I want to talk about the curse

[delila]

I'm reading Genisis.  I'm camped currently on the exit from the garden.  The curse, delivered to the snake, the woman and the man.

Gen 3:16  "He will rule over you."

Of course, to George, that meant free reign fellows.  A man ruling over a woman.  I disagree that licence was given here, but rather, a different warning, if a man wants to take it.

Just as the ground was cursed, so too, Adam lost something in the fall and instead of the pure intent to share a parntership, Adam, in his fallen state, had a natural compulsion to rule over woman.  I don't think God's encouraging this rule here, I think he's warning that now, Adam's tendancy will not be what it was.

Any takers?

Delila

[Margaret]

Jeff VanVonderen and Dave Johnson (The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse, see Resources on ga.com) both have this view.  Jeff talks about it in his book, Families Where Grace Is In Place.   Dave Johnson covers it in his tape series on Ephesians.

[editor]

I'm reading Genisis.  I'm camped currently on the exit from the garden.  The curse, delivered to the snake, the woman and the man.

Gen 3:16  "He will rule over you."

Of course, to George, that meant free reign fellows.  A man ruling over a woman.  I disagree that licence was given here, but rather, a different warning, if a man wants to take it.

Just as the ground was cursed, so too, Adam lost something in the fall and instead of the pure intent to share a parntership, Adam, in his fallen state, had a natural compulsion to rule over woman.  I don't think God's encouraging this rule here, I think he's warning that now, Adam's tendancy will not be what it was.

Any takers?

Delila

Hi Delila,

Suzie and I struggled with this a few years back.  Being true believers, and committed Geftakysservants,  we implemented the Heavenly Vision in our marriage without compromise.

Life sucked...especially for Suzie.

About 5 years ago, my eyes began to open with the help of Tim Geftakys, of all people.  It's all in my book,  Navigating The Deeper Life.

Anyways,  the curse of the garden was to the serpent, the man, the woman, the ground, the plants, and everything else that Adam was supposed to be keeping and tending.  The tendency for men to rule over women, and for women to be "weaker" is not a benefit to man, nor a reward for Adam's rebellion, it is his greatest curse.

Men who rule over women and children by force miss out on life's greatest blessings, and the abuse they perpetrate over those dependent on them will not go unnoticed.  

Contrarily, those who understand that the curse is a really bad thing, and don't use this verse to justify being a domineering husband, understand that in Christ, the curse has been removed....in one sense.  Women and men still have physical results of the curse, as does the Earth, etc.   However,  we no longer have to treat our women like beasts of burden,  second class citizens, or "full-service" maids.  Leave that to the Muslims.

Suzie is my equal in every respect.  I defer to her in many areas, and she to me in others.  We both bring a different set of talents and skills to our marriage, and try to make the best use of them.  I reject the notion that I should rule over my wife on several grounds, the most important of them that Christ does not "rule" over his church,  even though He has all power and authority.

Suzie and I are both part of His church, and are therefore equals, co-heirs, and there is the fact that we love eachother too.

Geftakysism is a bad system for women.

Brent

[outdeep]

We had a discussion about this two weeks ago in a morning men's group I attend.  Neither the statement, "your desire will be for your husband" and "he will rule over you" were positive statements.  The language behind the "desire for her husband" suggests an intention to usurp (so my studious pastor maintains - I'm not a Hebrew expert).   The language behind "he will rule over you" suggests authoritarian, beating down behavior.

These two abuses of relationships were not known to the charter couple until the curse.  The passage is not condoning this behavior but explaining how relationship breakdown and abuse originated.  As redeemed people, our behavior should be as God originally intended, not as cursed humanity dictates.

[Oscar]

Hi folks,

I just want to inform you that I AM THE BIG POTATO in my house!

I make the decisions!  ALL the important decisions.

Like, What should the president do, what the United Nations should do, How the war on terror should be fought.  The REALLY important stuff.

I delegate the small stuff to my wife.  You know, stuff like, how we should spend our money, how we should raise our kids, where we should go on vacations, what we are doing this weekend.   The little stuff.

God bless,

Thomas Maddux
 

[delila]

You people!

I keep expecting all of you to stand up and point at me with your index fingers: "Heritic!" and it just keeps not happening.

That's refreshing!

I just finished a book called "The Crow who tampered with Time" by Lloyd Ratzlaff - a former Christian fundamentalist, raised in a very strict Menonite background, and a Saskatchewan writer, like myself.  Pure 'fluke' that I found his book.  Creative nonfiction, he writes.  Here's a quote from "The Barrier of the Patriarchs"

"A friend drove into the country one day to inspect a test plot... Hundreds of cages stood there, each containing a bird; but one door hung from a broken hinge, and a turkey stood on the threshhold, diminutive head peering into the world, body bulking safe in a cage till Thanksgiving... a Far Side cartoon....
"Why must the partriarchal barrier be broken through?  So that we are not diverted by dogmas of a Christ growing in wheat but not in rice.  So that women are not cowed by decrees, canons, ordinances, and regulations about how high they shall be allowed to ascend.  So that patriarchs (LBS) stop raping us and leaving us with 'the emotions that persist after the facts have faded'...So that the religion of Jesus doesn't turn into a doggerel about Jesus, where dead scriptures are more important than living persons, and where past and future are pirates of the eternal Now.

"Why must we pass through the barrier? So we're not turkeys in broken cages.  So any world we enter becomes our playground.  Even a world of patriarchs."

I was so blessed by this.  I read it again and again.

Delila

[wmathews]

Tom and all,
    I agree this is a refreshing topic to those of us spiritual 'jocks' who felt we must conform to the 'bringing our wives in submission' bit.  From your description, Tom, you are a realist, which is why, as a medical guy, I have observed that women actually do much better than men without their mates than men!  I actually think this is both a curse ( in the fracturing of relationships) and a blessing ( in the grace-enabled emulation of Jesus) to both husband and wife.  I taught an interesting bible study to High School students this morning on Esther 1...read it and tell me what would Jesus do in this situation?  There is no doubt in my mind that Jesus was a radical in the patriarchal society He lived!  Can we men be secure enough in our manhood to behave as He did?   A challenge to us all...SELAH.
Wayne (still crazy about Pat after all these years).  

[Oscar]

Folks,

I think that Church, the company of the redeemed, should reflect the mind of Christ in the area of marriage.

Ephesians 5:20-23 gives the basic guidlines.  After 39 years of marriage, I have never seen anything that improves on this.  (I don't claim to have scored 100% every day)

In any relationship, someone is always dominant party.  The key is to decide going in who is in charge.  The best choice is Christ.

In many marriages, the issue of dominance is settled by strength of will.  The one who can cause the other the most emotional pain for the longest time wins.  The other one grudgingly gives in.

We have not so learned Christ.

The Bible doesn't teach 21st Century egalitarianism.  But it is pretty hard for a man to mistreat his wife while "nourishing and cherishing" her.  Nourishing her includes her body, soul and spirit.  It means helping her to flourish.   Cherishing means being very concerned for her welfare.  

Values like courtesy, consideration, kindness, attentivness, friendship, listening, and so on, flow out of these ideas.


Making decisions for your family should be a serious responsibility, (after all, we are responsible to God),  not a license to indulge oneself.

Just my .02.

God bless,

Thomas Maddux

[al Hartman]

     Well, thanks everybody!  After 36+ years of marriage, Cathy now insists that I stop beating her immediately and give her keys to the house, the car & the closet where her shoes are.  And I'm now sleeping on the couch, pending the building of a doghouse in the backyard.  Oh, and I get to build it myself!

     Geftakysism is a bad system for women.

     Hmmm... It seems to have worked OK for Betty.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

     All kidding aside, thank you and thank God for this thread.  You're all right on the mark.

God bless all here,
al

[wmathews]

Thanks Tom and Al,

    Ephesians 5 is STILL the best guideline after 24+ years of this wonderful thing called marriage which God, not the courts or the church, designed.  And thanks to Delilah for courageously stimulating this dialogue.....
I would love to hear from some of the wives on experiences, scriptural lessons, etc. on this topic.

Wayne

[Kimberley Tobin]

Folks,

I think that Church, the company of the redeemed, should reflect the mind of Christ in the area of marriage.

Ephesians 5:20-23 gives the basic guidlines.  After 39 years of marriage, I have never seen anything that improves on this.  (I don't claim to have scored 100% every day)

In any relationship, someone is always dominant party.  The key is to decide going in who is in charge.  The best choice is Christ.

In many marriages, the issue of dominance is settled by strength of will.  The one who can cause the other the most emotional pain for the longest time wins.  The other one grudgingly gives in.

We have not so learned Christ.

The Bible doesn't teach 21st Century egalitarianism.  But it is pretty hard for a man to mistreat his wife while "nourishing and cherishing" her.  Nourishing her includes her body, soul and spirit.  It means helping her to flourish.   Cherishing means being very concerned for her welfare.  

Values like courtesy, consideration, kindness, attentivness, friendship, listening, and so on, flow out of these ideas.


Making decisions for your family should be a serious responsibility, (after all, we are responsible to God),  not a license to indulge oneself.

Just my .02.

God bless,

Thomas Maddux

Interesting take Tom.    From what I understand, I was blamed for our departure as a family from the assembly (along with my daughter Brittni.)  Prior to our leaving, the groundwork was laid by the leadership to paint our marriage as one that had to be carefully monitored in order that my husband, Greg, not be "railroaded" or "led" by me, the wife.  I was the more vocal, the more outgoing, etc.  He is naturally more passive and quiet, reserved.  However, he is no pushover, no pansie.  He will not let me lead him.  However, he is, as Tom pointed out, a kind, gentle, caring, compassionate man who COMPLEMENTS ME.

We each have our gifts, our strengths.  The wonderful thing about my husband is that he is not threatened by my strengths, which happen to be of a more "male" quality, if you will.  This enables our marriage to work in a wonderful, synergistic relationship.  We work "together", he does not "dominate" me.

This was a threat to the assembly leadership from the beginning.

[delila]

More about the curse:  Mother, May I?

What about that Noah, getting all tanked up in his tent, buck naked, and in comes his son, getting an eye full.  Now, I've heard some preaching on this, assembly style and with all the shame and guilt by the dozens in that turkey cage, it's not hard to imagine what was said.

But what's this about nakedness anyway?  I don't really get it.  Porn aside.  Seriously, folks, what do a drunken old man's ragings matter all that much?  So Noah pronouces this curse against his youngest son and blesses the other two who came in with the blanket to cover him.  The scripture doesn't say if Noah had sobered up yet when he made the pronouncements either.  Just that he said them: curses and blessings.

And another thing, lots of sons gettin' born in Genisis, but no daughters important enough to mention.  Why's that?

Delila

[delila]

 

Interesting take Tom.    From what I understand, I was blamed for our departure as a family from the assembly (along with my daughter Brittni.)  

...And Kimberly and Brittini Tobin were saved, and all their household.... So great was the power and Spirit of God in that place etc etc.

Love,

Delila

[editor]

More about the curse:  Mother, May I?

What about that Noah, getting all tanked up in his tent, buck naked, and in comes his son, getting an eye full.  Now, I've heard some preaching on this, assembly style and with all the shame and guilt by the dozens in that turkey cage, it's not hard to imagine what was said.

But what's this about nakedness anyway?  I don't really get it.  Porn aside.  Seriously, folks, what do a drunken old man's ragings matter all that much?  So Noah pronouces this curse against his youngest son and blesses the other two who came in with the blanket to cover him.  The scripture doesn't say if Noah had sobered up yet when he made the pronouncements either.  Just that he said them: curses and blessings.

And another thing, lots of sons gettin' born in Genisis, but no daughters important enough to mention.  Why's that?

Delila

Hi Delila,

If you study Genesis, and employ an understanding of the Hebraic mindset, look at what the Midrash, and the rabinical traditions have to say, etc.  a person understands that Noah pronounced this curse on Ham, not as a reuslt of one little mistake, but due to a clear tendency to evil in Ham and his son, Canaan.

History bore out the fact that not only were Ham and Canaan cursed, but their descendants were cursed......AND THEY DESERVED IT!

As for daughters not being mentioned I could say several things.  First of all, we are talking about a patriarchal family  (Noah, through Eber, Through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the twelve Patriarchs)  amongst and even more patriarchal culture.   The fact that Sarah is mentioned so much, and that her speech is quoted in the New Testament, when she commanded her husband, Abraham, to "Cast out the bondwoman and her son!  

This is set the current culture on its head, in a sense, especially when God told Abraham to "listen to your wife."

Think about it.  The Bible isn't anti-feminist, or chauvenist at all.  However, dishonest, insecure men will happily twist it to meet their own agenda, which is what you and I experienced.

Sadly, much of what we see today in the radical feminist agenda is nothing but the well earned backlash from the disgusting men treated women in God's name over the the last hundred or so years.  

Reaction, while understandable, is not the answer.  Repentance and forgiveness is.  The thing that helped me more than anything else was when I apologized to my wife,  about 7 years ago.  No kidding, minutes after that, the scales fell off my eyes and I began to see light for the first time in many years.

Brent

[BeckyW]

Thanks Tom and Al,

    Ephesians 5 is STILL the best guideline after 24+ years of this wonderful thing called marriage which God, not the courts or the church, designed.  And thanks to Delilah for courageously stimulating this dialogue.....
I would love to hear from some of the wives on experiences, scriptural lessons, etc. on this topic.

Wayne

I agree.  One thing I've enjoyed lately is getting to know some older couples in a small group setting.  By older I mean married for 4 or 5 decades.  They are Christians, & they demonstrate mutual love and respect in how they relate to each other.  One couple reminded me of Hap and Helen G. from Norfolk, who we met many years ago.  Hap once told Phill that before he was saved, he had been "wilder than a cigar store Indian".
Personally, I would say it is hard not to love and respect an Eph. 5 husband.  
Becky