SHARING BIBLE VERSES

[Christine]

Thanks Joe for sharing these verses, they are really a blessing.

[Joe Sperling]

But the path of the just [is] as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day. (Proverbs 4:18)

I still have an old Torch and Testimony with this verse on the back, and a beautiful drawing of
two travelers on a winding path through a forest.  Rand Bates drew it. I have it framed. It really
is a beautiful verse of Scripture.

[Joe Sperling]

Thou shalt also consider in thine heart, that, as a man chasteneth his son, so the LORD thy God chasteneth thee. (Deut. 8:5)

In Hebrews 12 it says that God chastens us for our own profit---that we might learn to be
more godly people. Chastening may be for correction if we have strayed off the path, or it
could be there to increase our desire for the Lord himself.  A period of great dryness, where
we "feel" God has deserted us may actually be there so we WILL cry out all the more to the
Lord because we miss him so!!  He does ALL of these things because He loves his sons and his
daughters so very much!  It's never fun, and as the Bible says it can be "grievous"---but God
wants the best for us---and later, when we look back, we are always grateful to him for what
he has done for us! We need to remember that the Father "knows what we have need of before
we even ask him" and sometimes answers our prayers a lot differently than we would desire!   

[outdeep]

Thou shalt also consider in thine heart, that, as a man chasteneth his son, so the LORD thy God chasteneth thee. (Deut. 8:5)

In Hebrews 12 it says that God chastens us for our own profit---that we might learn to be
more godly people. Chastening may be for correction if we have strayed off the path, or it
could be there to increase our desire for the Lord himself.  A period of great dryness, where
we "feel" God has deserted us may actually be there so we WILL cry out all the more to the
Lord because we miss him so!!  He does ALL of these things because He loves his sons and his
daughters so very much!  It's never fun, and as the Bible says it can be "grievous"---but God
wants the best for us---and later, when we look back, we are always grateful to him for what
he has done for us! We need to remember that the Father "knows what we have need of before
we even ask him" and sometimes answers our prayers a lot differently than we would desire!   

I'm not sure why but the emphasis on God's discipline in this verse conjured up an image of 47 year old single sisters still in "training apartments".  Sort of "God will be whacking your butt for the rest of your life, but cheer up, it is for your good".   

[Joe Sperling]

Dave---

I think you are seeing chastening in the wrong way. Much of Hebrews 12 mentions it. A father's
"chastening" can be a simple look at his son/daughter----a look of "you know better than that"--it isn't brutal, or a "whacking"--it is designed to put you back on the right track. God (without us physically
seeing it of course) can do the same thing. He can withdraw his presence and joy for a time so that we yearn after what we had before.

Perhaps that's not what you meant though----you said it "conjures up images"--so perhaps you are referring to past Assembly experience. Hope no one is thinking God wants to "whack our butts" continually for "our own good".   

[outdeep]

Dave---

I think you are seeing chastening in the wrong way. Much of Hebrews 12 mentions it. A father's
"chastening" can be a simple look at his son/daughter----a look of "you know better than that"--it isn't brutal, or a "whacking"--it is designed to put you back on the right track. God (without us physically
seeing it of course) can do the same thing. He can withdraw his presence and joy for a time so that we yearn after what we had before.

Perhaps that's not what you meant though----you said it "conjures up images"--so perhaps you are referring to past Assembly experience. Hope no one is thinking God wants to "whack our butts" continually for "our own good".   

I am certainly not describing how I would interpret this verse today.  I'm describing the immediate flash-back feeling I get when verse like this come up.  Voices from the past still speak in my head and I'm still finding the need to tell them to take a hike.

[Joe Sperling]

I am certainly not describing how I would interpret this verse today.  I'm describing the immediate flash-back feeling I get when verse like this come up.  Voices from the past still speak in my head and I'm still finding the need to tell them to take a hike.

I fully understand that flash-back feeling! 

[Joe Sperling]

I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. (Galatians 2:20)

We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. (Romans 6:4)

Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things.  For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.  When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory. (Colossians 3:1-4)

And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. (Ephesians 2:6,7)

Note these (4) verses are all in the past tense---things that HAVE BEEN accomplished already in God's eyes.

Pretty amazing to remember these things---the Bible says these things are a fact right now --
as Christians we are crucified, buried, risen and seated with Jesus Christ.  When He said "IT IS FINISHED" he truly meant it----everything has become ours through Jesus Christ--it truly is an amazing thought.  Kind of makes you want to jump up and down on a couch and shout out loud for joy!! 

[Joe Sperling]

The sacrifice of the wicked [is] an abomination to the LORD:
 but the prayer of the upright [is] his delight. (Prov. 15-8)

Main Entry: 1de·light 
Pronunciation: \di-ˈlīt, dē-\
Function: noun
Date: 13th century
1: a high degree of gratification : joy; also : extreme satisfaction
2: something that gives great pleasure <her performance was a delight>
3archaic : the power of affording pleasure (Merriam Websters Dictionary)

We all know what it is to "delight" in something. Proverbs says that the Lord "delights"
in our prayers.  They bring him great joy, great pleasure and extreme satisfaction. Not that
God "needs" ANYTHING.  But he delights in his people, and He delights in our prayers--and he
tells us so in his own Word.  He wants us to know that he does.

If we keep this in mind when we approach the Lord, prayers will become far from being a "duty"---
the Lord "delights" in our coming to Him in prayer.

"The eyes of the Lord are in every place, beholding the evil and the good". (Prov. 15:3)

[Joe Sperling]

I was reading in Proverbs 21 this morning and noticed a couple of verses that seemed kind of out of place (read the chapter and you will see that the two verses come out of nowhere in the flow of thought in both instances). Then a scenario came to mind as to how these two verses wound up in the chapter:

Solomon sits penning sayings which will one day become Proverbs 21 (for we all know that the chapters and verses were added later by translators). He has just finished what will one day be verse 8, when a piercing voice breaks the silence:

"SOLOMON!!!  WHAT ARE YOU DOING!!?? Writing, writing, writing, you're always writing!!  Don't you have anything better to do!!?? All I do is clean, clean, clean!!  What have you done for me lately!!??  SOLOMON!!! ANSWER ME!!  SOLOMON!!?? When we first got married it wasn't like this, it.... (the voice continues on in a monotonous nagging tone).

Solomon pauses, then writes the following down (it really has nothing to do with his previous thought, but he is compelled to pen it):

"It is better to dwell in a corner of the housetop, than with a brawling woman in a wide house". (Proverbs 21:9).

Solomon continues to pen, and gets back to his original flow of thought.  He finishes what will one day be verse 18, and then again a shrill voice pierces his meditative pondering:

"SOLOMON!!!  DO YOU HEAR ME??!!?  I can't put up with much more of this!! You may be a king, but you still have to take out the trash!!  Other king's wives don't have to put up with what I put up with!! Get up off your lazy butt and do something!!!  Are you going to spend the rest of the day writing??!!?? You are one lazy man I'll tell you!! I always dreamed of marital bliss, but I settled for this!! When I think back when I was single I..."(voice continues in a whiny tirade).

Solomon is again compelled to pen the next "saying", which has nothing (once again) to do with the previous flow of thought:

"It is better to dwell in the wilderness, than with a contentious and an angry woman". (Proverbs 21:19)

He then goes on with his previous flow of thought, and finishes what will eventually become the 21st chapter of Proverbs. Solomon leaves his two wayward verses in place though, as perhaps he thinks there is more wisdom in the words than he had previously thought.    Now, of course, it may not have happened exactly like this, but that is my "take" on how and why those verses got there.   

[Joe Sperling]

I was reading in Luke last night and came upon these verses:

Be on your guard!  If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. 
And if he wrongs you seven times in one day and returns to you seven times saying, 'I am sorry,' you should forgive him." (Luke 17:3,4)

As I read this I thought of those who say it is a bitter thing not to just forgive someone whether they
repent or not. Then I saw that Jesus is stating if a brother sins.  But why not forgive a brother
for his sins whether he repents or not?  I think maybe it is because if we forgive without rebuke, or forgive without waiting for an "I'm sorry" from our brother, we are actually hurting him rather than helping him! We are allowing him/her to commit great wrong without confrontation and expected remorse and repentance. We are allowing them to stray from the Lord, and really by just "letting it go" we are not showing love at all! Note again above, Jesus says "if he repents forgive him"(note the "if").  Perhaps there is a form of forgiveness for the ignorant "forgive them they know not what they do", but a different form of forgiveness for a brother who really should know better. Of course, I do not mean we should go about with hatred in our hearts towards the one who offended us---but I think, as Jesus said above, that we should wait for repentance before completely forgiving and forgetting sins committed against us by a brother or sister.  The rebuke and expected repentance will heal their soul, rather than allowing them to go on in their sinful way.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?  I found it very intriguing in light of those who say we should just forgive another Christian who wronged others, without looking for repentance from that individual first.

[Mark C.]

I was reading in Luke last night and came upon these verses:

Be on your guard!  If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. 
And if he wrongs you seven times in one day and returns to you seven times saying, 'I am sorry,' you should forgive him." (Luke 17:3,4)

As I read this I thought of those who say it is a bitter thing not to just forgive someone whether they
repent or not. Then I saw that Jesus is stating if a brother sins.  But why not forgive a brother
for his sins whether he repents or not?  I think maybe it is because if we forgive without rebuke, or forgive without waiting for an "I'm sorry" from our brother, we are actually hurting him rather than helping him! We are allowing him/her to commit great wrong without confrontation and expected remorse and repentance. We are allowing them to stray from the Lord, and really by just "letting it go" we are not showing love at all! Note again above, Jesus says "if he repents forgive him"(note the "if").  Perhaps there is a form of forgiveness for the ignorant "forgive them they know not what they do", but a different form of forgiveness for a brother who really should know better. Of course, I do not mean we should go about with hatred in our hearts towards the one who offended us---but I think, as Jesus said above, that we should wait for repentance before completely forgiving and forgetting sins committed against us by a brother or sister.  The rebuke and expected repentance will heal their soul, rather than allowing them to go on in their sinful way.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?  I found it very intriguing in light of those who say we should just forgive another Christian who wronged others, without looking for repentance from that individual first.

Dear Joe,

  Yes, I have some thoughts on this (I imagine you are asking this in regard to how we should think of our relationship to former members who are in denial re. their own conduct while members of the Assm.).

   I have shared my thoughts on this in the past and not received much in the way of a response here.  I think that is because of several reasons:

1.) Some former members might not be able to separate their own emotional state with the biblical imperative to support moral integrity.

     In other words, people don't want to hold on to a bitterness over being wronged and opt to just let all past unrepentant sins against them be forgotten.  It is especially difficult for former members who were wounded as we will doubt ourselves when hit by those who refuse to honestly admit their involvement in the group.

2.) There seems to be a sizable group of former/present members who see the Assm. history in a much more positive light than I do.

    From this perspective there really are no "sins" to be repented of. Those with this view see the Assm. as a "good church", based on positive Christian ideals, with the only problem being a leader gone bad. Those claiming they were"sinned against" by members have received the following attributions:  "came into the group with their own psychological problems, are stuck in a bitter attitude, unable to move-on, and have adopted the status of a victim, etc."

  These characterizations are very effective at silencing most wounded former members because we have experienced many of these kinds of doubts re. how we felt when we left.  When we were in the group we were dominated by having the "tables turned" when we pointed out wrongs we noticed----- the whistler blower is the one with the problem vs. the authority figure/organization.

  One could say, "well, it's God's problem and not mine", and of course ultimately that is true.  However, as the verses you share above indicate we do have a responsibility to point out to those that sin against us that they have done so and need to repent. 

 Obviously there are degrees of sin and times when it is better to just drop the whole thing.  As an example, I was discussing how to interpret a passage with someone via email and the conversation quickly became deeply offensive to the other person.  He dishonestly claimed he was not reacting irrationally and started to personally attack my "hidden malicious motives" for bringing his interpretation into question.  Did he sin against me for stubbornly refusing to engage in rational discussion?  Maybe, but there are times when it just isn't worth winning a debate while losing a friend.

  If, instead of a minor issue, this former member had worked as one of the Assembly leaders and denied supporting GG abuses and resisted with the same above techniques it seems to me that a stand should be made.

                                                                                                     God Bless, Mark C.

[outdeep]

The progression of Matthew 18 is 1) rebuke individually 2) if that doesn't work rebuke with someone else  3) if that doesn't work bring before the church  4) if that doesn't work, let it go - let him be like any other unsaved person.

I think the problem that often arises in this conversation is it is often perceived as an either/or thing.  Either we spend the rest of our lives working on getting former Assembly leaders to repent or we do nothing at all.

For me, if I have issues with a brother who has wronged me, I make an honest attempt to get him to see it.  If he repents, great.  If he continually refuses to see it, there comes a point where I have to let it go. 

Perhaps using the word "forgiveness" is the stumbling block because it implies that one is condoning the wrong that was done.  I don't really see it that way. What I see is that there comes a point (and everyone has to determine this point for themselves) that I have to just let go of it and accept the fact that I can't control decisions other people make.  It is not healthy for me to keep replaying the Assembly scenario in my head.  It is time for me to get on with other things in life.

I don't view folks who are still hanging onto the hope that they can help former leaders to repent as bitter.  They may be, I suppose, but I don't really know.  Honestly, I had to deal with more resentment towards my parents for not preparing me to recognize a dysfunctional system such as the Assembly.  I also had to deal with resentment when I see what my son is doing in the Navy and realizing that at his age I was giving my all to what I thought at the time was the work of the Lord. 

But I think this is all part of my spiritual growth where I am accepting the things I cannot change, changing the things I can, and asking God for wisdom to know the difference.

[Joe Sperling]

Open rebuke is better than secret love.  Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful. (Proverbs 27:5,6)

I was reading this and thought of Jesus right before his crucifixion.  He openly rebuked Peter, saying
"Get thee behind me Satan", when Peter tried to say his suffering was unnecessary.  He then tells Peter
"Before the cock crows you will deny me three times", faithfully "wounding" him in the process by being so completely honest with Peter, knowing his heart.   And then lastly, Judas, who betrays Jesus, becoming an "enemy" betraying his master with a kiss.

But Jesus, true to his word that one should even love his enemies says to Judas:

Immediately he went over to Jesus and said, "Hail, Rabbi!" and he kissed him. 
Jesus answered him, "Friend, do what you have come for." (Matt. 26:49,50)

He calls Judas "friend" despite his treachery---but also fulfilling prophecy as it says "my own familiar friend..has lifted up his heal against me". 

[outdeep]

This morning I read the cheery passage about Elijah who, when taunted by some kids, cursed them so a bear massacred forty-two of the young children.

The commentary in my Bible says, "Not all ancient writers, to say nothing of modern, would have told a story like this to inculcate respect for a prophet.  Mt 19:13-15, Mk 10:13-16, Lk 18:15-17 provides a better guide to Biblical teaching on how to treat children."  Ya think?

Maybe its just me but I had to laugh out loud this morning thinking of this poor Bible-notes writer who went into work one morning and realized to himself, "Goodness!  What on earth am I supposed to write about this passage?!?"

Just another "precious promise", I guess.