiritual concepts, reaching as high and as deep and as far as possible, and may grow very frustrated with the inability to reconcile spiritual truths with the thought processes learned in the world of the unredeemed.  But with persistence will come the reward of things beginning to make sense, of truth prevailing over the ways of fallen humanity.  Growth occurs.  Things begin to appear differently.

    Standing on tiptoe never helped me, but as I learned to apply myself to the things I could do, I found that one day I had grown to be exactly as tall as I was meant to be.  So it is with the spirit of man:  We cannot change a thing about our true selves, but by applying ourselves to abiding in Christ, seeking to know Him, to understand Him, to appreciate the unspeakable gift of Him, and asking Him for His blessing in all such pursuits, we will utterly distract ourselves from the petty quests of self-interest.  We will grow and we will not notice.  We will not notice that we have grown until one day it dawns upon us that we are looking at something familiar and seeing it differently than we ever have before.

    Then let us be careful to give our gracious Lord both the thanks and the glory, for the process does not end there, but has just begun, and is meant to continue forever...