I want to talk about the curse

[delila]

Not until the more exalted concept of man and his intimate dignity as a person created in the image of God had permeated the world as a product of Bible teaching did a strong sentiment arise in Christendom in criticism of slavery and a questioning of its right to exist. No equivalent movement toward abolition is discernible in any non-Christian civilization for which we have any knowledge
 

That's encouraging.  But what is this need we have to curse things?

Even those with no professed religion say "God Damn you!" and why?  What is it in us, what was it in Noah that made him want to curse?

Who are we to have to curse others?

I don't get it?

drj

[M2]

 I urge you to re-consider you line of attack on this matter.

Lord bless,
Marcia

I beg your pardon Ms Marcia. Exactly what attack are you referring to?
Trust me, you have not seen me in attack mode...
Verne
p.s. Brent is a big boy and hardly in need of your defense; so am I. And yes, I still think your comment that Indians tend to be tardy was boorish;generalizations of that type usually are...too bad you don't seem to get it...

Verne,

I am colored myself and have been the brunt of 'racial' commentary, so I understand the feelings that arise when 'white' people make insensitive comments.

This discussion about Noah cursing Ham does not, however, have to do with racism.  I agree that people misuse the Bible to justify their prejudices, but that is aside from the fact that Ham was cursed by Noah.

The reason I lump Indians as tardy is because it is generally true.  On the other hand I did say that Indians tend to be tardy, which indicates that not all are.

I was away today, celebrating my brother's 10th Birthday. He will be 40 on the 29th Feb, 2004. So I have only just gotten an opportunity to read the posts of the day.

Lord bless,
Marcia

[al Hartman]

...what is this need we have to curse things?

Even those with no professed religion say "God Damn you!" and why?  What is it in us, what was it in Noah that made him want to curse?

Who are we to have to curse others?

I don't get it?

drj

     Interesting question, and I'm not sure there is an absolute answer to be found in scripture.
     My opinion is that it is the fruit of mankind's collective sensing of our own accursedness; an innate knowledge that God has pronounced judgement upon us producing in us the angry desire to pass the curse along to others.  The subjective realization of our fallen state is similar to the "god-shaped vaccuum in the heart" of every person.  The urge to pass it on follows the concept of waste rolling downhill...

just my shilling & ha'pence,
al

[vernecarty]

 What I was trying to say was that Ham and Canaan DID deserve the curse, and historically it is a proven fact that son's of Ham----generally black people from Africa----have been cursed to serve their brethren.

I take issue with this quote on the follwing grounds:
Factual
While the text ascribes culpability for the disrespectful conduct to Ham, he is clearly not the one who is cursed. It is Canaan.
There have been all sorts of linguistic contortions to deny this obvious fact, including specious claims that Ham is called Canaan in verse 26 of Genesis 9. It is quite ironic that Noah's specific intention to not indict all of Ham's progeny by limiting the curse to only one of them, has been turned on its head by those apparently only too eager to find a Biblical basis for casting aspersions on "generally black people from Africa". This  assertion is certainly not new. It is not surprising to find the national media obsessed with "black pathology". It is still startling to me to find it in the church. For those of you unfamiliar with this concept, in addition to the books Wayne recommeded I recommend Airing Dirty Laundry, if you can find it, by Ishmael Reed, who is by no means a godly man, but nevertheless will rock your world. The kind of denial, obfuscation and double-speaking that goes on around the matter of race in this society is sickening, You want to talk about intellectual honesty? Read your history! There is nothing intellectually honest about the way so many of our white brethren deal with the history of racism in the church.
The progenitors of the black peoples of Africa most scholars agree was not Canaan but the two sons Cush and Put, who, as stated, were not named in Noah's curse, To extend the curse to all of Ham's offspring is not warranted by the text.
The use of the present perfect tense "have been" suggests a permanent and on-going condition. Have any of you ever seen a Canaanite?
It is the very height of ignorance to suggest that black people in Africa today, or anywhere else, for that matter have anything whatsoever to do with Noah's curse of that particular son of Ham.
How the assertion is a proven fact is also unclear. Are we to assume that an examination of the history of black inhabitants of Africa would reveal a particular history of servitude to their (presumably white?) brethren as compared with non-black folk everywhere? What historical facts constitutes such proof? Most of us when we think of slavery think of black folk, understandable in view of the American experience. I suggest you check the relationship of the term to Slavic, as a reference to a people.

Historical
Assume for a moment the Biblical record of servitude in some way constitutes evidence for the validity of the statement, and I quote:

"...historically it is a proven fact that son's of Ham-generally black peopke from Africa, have been cursed to serve their brethren"

It so happens that the Bible seems to take a keen interest in this matter of servitude. A cursory examination of the Bible would reveal an extended time of servitude for the nation of Israel in the land of Egypt- were they cursed?
A cursory look at the book of Judges for example reveals:

Servitude to the king of Mesopotamia - 8 years
Servitude to the king of Moab - 18 years
Servitude to the king of Cannan - 20 years
Servitude to the Midianites -7 years
Servitude to the Philistines - 18 years
Servitude to the Philistines - 40 years
I will not mention the Assyrian captivity from which there was no return, nor the Babylonian captivity, nor...
Trying to invoke historical evidence for a universal curse of servitude on particularly all of Ham's sons is risky business indeed. It would appear Brent, that history contradicts you my friend.

I know we can play the historical game ad nauseam but I have a simple question.
Why would anyone, knowing the history of race relations in this country, and what so-called Christian people have done to black folk invoking exactly that language in Genesis 9, make the pronouncement that:

... historically it is a proven fact that son's of Ham----generally black people from Africa----have been cursed to serve their brethren.  

Is this what we teach our children?
Is this what we would say to a black child from Africa, or anywhre else that this is what  the Word of God teaches?
Most importantly, DO WE BELIEVE THIS STATEMENT IS TRUE???!!!
If so, it goes a long way toward explaining the state of race relations in the American church today...
Is this what we are going to say to the brothers in the 'hood when we share the gospel? They already know some of us think it...
I think some of us carry a greater influence of our Geftakys era than we care to admit...


Verne
 

[sfortescue]

Verne,

Perhaps you should double-check the meaning of the word "slavic".
It is totally unrelated to the word slave.

Here is a list of related words from a Russian dictionary:

slava -- glory, fame, reputation
slavit~ -- to glorify, to sing the praises of
slavit~sya -- to be famous for, to be renowned for
slavno -- wonderfully
slavnIy -- glorious, famous, renowned
slavoslovie -- glorification, paean of praise
slavyanin -- Slav
slavyanskiy -- Slavic, Slavonic

For comparison, here are some Russian slave words:

rab -- slave
rabota -- work
rabotat~ -- to work
rabotnik -- worker
rabotnitsa -- woman worker
rabskiy -- slave, slavish
rabstvo -- slavery, servitude, bondage
rabInya -- woman slave

The word robot came from a related Czech word.

[delila]

More about curses:

My grandmother tells me a story about her grandmother, in Grabicz Poland, sometime pre WWI.  Grama Hafiah opens her door and looks down on the step where someone's spilled an awful mess.  She has a bad feeling about it and calls the dog.  The dog runs up the step and into the mess and is immediately paralyzed.  Grandma tells me this was a curse left intentionally for her Grandmother by someone who hated her.  When once an assembly-ite and told this story, I thought my grandmother wako.  Now, I believe her.  

And for the record, no, I don't think a lot about UFO's

Delila

[wmathews]

Verne,

Perhaps you should double-check the meaning of the word "slavic".
It is totally unrelated to the word slave.

Here is a list of related words from a Russian dictionary:

slava -- glory, fame, reputation
slavit~ -- to glorify, to sing the praises of
slavit~sya -- to be famous for, to be renowned for
slavno -- wonderfully
slavnIy -- glorious, famous, renowned
slavoslovie -- glorification, paean of praise
slavyanin -- Slav
slavyanskiy -- Slavic, Slavonic

For comparison, here are some Russian slave words:

rab -- slave
rabota -- work
rabotat~ -- to work
rabotnik -- worker
rabotnitsa -- woman worker
rabskiy -- slave, slavish
rabstvo -- slavery, servitude, bondage
rabInya -- woman slave

The word robot came from a related Czech word.

You need to check the English etymology Stephen, not the Russian.
The word slave came into common usage because of the number of Slavs so affected in the early Middle Ages. Sorry about the confusion and thanks for the sharp eye. With guys like you around I cannot afford to make too many mistakes...
Verne

From Webster's dictionary: SLAVE: fr. Sclavus Slav: the frequent enslavement of Slavs in central Europe.
The English eytomology does apply here.

[tkarey]

Hey, I've been waiting for the reply to Verne's question, "Do you know where white people came from?" (I think it was Verne).

I've only heard one credible answer to that. My neice told me, and I see no reason not to believe it, that when God was making people he got really anxious and took the first batch out too soon. They still looked pasty and doughy and God called them white. On the next batch God didn't want to repeat the same mistake but this time took them out too late. They were very dark and God called them black. Finally, God put in a third batch and this time took them out at just the right time. These people were golden brown and their appearance pleased God very much, so he decided to stop. These people were called Hispanics.

BTW, my neice is 1/4 hispanic and has struggled with her identity all her life. She is studying education at school and has a heart for CA's migrant families.

Anyways, back to the topic.
 :)Karey

[Scott McCumber]

Hey, I've been waiting for the reply to Verne's question, "Do you know where white people came from?" (I think it was Verne).

I've only heard one credible answer to that. My neice told me, and I see no reason not to believe it, that when God was making people he got really anxious and took the first batch out too soon. They still looked pasty and doughy and God called them white. On the next batch God didn't want to repeat the same mistake but this time took them out too late. They were very dark and God called them black. Finally, God put in a third batch and this time took them out at just the right time. These people were golden brown and their appearance pleased God very much, so he decided to stop. These people were called Hispanics.

BTW, my neice is 1/4 hispanic and has struggled with her identity all her life. She is studying education at school and has a heart for CA's migrant families.

Anyways, back to the topic.
 :)Karey

I'm definitely pasty and doughy in the winter! But it won't be long before I'll be golden brown again.

S

[sfortescue]

You need to check the English etymology Stephen, not the Russian.
The word slave came into common usage because of the number of Slavs so affected in the early Middle Ages. Sorry about the confusion and thanks for the sharp eye. With guys like you around I cannot afford to make too many mistakes...
Verne

From Webster's dictionary: SLAVE: fr. Sclavus Slav: the frequent enslavement of Slavs in central Europe.
The English eytomology does apply here.

Yes, but Verne referred to the word Slavic rather than the word slave.  Of course, I made the mistake of not looking up the word slave, but it is still true that the word Slavic is not derived from the word slave, and it should not be interpreted in such a way.

You won't hear a Slavic person complain about it because in their culture they believe in pessimism.  They distrust anyone who is doing well.  They figure such a person must be a KGB informant (now called FSB) or else involved in organized crime.

[Scott McCumber]

Hey Scotty Baby! You need to get yourself a little but more M-E-L-A-T-O-N-I-N my man!! It's murder on both UV a and b bud...
Verne

Yeah, I've definitely learned to be more careful the last few years.

My motto for the beach these days is, "Apply early and often." I still get fairly dark and bleach out pretty good.

Not bad for a farmboy, huh?

S

[sfortescue]

Yes, but Verne referred to the word Slavic rather than the word slave.  Of course, I made the mistake of not looking up the word slave, but it is still true that the word Slavic is not derived from the word slave, and it should not be interpreted in such a way.

Most of us when we think of slavery think of black folk, understandable in view of the American experience. I suggest you check the relationship of the term to Slavic, as a reference to a people.

It is not my intention to be overly subtle. The point was that the word slave originally had nothing to do with black  people Stephen.

While talking about offences, it might be good to avoid offending Slavic people.

[vernecarty]

Yes, but Verne referred to the word Slavic rather than the word slave.  Of course, I made the mistake of not looking up the word slave, but it is still true that the word Slavic is not derived from the word slave, and it should not be interpreted in such a way.

Most of us when we think of slavery think of black folk, understandable in view of the American experience. I suggest you check the relationship of the term to Slavic, as a reference to a people.

It is not my intention to be overly subtle. The point was that the word slave originally had nothing to do with black  people Stephen.

While talking about offences, it might be good to avoid offending Slavic people.

My deepest apologies to all those of Slavic descent ( I do not say dissent! )
 I am not of the opinion, that it is a proven fact of history, that the sons of Japeth, generally white people of the Slavic region, have been cursed to serve their brethren...I do not believe that one bit you hear me??!!  
How's that for a disclaimer Stephen?
Verne

p.s Are we starting to get too cute? After-all this is a serious topic and maybe I should quit while the quitting's good....NYAAAHHH!
I was never one to take myself too seriously, thankfully...and why should I? nobody else does!  

[al Hartman]

While talking about offences, it might be good to avoid offending Slavic people.

Stephen, Stephen-- make up your mind.  You previously said:

You won't hear a Slavic person complain about it because in their culture they believe in pessimism.  They distrust anyone who is doing well.  They figure such a person must be a KGB informant (now called FSB) or else involved in organized crime.

...which sounds awfully like a broad generalization even stronger than saying that Indian people tend to be late...

There will be offenses--  Let us all be exercised to not be those by whom they come...

God bless,
al

[delila]

While talking about offences, it might be good to avoid offending Slavic people.

Stephen, Stephen-- make up your mind.  You previously said:

You won't hear a Slavic person complain about it because in their culture they believe in pessimism.  They distrust anyone who is doing well.  They figure such a person must be a KGB informant (now called FSB) or else involved in organized crime.

...which sounds awfully like a broad generalization even stronger than saying that Indian people tend to be late...

There will be offenses--  Let us all be exercised to not be those by whom they come...

God bless,
al

Al:

Ever read Gulag by Solzeniezen (I can never spell his name) Also wrote: One Day in the Life of Ivan Deninovich (also, how do they spell it?)  These Slavs, as you call them, have every right to their learned suspicions.  Talk about systematic oppression.  George has almost nothing on the governments these people survived.  No joking matter.  BTW Al, had you been living in that place at that time, you'd have been a sure target.  You're far too smart and far too nice.  You'd have been first on the list for interrogation and relocation.  You'd have been in Siberia,had you made it that far.  It ain't funny, hunny.

drj