Does Jesus Love Everyone?

[al Hartman]

Arthur I have had to  learn a hard lesson about the truth you have so simply and clearly stated and let me save you a bit of potential grief. Someone either grasps this truth or they do not. If they don't see it, don't even try my friend. It may be something the Lord has to broker; trust me...
Verne

     Verne, I wholeheartedly concur with your point here, but would carry it a wee bit farther:  The same may be said of any truth-- one either sees it or not.  Our best attempt at clear presentation may or may not be effective, but try as we will we cannot spare another the grief that comes of their frustration.  We each must do as we believe the Lord wants of us, and look to Him with confidence for the fruit thereof, whether or not it turns out to be what we expected of it.


 

from: Arthur on Today at 02:20:40pm
Is not the simplest solution often the best?  In discussing this matter with my friends, they said that this discussion has been going on for centuries and we're not going to solve it in one night.  I understand that and I don't presume that I would know something that the rest of humankind has not discovered these past millenia.  However, I hope that there is an answer. And I wonder at why it would not be as plain and obvious as the message of salvation.  Or is this something that is not for us to know or be able to comprehend? If so, I would be disappointed.  

   

     Arthur, I think all who love the Lord would like to know & understand as much as possible, and for the answers to be as simply grasped as possible.  But in the grand scheme, whether or not one of us would be (presently) disappointed is of little consequence...
     Nonetheless, we have the confidence Paul states in 1Cor.13:12, ...now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face.  Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.  As for knowing, it is the "then" that matters, immeasurably more than the "now."  Now is the time for faith...

from: Tom Maddux on Today at 06:25:29pm
I think the Calvinists are claiming to know more than they are capable of knowing...

...If God is as sovereignly majestic as they say he is...seems to me he can do it any way he likes.

     Tom, your "seems to me" is of no more significance than Arthur's disappointment insofar as influencing reality (what is), however your points seem pretty clear to me, too.

     All these things considered, is it any wonder that when Paul is teaching us in 1Cor.13 that love is of the utmost priority, he begins its definition (v.4) with the attribute of patience?

God bless us all,
al

[Arthur]

Arthur,

When you say, "Is not the simplest answer often the best?"

I can only answer, often it is. (Occam's Razor y'know).

Yeah, that's what I was thinking about.  It was in the movie Contact

One of the problems with this type of Reformed teaching is that they don't figure in the issue of time, or timelessness, as the case may be. We do not fully understand how God percieves time.  Most believe that all times are as present to his omniscience.

In other words...they have God making what they call "Decrees".   They argue about whether he decreed certain things before or after the fall...supralapsarianism versus sublapsarianism.

So...God didn't know who would be elect...then one "day" he suddenly decided to elect a bunch of folks to salvation, and damn the rest.  Supralapsarians think he just did it...sublaparianins think he waited until man fell, then decided.

Where does that leave God's omniscience.  Like He didn't know what he was going to do?  Then he found out what he was going to do?  

So, God doesn't even know what he will do in the future?

Huh?

I also believe that all times are as present to God.  That being the case, then all of what is recorded in the Bible - creation, fall, Christ's sacrifice, Christ's second coming, our being with Him for eternity - is all known by God and in plain view.  Maybe it's kinda like reading a book.  We hold the whole story in our hands and we can easily jump from first page to last page.  So too all of humanity's existence must be to God.  God is the Beginning and the End, the Aleph and the Tau, the Alpha and the Omega.

In response to your statement, "So...God didn't know who would be elect...then one 'day' he suddenly decided to elect a bunch of folks to salvation, and damn the rest..."

Could it be that God always knew who the elect are?
Could it be that for so long as God was in existence (that is, eternally), so too it was determined whom the elect would be.  I think this notion goes hand-in-hand with the purpose of man's existence.  Why did God create anything at all in the first place?  Why is it that God created man, and created him in his own image?  Is it the case that for eternity there was only God and not man, and yet for eternity there will be God and man?  Seeing as how we will be united with our maker as a bride with a bridegroom, it seems reasonable to me that the eternal determination of which beings would be with God for eternity is as eternally firmly established as God himself.  

So what is the purpose of the rest of humanity that will not be with God?
Surely, hasn't God likened humanity unto a wheat plant?  There is the part which is the fruit and there is the part which is the chaff.  The fruit is for God, the chaff is to be burned.  The righteous are the fruit, the wicked are like chaff and shall be burned.  
We are God's plants, intended for his pleasure.  He plants us, waters us and causes us to grow.  The spiritual seed that comes into our life and makes us to live is God's Word.  God sent the spirit of his Son (aka the Word of God) to live in our hearts.  By the Holy Spirit we are born again, begotten of God.  Our whole lives are of his life.  He gave us birth, lives in us and will be united with us for eternity.  If God, who is eternal, gave us birth and lives in us, then are we not also eternal, and hasn't our existence been intertwined with our maker from all eternity?  I'm not saying that we are on equal par with God, nor that we existed eternally.  But I am saying that since God is eternal and his eternal purpose was to create mankind and then be with man forever, then it makes sense that it was eternally determined who would be with him. I say "determined" for lack of a better term.  What I mean is that the lives of the elect are inseparably woven into God's fabric of eternity.  There was never a time when one became elect.  The elect always were elect.

It seems to me that this makes Christ's sacrifice like pixie dust. (I am illustrating, not mocking, here)  If a flake of pixie dust falls on you...you can fly.  Peter Pan says so.
So, if Christ's blood atoned for your sins, at least potentially, you are saved.  I'm not so sure.

I don't know that that's how it works at all.  I think that Christ's blood is quite able to atone for every sin ever commited by every human being.  A few "lightweights" like Athanasius and Gregory of Nazianzus agreed with this.

When the bulls, goats, rams and lambs were sacrificed, were they sacrificed for everyone?  Or were there were sacrificed for a particular people.  Atonement was not made for the sins of the Babylonians, Assyrians or the Phillistines, rather for God's chosen people--Israel.  It was quite a surprise to the Jews that the Christ was also the savior of Gentiles.  But it was still made clear in the New Testament that his sacrifice was for a people, God's chosen people, and not just everyone.  The difference was it was now a spiritual people and not just the earthly children of Israel--hence the new covenant.  

I agree that Christ's blood is powerful enough to atone for every sin ever commited by every human being.  But does he? Is that how God works?  He could have chosen more than just Abraham.   He could have given his law to more nations than just Israel.  He could have done it so many different ways, but he only chooses some and not others.  It doesn't sound fair but that's what's written as how he does it.

But that's the rub.  What was God thinking when he elected?  How can we know?

True.  We can only go by what is revealed in the Scripture..."According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world", etc.  From verses such as these Calvinists draw their conclusions I guess.

Regarding verses like John 3:16 and 1:29.  That's the problem Arthur.  If you need to act like a Jehovah's witness to make your system work...seems to me you might just want to rethink your system.

Heh, it's not my system.  I just want to get to the bottom of this issue and am exploring some lines of thought.  I may just write an equally passionate argument for free will if I have time.    This is something about which my mind is not made up.  Now, if we're talking about a 6 days creation on the other hand... well, y'know

Calvin knew about those arguments.  Even he rejected them.  The Bible says what it says.

Yes, I read somewhere that some of Calvin's followers tried to out-Calvin Calvin.  I'm sure it happens to this day.

Arthur

[moonflower2]

Don't both sides believe in limited atonement? Or am I wrong?

[Raymond D]

Arthur,

This has also been a topic that I've contemplated about in the recent weeks.

I guess if someone can explain the mystery of the Trinity, then the doctrine of unconditional election would be an easy topic.

I'm can say that God's Sovereignty is a comforting thought...if we are into classifications then I would classify myself as a 3/5 Calvinist.

Regards
Ray

[moonflower2]

The Death of Death in the Death of Christ: The Price He Paid

The book is long since out of print but I was able to secure a micro-fiche from the Rare Book Room at the graduate library of U of I.


Verne

Can you make some of the readings available to the rest of us?
Moonflower2

[Joe Sperling]

The book below that Verne mentions by John Owen is available through
"Banner of Truth Publishing" at $14.99/ea. Go to "book catalogue" at the top of the screen, then click on USA. and enter "death of death" or click on the letter d for books and the book is listed there for sale.

http://www.banneroftruth.org/pages/home.php


Thanks,  Joe

[moonflower2]

Thanks.
Isn't it telling that none of GG's "books" are listed for purchase anywhere?

[moonflower2]

 He gave us birth, lives in us and will be united with us for eternity.  If God, who is eternal, gave us birth and lives in us, then are we not also eternal, and hasn't our existence been intertwined with our maker from all eternity?  I'm not saying that we are on equal par with God, nor that we existed eternally.  But I am saying that since God is eternal and his eternal purpose was to create mankind and then be with man forever, then it makes sense that it was eternally determined who would be with him. I say "determined" for lack of a better term.  What I mean is that the lives of the elect are inseparably woven into God's fabric of eternity.  There was never a time when one became elect.  The elect always were elect.

Interesting. Some people argue that God choose because He knew what choice people would make. If you carefully look at the New Testament use of the word foreknowledge, (yes even Acts 2:23!) you find that it invariably refers to persons, never events. I wonder how those who argue that salvation is predicated on a response to the gospel deal with John 1:12, 13?

  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:  Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.  
 
Verne

I grew up with that one: God knew ahead of time that the elect would choose Him. But isn't it the person himself that God knows? The person's character is what determines his choices, isn't it? Aren't the two interwoven?

"...He gave them power to become....." but it's not given intravenously, so what are you saying here?

[al Hartman]

     The arguments are enticing, persuasive, compelling, but still inconclusive, which is to say that they are conclusive only to those whose minds are made up.  We will know when we know, and until then opinions shall abound, but it is strongly recommended that we treat them with respect & not wield them as weapons against one another.

     The following was just e-mailed to me:

      Lyman Beecher, the father of Uncle Tom's Cabin) author Harriet Beecher Stowe, was a New England minister who had a hard time with predestination, even though it was a tenet of his creed.  Once, as was often done in that day, arrangements were made so that he and another pastor would swap congregations on a Sunday-- each would travel to the other's church to preach.
The other pastor, upon conclusion of the arrangements, declared "It is preordained."  
     Beecher's reply was, "Well, in that case, I'm not coming."

     I can hardly wait to see what y'all do with that one!

al

[Oscar]

Verne,

You wrote,
"Interesting. Some people argue that God chose because He knew what choice people would make. If you carefully look at the New Testament use of the word foreknowledge, (yes even Acts 2:23!) you find that it invariably refers to persons, never events. I wonder how those who argue that salvation is predicated on a response to the gospel deal with John 1:12, 13?"

I find the "persons/events" distinction used in this argument meaningless.  For example, try this:

You have a wife, right.  Right now, in your mind, separate her life history from her personhood.   What is left?

If it were possible to separate a person from their life history, would you even have an adult body left?  What "personality" would be left?

So what is God supposed to elect...sperms? Or maybe he just elects a concept...but that could hardly be called a person.  Plus, since it would be something God holds in his omniscient thoughts, why wouldn't he also be aware of everything related to that person.

Maybe he just elects piles of meat and bones.  That wouldn't seem to fit the definition of "person" either.

So, before you begin your end zone dance,  , I think you need to define "person" in a way that makes sense in the distinction you have made.

God bless,

Thomas Maddux
Virulent Dog, First class etc. etc.

[Arthur]

Arthur,

This has also been a topic that I've contemplated about in the recent weeks.

I guess if someone can explain the mystery of the Trinity, then the doctrine of unconditional election would be an easy topic.

I'm can say that God's Sovereignty is a comforting thought...if we are into classifications then I would classify myself as a 3/5 Calvinist.

Regards
Ray

Ramoni!  Or should I say, Raymond - much more distinguished   So who has explained the mystery of the Trinity?  60% Calvinist now, what would you say you were when you were in?  I'm sure what fraction I am since I'm not entirely sure what both sides say, I just know what I believe now and what I used to believe then, and yes what I believe now is a whole lot more comforting and restful.   The assembly kinda got legalism and the sense that I need to accomplish something for God out of my system.

Arthur

[Gordon]

 

Ah, yes.

I had to jump in. When ARTHUR, Dan and i lived together...Arthur and i stayed up talking about stuff Arthur brings up. (Dan was smarter than me -- he went to bed)  

Arthur kept me up late many times, but in the end our discussions were always pretty sweet because we both came away pretty encouraged. (What a neat concept!) Arthur always did ask the good questions about scripture.

I admit, it's FAAAAAAAR easier talking with Arthur than writing. I would write my fingers to the bone to the equivalency of our past conversations.   hee hee

[moonflower2]

 He gave us birth, lives in us and will be united with us for eternity.  If God, who is eternal, gave us birth and lives in us, then are we not also eternal, and hasn't our existence been intertwined with our maker from all eternity?  I'm not saying that we are on equal par with God, nor that we existed eternally.  But I am saying that since God is eternal and his eternal purpose was to create mankind and then be with man forever, then it makes sense that it was eternally determined who would be with him. I say "determined" for lack of a better term.  What I mean is that the lives of the elect are inseparably woven into God's fabric of eternity.  There was never a time when one became elect.  The elect always were elect.

Interesting. Some people argue that God choose because He knew what choice people would make. If you carefully look at the New Testament use of the word foreknowledge, (yes even Acts 2:23!) you find that it invariably refers to persons, never events. I wonder how those who argue that salvation is predicated on a response to the gospel deal with John 1:12, 13?

  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:  Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.  
 
Verne

I grew up with that one: God knew ahead of time that the elect would choose Him. But isn't it the person himself that God knows? The person's character is what determines his choices, isn't it? Aren't the two interwoven?

"...He gave them power to become....." but it's not given intravenously, so what are you saying here?

Your question reminds me about the famously wayward man who was saved and upon giving his testimony regarding how he came to be saved asserted:

"God  did His part. And I did my part"

Upon being pressed as to who did what, he further explained:

"It was my part to run away from Him as fast as I could. It was His part to pursue until He caught me!"  

Remember the old hymn:

In tenderness He sought me, weary and sick with sin
And on His shoulders brought me
Back to the fold again...
O' the love that sought me, O' the love tht bought me O' the grace that brought me to the fold, wondrous grace that brought me to the fold!

Perhaps you assume getting the power to become is extravascular to the act of receiving Him?
As you say, might they not be interwoven?
Whatever God knew about our characters Monnflower2, it certainly did not recommend us to HIm. We were by nature children of wrath even as others.
God's foreknowledge has nothing to do with some kind of spiritual meriticracy, it has to do with His purpose!  

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us  

May His Name be praised!!

Verne
p.s. This feels a little bit like a scene form rhe seventies T.V series with David Carradine - "Kung Fu" where the wise old blind sensei would give sage counsel to the litte "Grasshopper", Carradine
Where did you get the name Moonflower2?  

Well, I never thought that there was anything in me that God would pick, so I guess that line of thinking won't work, especially when I look at what was accomplished, and why, on the cross. To make a finished product.....

But isn't God pursuing every man?
Can you really say that God would choose one person to give grace to and not another?
Zech. 12:10 says that God will pour his spirit on the Jews and THEN they will recognize Jesus.  It would follow then, that if God poured his spirit on the whole world that the whole world would get saved, eh?


A Moonflower is  favorite flower of mine. It is a large white flower that grows on a vine and doesn't open until late afternoon, blooms all night and is closed by morning. Its fragrance is incredible. It blooms in darkness......

[H]

Does Jesus Love Everyone?

I don't think so, at least not in the same way and to the same extent. For example, look at what He said in Matthew 25:31-34, 41:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: ... Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: ..."

These verses give me the distinct impression that the Lord Jesus Christ loves the people in the first group (His sheep) and doesn't particularly love the people in the second group (the goats). For additional examples, see my posts on the "What do the Scriptures teach about the extent of the atonement?" thread on the Bible forum.

[Joe Sperling]

H----

I know I'm a bit unorthodox, but I do believe that
Jesus loves everyone. The verse you shared happens
AFTER this dispensation is over. During this dispensation (in my opinion) ANYONE can come to be saved---the door is open to ALL.  AFTER this dispensation is over, and God turns to judge the world, he will divide up, and make a difference, and hate those who rejected his Son. But right now he loves all men equally, and all men have a chance to come to him.

Again, this is my opinion(based on John 3:16) and "God is no repecter of persons".

---Joe