QUESTION OF THE DAY/OPINIONS WELCOME

[Mark C.]

Hi Lenore!

   Your question was, "How do we acquire that passion for the streams of living water?"

   Since I believe that the John 7 passage that we are discussing is talking about salvation and what happens at the new birth, I don't think that I would have asked this question of Christians that I was addressing.  We don't need passion to receive Christ as our Savior, only faith in The Good News as declared in these verses.  So my answer is you don't need to acquire a passion for the streams of living water that are described there.

  I understand that your pastor means well, and if his intention was to exhort his people to a committed pursuit of Christ there are many passages in the New Test. that would have provided a text for his sermon.  He also could have been just using the phrase, "streams of living water", as a general principle re. gaining refreshment in our lives with God, and that we acquire this by reading the Bible, etc.  Nothing wrong with that, but not a message that I would have brought because I don't see such messages as being what the church really needs to hear today (certainly not the only message, as some churches I've been to.)

  There needs to be a balance in the proclamation of the Bible that helps the believer to understand what our responsibilities are as Christians, what God's part is, and how this relationship with God works.  Not an easy task, but preaching that continually harps on the believers part places burdens on us that we can't fulfill.  

  When I first left the Assembly I attended a church where a very fine dedicated pastor preached a series on, "commitment: the key to intimacy."  He was going through Ephesians and I had an opportunity to talk with him in private and ask him about the messages, and also share with him some of my Assembly past.

   I asked him, "what he meant by intimacy with Christ," and he paused for a moment, and looking a bit perplexed; he finally answered, "I'm not sure how to describe it."  I think he took for granted certain Christian words and phrases and had never thought about how these things actually were defined.  He also looked very puzzled when I tried to explain what the Assembly was like, and why I had a strong reaction to the word, "commitment".  He was a good man, and tried to understand, but I'm afraid I was a different kind of Christian then what he was used to.  


  This pastor's main focus was getting lazy Christians moving!  He felt it was his duty to challenge, stir-up, provoke, inspire, etc.  The great need of the hour that many pastors see is getting Christians into "a deep and meaningful commitment to a walk with God."  Nothing wrong with that; but I think I was the first one to confront him with the idea that there is such a thing as being "totally committed to a walk with God": as in fervent prayer, hours in worship meetings, morning times, seminars, constant Bible study, and evangelism, but still being way off from what God is after in our lives.

  He would have loved it if his people lived lives just like we did in the Assembly; but when I told him about the false teaching and the cult like organization he recognized the group was way off!  Hmmm?  Is commitment the key to intimacy with Christ?  Is all this zeal he wished to see in his church really what God was after?  I hope that I made him think.

  For exassemblyites I believe that the most important issue is not a need to "acquire passion" but to understand how passionate God is about us as His children.  In I JN. we are told that, "we love God because He first loved us.  He finds the burned out and frazzled and promises to fan the smoking flax into a flame of passion again.

  There is a balance, and I'm not saying God doesn't want us to have commitments in our lives, but these are a result of resting in His love, not a means to acquire His blessings.

  This is where we, as exassemblyites, can be a real blessing to the pastors we may encounter in our churches.  We need to support them with our prayers, by spending some time with them, and also sharing our perspective.  Our stories can provide some much needed insight to others, and indeed in this sense we are sent from God to them.

  I will be sharing more of my opinions on what it means to live the Christian life on the Wounded Pilgrims thread in the weeks to come and encourage any and all to chime in with thoughts of your own.  Dialogue is much more instructive than monologue, because it stimulates our thinking.

                                        God Bless,  Mark C.

[al Hartman]

Lenore,

     I'm glad you asked the question you did here, for us to share in, and I think Mark's answer illustrates that, if you really want to know what your pastor meant in his message, you will have to ask him very specific questions.  As Mark has shown, he may or may not have the answers you need.
     But bring his answers back here & we can look at them further...

     Mark's post is very thorough & well worth holding onto for a reference.  I wish to emphasize a single point from it:

From Mark Campbell:
 
   ...a very fine dedicated pastor preached a series on, "commitment: the key to intimacy."  He was going through Ephesians...
   ...I asked him, "what he meant by intimacy with Christ," and he paused for a moment, and looking a bit perplexed; he finally answered, "I'm not sure how to describe it."  I think he took for granted certain Christian words and phrases and had never thought about how these things actually were defined.  He also looked very puzzled when I tried to explain... why I had a strong reaction to the word, "commitment"
 

     If we want to know what a speaker meant by the use of a certain word, phrase or argument, we need to ask.  Our asking needs to be thought out, as to exactly what we hope to learn, and our questions need to be framed carefully, to be specific and clear, so as to get us the answers we need and seek.

     Similarly, when a certain word or phrase, such as commitment, intimacy with Christ, streams of living water, deep and meaningful, walk with God, passion, raises an emotional flag within us, we need to formulate very specific questions to ask of God.  We have been mentally programmed to think certain thoughts in response to certain words and phrases-- some right and good, and others not so.

     At 61 years of age, I am still learning the origins and true meanings of terminology I have heard since infancy & used since I could speak.  It is to me a joy to learn at long last what something means which I can remember my parents' using when I was a tyke, but I am also sometimes abashed to find that I have been misquoting or misusing some portion of language for years through sheer ignorance.

     God understands how all these things have come to pass; how one of us can be encouraged, one humbled, another dismayed, and someone else angered or frightened by the hearing of the self-same piece of speech.  But we need to understand that our emotional reaction to what we hear is certainly not the only, and possibly not the correct or complete response.

     Therefore, we must never fear to bring these things before Him, asking to receive whatever clarification, correction, even reprimand He will give us.  It is excellent that we have each other off whom to "bounce" these things, but ultimately each of us answers to God alone, so even the answers we gain from one another must be submitted to our Lord for final approval.

     The method by which the Lord assures each of us is something He tailors to fit our capacity for acceptance.  How I "hear" and learn from God may bear little or no similarity to your experience with Him.  Churches split and denominations have been formed over such disputes, but the only real specifics are that we learn to know Christ within the confines of what is taught in His Word.  This does not require that we understand the Bible as thoroughly as our neighbor, nor does it excuse us from seeking to do so.  But I begin to drift far afield of my subject...

     "Come unto Me..."  

                                  Oh, what peace we often forfeit,
                    Oh, what needless pain we bear,
                                   All because we do not carry
                     Everything to God in prayer.

al

[lenore]

 :

Thanks for sharing Mark and Al:

I think I better run over to the church and look over my Sunday Service Notes .

It was a good discussion, I appreciate it.


-----------------------------------------------------

In Chapter 5 of the Purpose Driven Life by Rick Warren:

LIFE ON EARTH IS A TEST:

This life metaphor is seen in stories throughout the Bible.
God continually tests people's character, faith, obedience, love , integrity, and loyalty. Words like trial, temptation, refining and testing occur more than 200 times in the Bible.
Character is both developed and revealed by tests, and all of life is a test. You are always being tested.
God constantly watches your response to people, problems, success, conflict, illness, disappointments and even the weather. He even watches simple actions, like when you open a door for others, when you pick up a piece of trash, or when you're polite toward a cler or waitress.

A very important test is how you act when you can't feel God's presence in your life.


------------------------------------------------------------------

MY QUESTION OF THE DAY FOR DISCUSSION IS???

1. WHY IS TESTING SO IMPORTANT?

2. DO YOU THINK TESTING IS IMPORTANT?

This is open for discussion!!!!!!!!!!!


CHECK ON THIS LATER.

LENORE

[al Hartman]

From Lenore:

MY QUESTION OF THE DAY FOR DISCUSSION IS???

1. WHY IS TESTING SO IMPORTANT?

2. DO YOU THINK TESTING IS IMPORTANT?

     First, we must understand that God does not test our abilities to see what we are capable of.  He already knows:  We are NOT capable!  "Apart from Me you can do nothing."

     God tests us to remind us that we are helpless and hopeless apart from Him.  The goal of His tests is that, in recognizing our utter neediness, we will turn to Him, call out to Him, and receive of Him the provision to meet our needs.

     God's testings are not opportunities for us to show off how "saintly" we have become, how wise in spiritual ways, how Christlike in following Him...  Rather, they are to showcase the greatness of His redemption of us; His love, compassion, mercy, patience, and goodness toward us demonstrated in His willingness and ability to do for us what we must have done, but cannot do for ourselves.

     Hallelujah!  What a Savior!

[lenore]

 :
JULY 9TH 12:10 AM:

PURPOSE DRIVEN LIFE BOOK BY Rick Warren:

Chapter 6:
LIFE IS A TEMPORARY ASSIGNMENT:

Verse: Psalm 39:4:
LORD, remind me how brief my time on earth will be.
Remind me tht my days are numbered, and that my life is fleeing away.


''''To make the best use of your life, you must never forget two truths.:
First: compare with eternity, life is extremely brief.
Second: earth is only a temporary residence.

As God to help you see life on earth as he see it.

""we are to be God's ambassadors""

Imagine if you were asked by your country to be an ambassador to an enemy nation. You would probably have to learn a new language and adapt to some customs and cultural differences in order to be polite and to accomplish your mission.  As an ambassador you would not be able to isolate yourself from the enemy . To fulfill your mission, you would have to have contact and relate to them.
But suppose you become so comfortable with this foreign country that you fell in love with it, preferring it to your homeland. Your loyalty and committment would change. Your role as an ambassador would be compromised. Instead of representing your home country, you would start acting like the enemy. You'd be a traitor.

Sadly , many Christians have betrayed their King and his kingdom. They have foolishly concluded that because they live on earth, it's their home. It is not."""


The QUESTION at the end of this chapter :

How should the fact that life on earth is just a temporary assignment change the way I am living right now?

[lenore]

  : July 14: 12:20 am:

I have a question maybe someone can answer it, if not, at least a discussion can be pursued.

How can someone claim to be a Christian, then say that they are not a Christian any longer?

I can understand walk you own way for awhile, but not rejection Christianity, just be a prodigal for a while., taking time to evaluate , learn, grow and heal.

But some saying one year I AM A CHRISTIAN, and the next SAYING I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN ANYMORE.

This doesnt make any sense.
Unless they were just a Christian in name only, like a particular religion that you were raised in.

How can a true follower of Christ , thoroughly reject, the existence of Christ?

[al Hartman]

: July 14: 12:20 am:

I have a question maybe someone can answer it, if not, at least a discussion can be pursued.

How can someone claim to be a Christian, then say that they are not a Christian any longer?

I can understand walk you own way for awhile, but not rejection Christianity, just be a prodigal for a while., taking time to evaluate , learn, grow and heal.

But some saying one year I AM A CHRISTIAN, and the next SAYING I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN ANYMORE.

This doesnt make any sense.
Unless they were just a Christian in name only, like a particular religion that you were raised in.

How can a true follower of Christ , thoroughly reject, the existence of Christ?

Lenore,

     This topic has been addressed recently on the "Let's take the gloves off" thread (any and all topics).  In part, the discussion includes:

  ...there are no ex-christians.  To be a Christian, one must have been accepted into God's immediate personal family.  To be an ex-christian, one would have to be booted out of God's family.  God just simply doesn't do that.  You can be a former-professing-christian (an ex-pretender, as it were), but that's as close as you can get.

    Where the confusion comes in, I believe, is that people think that what they do makes them Christians, i.e. "accepting" Christ.  Nothing could be less true nor more foolish.  The element of sin has established a chasm between man and God that we are utterly unable to bridge.  It could only be, and has been, spanned from His side to ours.  By sending His Son into the world to bear the judgment and penalty of our sin, God has extended to us a grace which enables us to acknowledge His love for us-- an act of which we were otherwise incapable.

    The point is that it is not our acceptance of, or actions toward, God that makes us Christians, but His acceptance of, and actions toward, us.  No mere mortal can undo what God has done.  If you are not a Christian today... then you simply never were, whatever you may have thought.  On the other hand, if Christ has received you into His fold-- if God in heaven has made you His son-- you can balk and struggle to your own exhaustion and it will not matter: you are His forever.  Flee to the mountains; hide yourself in the depths of the sea: He is there and you will not escape Him nor the goodness He will bestow upon you.

     Check it out at:  http://www.assemblyboard.com/index.php?board=6;action=display;threadid=724;start=0

God bless,
al

[outdeep]

Most Christians I have heard over the years will explain our security in one of the following ways:

1.  Security of the believer - they teach that once saved, always saved.  These folks believe that being born again is a result of our receiving Christ.  They emphasize that once we receive Christ, God is faithful and will never let us go.

2.  Perseverance of the Saints - they teach that if one is saved, one will persevere until the end.  These folks believe that being born again is a sovereign act of God that preceeds our receiving Christ.  They emphasize that if God has saved us, there is no way that we can wander off.

3.  No security – A few denominations believe that one may be a saved Christian by receiving Christ and then later decide to turn away and no longer be saved.  This is rather rare and is rather difficult to support without skipping many passages in the New Testament.

The reality is that some folks do flip out and deny Christ after years of identifying themselves as a Christian.  This is generally explained in one of the following ways:

a)  When they said they were Christians, it was a mere profession.  There was not true faith (or, put another way, God never really saved them).  Everyone I knew in #2 above argued this.

b)  They may be still saved, but walking as a carnal Christian.  If they make their way back, then they were truly saved.  If not, they were mere professors.

c)  A few in #1 camp believe that if they made a public profession of faith and received Christ, they are still (and always will be) saved in spite of the behavior.

d)  A few believe #3 above.

[delila]

Al,
I have come to a conclusion about you: no matter what question one asks, you will always have the same answer.  Does that mean that the needle of your record player is stuck, that you play the same tape all the time in your blaster, that you do not think for yourself?  Just a thought.
d

     Aw, d, I really hope that is only an opinion & not really a conclusion.  A conclusion would mean that you have stopped thinking, & I'd hate to see that happen!

     I think before I answer every time, and I pray too.  The thing is, Christ is the answer-- only the questions keep changing.  What is it about Him that you object to?  I understand your objecting to "religiosity," legalism, performance by rote or rule, etc., but I don't offer those things as answers...  The fact that you're encountering some difficulty in connecting with Him doesn't reflect badly on His end-- He has come all the way down from heaven to meet with you, accepted you as you are, lived for you and died for you.  What more could you ask?


     Every once in awhile we get news that there has been a broken water main or a sewer backup that has contaminated the municipal water supply.  People don't stop drinking water.  They only stop drinking that water!  Other water is still good.
     Somebody polluted our church.  That doesn't make God a criminal.  We abandon the contamination, not the element that bore it.  Not all Christians are evil.  Not all believers are wrong.  And none of us has suffered as Christ suffered for us!


     Find fault with me if you will-- that isn't hard to do.  But if you have a complaint about my answer, which is our Lord Jesus Christ, I am constrained to ask you to specifically name it:  Of what do you accuse Him?


     BTW, I don't have a blaster.  I use a Bible instead, and no matter which of its "stations" I tune in to, the music may vary, but the theme is the same:  Jesus Christ.

God bless,
al

Al, when George peed in the water he made us swallow telling us it was God's will/well, he started a domino kind of motion.  You'd question everything he said, wouldn't you?  He claimed to stand on the rock and called everything else quicksand.  I say, let's question the book he called the rock 'cause somethin' smells fishy ta me
d

[Recovering Saint]

Delila

When I got saved I knew my life was a mess and needed something different. I had a religious upbringing so I believed that there was a God and had heard of but not seen His goodness demonstrated by those who claimed to know Him.

When I received Christ it was He who revealed Himself to me and showed me that He was for me. Unfortunately the people who told me about Him I thought knew Him well and I believed their interpretation of Him from the Bible. They said if it is not in the Bible don't believe it and we can show you anything we do here is from the Bible. Well I wanted to know how to be smart like them and I learned how to PROPERLY interpret the Bible like they did. I became a smarty pants like they were who always knew what the other persons problem was and could solve it by a quick verse or two or a heavy exhortation. I am sad that I did not become more like Christ but more like a Pharisee like they were.

Now I know only this for sure. Jesus loves me this I know for the bible tells me so. I also experience pain and joy and laughter and sorrow and hope and despair and still I know that Jesus loves me. I don't ever want to brow beat anyone again like I was brow beaten and unfortunately did so in the past. The one who knows it all in the Assembly is probably the farthest from God and needs to repent the most.

Delila for what it is worth. My prayers go out to you and others here who have suffered like Christ at the hands of your friends. It is terrible that GG and those still in have not got the courage to admit they were wrong. Humility is something that glorified Christ and when his people exhibit that kind of life they truly are putting on Christ. To stand on  the bible and dictate to others is not Christlike but arrogance in the supreme. I believe the Bible is true because Jesus demonstrates its truths through others in practical ways. The Assembly talked a great talk but did not walk the walk. It was all rules to subject people under their authority and it was not Christ's headship. The Lord's holy name is blasphemed among the heathens because of hypocrisy such as was practiced in the Assembly and you my friend are a victim of its stern and uncaring teachers.

God will show you. Don't worry if you are looking for Him He already is willing. The hurt and pain of hearing GG's booming voice often keeps me from spending a long time in the Word. I hear his twisted take and I am SICK TO DEATH by it.

It is not God's fault such bad examples exist in His Church. He says let the wheat and the tares grow together and remove the tares at the end. They think they are doing God's will but look at the fruit. Wasted, ruined and corrupted lives that is not Christ.


Hugh

[al Hartman]

Al, when George peed in the water he made us swallow telling us it was God's will/well, he started a domino kind of motion.  You'd question everything he said, wouldn't you?  He claimed to stand on the rock and called everything else quicksand.  I say, let's question the book he called the rock 'cause somethin' smells fishy ta me
d

d,

   I really can't argue with any of that...  Remember I've been out since 1980, but only out-from-under for a couple of years.  So I've had my time to question things & to figure things out.  Of course, I didn't have a community like this BB to help me-- Cathy & I felt pretty much on our own.

   My point is that I, too, questioned everything that related in any way to the assembly.  My questioning took a different route because when I left I still thought that the assembly was "right" & it was I who was wrong, but the truth of that situation eventually shined through.  I didn't suffer the overwhelming bitterness that many of the more recent emigres have felt, because my experience has been more gradual, less sudden than theirs, but that hasn't made it easier or "better."

   I have had to analyze the "fishy smell" you speak of, & I have found it to be emanating not from the Book, but from the false preacher; not from the Message but from the unfaithful messenger; not from the Good Shepherd, but from the wicked hireling.  The bathwater had to go; the Baby stays.  It was only by questioning everything that I was able to make such determination.  Sometimes I questioned God.  Sometimes I ignored Him completely.  Thank God He didn't ignore me, but helped me to answer the questions & arrive at sound decisions-- practical ends that work.

   It is very difficult to be openminded when you realize that your openmindedness was what enabled your deception in the first place.  I tried very hard to figure it out.  I realize now that I never would have/could have succeeded on my own.  It was only His faithfulness to Himself, to His promises, that got me beyond my own unfaithfulness.  By grace are we saved...

al

[Joe Sperling]

I agree with Al on this for sure. An analogy(a poor one I know) is if you went to a Ford Dealership(or any dealership for that matter) and a salesman tricked you into buying a car he knew was a lemon. You would be prone to say "All Ford's are lemons and the Ford Motor company cannot be trusted".  But the truth is that the salesman cannot be trusted, not the Ford Motor Company.

The problem with the Assembly, and the experiences we all had there were not with the Bible, but with George and the leadership underneath him. The problem was with HIS interpretation of the Bible, not with the Bible itself. Because we were dealt a "sour" deal doesn't make the Bible or Christianity a lemon.

--Joe

[delila]

I agree with Al on this for sure. An analogy(a poor one I know) is if you went to a Ford Dealership(or any dealership for that matter) and a salesman tricked you into buying a car he knew was a lemon. You would be prone to say "All Ford's are lemons and the Ford Motor company cannot be trusted".  But the truth is that the salesman cannot be trusted, not the Ford Motor Company.

The problem with the Assembly, and the experiences we all had there were not with the Bible, but with George and the leadership underneath him. The problem was with HIS interpretation of the Bible, not with the Bible itself. Because we were dealt a "sour" deal doesn't make the Bible or Christianity a lemon.

--Joe

Joe:
lemons are good.
lemons smell good.  If your kitchen doesn't, cut into a lemon and press half all over the counter and let it sit a while, soak in, smell up the place.  I like lemons.  My son likes to eat them too, straight up, no sugar or salt, just sucks on it smiling.

Yes, I think fondly of lemons.  If life gives you them, well, you've got her made in the shade don't cha?

Perhaps to compare George's teaching with the lemon is not meet.  Perhaps we'd do better with kitchen garbage.  Sometimes I've pictured him pelted with it.  Not often though, so one couldn't call me totally bitter.  But we should talk further about this kitchen trash/George comparison since I think that yes, since we ate what he fed and he claimed to be feeding from the well, well, well, it might just be that well was/is contaminated with sewage water.  It does not follow for certain that it is, but it may be.  And I for one, am checkin' it out further and finding/believing the water is so putrid you can't even water a lemon tree with it.
d

[shinchy]

   It is very difficult to be openminded when you realize that your openmindedness was what enabled your deception in the first place.  I tried very hard to figure it out.  I realize now that I never would have/could have succeeded on my own.  It was only His faithfulness to Himself, to His promises, that got me beyond my own unfaithfulness.  By grace are we saved...

al

Hi Al,
That's an interesting point about open-mindedness. It never occured to me but looking back, I was very open-minded to what "the saints" said about the Bible Studies back them. One of my friends back then, who was the English pastor at the Japanese church I went to at the time, didn't trust what the Assembly was about and he was spooked about that the group also had no name. I also assimilated some of their anti-church (institutional) attitude very quickly and that concerned him as well. We had an argument and I soon mellowed out on that attitude even though I didn't leave the fellowship right away. All I remembered thinking at the time was, "Friend, please be open-minded about this."

I do think other factors, such as being a non-conformist or simply being against "organized" religion," were other factors involved. Ironically, once non-conformists were in, they soon succumbed to the cookie cutter.

[al Hartman]

I do think other factors, such as being a non-conformist or simply being against "organized" religion," were other factors involved. Ironically, once non-conformists were in, they soon succumbed to the cookie cutter.

Shin,  In retrospect, that period of my life in which I prided myself in being nonconformist was largely spent conforming to one style or another of nonconformity.  When I got to the assembly phase of my life, I think I was already "cookie-cut" & half-baked.  GG just had to finish me & add some icing...

al