THE HOLY SPIRIT - A QUESTION

[Gordon]

I am listening to a great sermon by Jim Cymbala, pastor of the Brooklyn Tab...everyone should read his book FRESH WIND FRESH FAITH.

Jim Cymbala said: "For some churches if the Holy Spirit LEFT the church they wouldn't even know it. The reason is that they never depended on it so if the Holy Spirit left, they wouldn't even know it."

Jim Cymbala was citing easy examples: Some churches full of white people preaching against blacks and vice-versa. There was even one cult who said true love was EROS love and advocated sexual relationships among the church, but his point was clear: churches need the Holy Spirit.

***

My question: In a corporate setting, how do you know if the Holy Spirit is at a church --- now that you all came out of a post-assembly experience? OR How do you know if the Holy Spirit is NOT at a church?

I think this is relevant question because in the Assembly all of us were sitting under the ministry of George, and all said AMENs, BUT THE man was living an immoral life. So what things do we see NOW that we didn't see THEN?

[Gordon]

Why I believe this is such an important question:

It's one of the biggest reason why you should go to a particular church. If God does not honor a place with his Spirit there's really no reason to go to that church, but how do you know? You SHOULD know because it's a place where you are safe, where you will worship openly/fully, where you will grow, where you will be inspired, and where you will heal.

Of course this questions opens a can of worms. But please focus on the question.

The post-assembly experience is incredibly valuable in regards to this: I don't think any of else are content to expect anything less than the best of what God has to offer us. The very fact we're pursuing Christ after our experiences illustrates the core value of our hearts a SINCERE desire to be God's children.

Despite the negative experiences, which some Christians will never experience, we still want the BEST of what God offers. There is this Jacob clinging mentality in us all: I will not let you go Lord until you bless me. I was not deterred from following after you inspite of what I went through. I love you Lord, and i want to cling to you and get all you have to offer me!

[moonflower2]

I don't think God can dwell with a group unless he is first dwelling with each individual. Is the preacher a holy man?

Does he have a secret life or is he accountable to EVERYONE? Does he care about his congregation and take care of their needs? Is there plurality in all the decisions that are made? Does he have a real burden for the people immediately surrounding him? Does he expect the same behavior of those in leadership with him? Is he really serving the people in his congregation?
The preacher I hear on Sundays talked about how "they!" had to ask a couple of deacons to leave because of adultery. What does the town say about him?
There will never be perfect people or a perfect group, but I've noticed a lot of things about this preacher and those SERVING with him that are totally different from g.g. They are noticably HUMBLE. There is true "PLURALITY" of leadership that is not closed to others and their opinions.
Do they run down other Christians? No! They do what they can to help.
I know this may be over simplified, but it speaks to me. By their fruits....

[al Hartman]

     We don't begin to know all the attributes of the Godhead, but this much we know for certain about the Holy Spirit's mission among us:  He is come to glorify Jesus Christ, and He will lead us into all truth.

     If I attend a gathering where there is a powerful preaching presence, and a lot of "Amen"-ing and "Praise the Lord"-ing going on, and my first impression is "The Holy Spirit is in this place,"  I can know immediately that the Holy Spirit is not at work, because He didn't come to glorify Himself, but Christ!
     Leading us into all Truth, the HolySpirit will be exalting Christ, teaching Christ.

     The church I have attended since this year began is a living body of the Lord's people, in which I have yet to hear an emphatic "Amen."  Amens are uttered in whispers if at all.  But there is clear evidence of the Holy Spirit's work in that the ministry and Bible teaching center on Christ, and the fellowship after services is around the Person of our Redeemer.  
     Quite telling is that when I converse with one or more others about the Lord, the youth of middle school & elementary school ages stand near and listen to our discussions.  When some of the young ones have visited other churches with friends or family, they return with questions of why the fellowsip there is not around Christ as it is here.  This is the working of the Holy Spirit...

     Bottom line:  If you want to see the Holy Spirit at work, don't look for Him.  Where you see Jesus Christ uplifted, exalted, glorified:  There the Holy Spirit is working!

al

[jesusfreak]

    Bottom line:  If you want to see the Holy Spirit at work, don't look for Him.  Where you see Jesus Christ uplifted, exalted, glorified:  There the Holy Spirit is working!

al

Humm, this is quite an interesting statement.  I agree with it emphatically at face value, but surely the Holy Spirit can be evidenced with elements besides the blatant honoring of Christ that you define here...

Also, I personally find my views regarding the presence of the Holy Spirit moving away from a corporate sense shown here and into a form of the individualistic standard pointed out by Moonflower.  God is a light in each Man's life, wouldn't viewing this as "each light supplying to the whole" lead to a more complete exposition regarding the Holy Spirit's interaction with the Church?  Of course there is a powerful dynamic formed within a church when many Ones who have a cultivated interaction with the Holy Spirit come together, but this still must be broken down to the individual relationship before compiling to the synergy.  

So extending this into the corporate setting will rely upon the individual's sense of the Holy Spirit.  Basically, by its definition, you will notice its lack when it is unable to be found.

--
lucas

[brian]

i am no expert or authority on this subject, and i distrust my own take on this subject only slightly less than anyone else's on this board, given our background. i think that at face-value this topic has the potential to be dangerous for us, because it so clearly opens the door to unhealthy "we have It" fanaticism. i fear that what may drive this desire to find The Place With the Holy Spirit is the remains of that spiritual pride that gets so excited about being God's Special People. The Chosen Ones. that feeling saturated the assemblies to such an alarmingly unhealthy degree that i find myself still very sensitive to it in any form. it raises these alarms and red flags in me - does it do this for anyone else? we were so deeply convinced that the assembly had so much more of the holy spirit than the vast majority of other churches, when by all biblical indications it had far less if any at all - given the rampant known sin/corruption/compromise that was festering. i just don't think this is a helpful way for most of us to be approaching new churches. i think a great characteristic of any church we may go to would be a marked lack of fanaticism, a calm healing atmosphere, which i am sure many would say is a more believable evidence of the spirit than any other. are souls free to gently heal in that place?

in the assembly we took a bunch of verse that talked about the spirit and made a scorecard out of them. then we forcibly set up everything we had on our list, checking them off as we went. then we excitedly announced to each other that we had the leading of the spirit - WHEN WE DIDN'T. so i would say be very careful about doing the same sort of thing in another form here.

that being said, i think that if the presence of the spirit were to be seen in a gathering, it would be because the individuals brought it there, each of them, quietly and without fanfare or goal-oriented planning, combined with a LACK of overpowering human leadership. i think the leaders have the greatest potential for darkening any light that might be in a place, but they (arguably) have no greater potential for adding to the light than any other member.

brian