The Purpose of Biblical Revelation

[outdeep]

Believe it or not, I still have a quiet time, though not as regimented as the old days.  Today, I came up to the following section which was written by Eugene Peterson in his introduction to First and Second Samuel in The Message:

For the biblical way is not so much to present us with a moral code and tell us "Live up to this"; nor is it to set out a system of doctrine and say, "Think like this and you will live well."  The biblical way is to tell a story and invite us, "Live into this.  This is what it looks like to be human; this is what is involved in entering and maturing as human beings."  We do violence to the biblical revelation when we "use" it for what we can get out of it or what we think will provide color and spice to our otherwise bland lives.  That results is a kind of "boutique spirituality" -- God as decoration, God as enhancement.  The Samuel narrative will not allow that.  In the reading, as we submit our lives to what we read, we find that we are not being led to see God in our stories but to see our stories in God's.  God is the larger context and plot in which our stories find themselves.

What do you think?

[Mark C.]

Hi Dave!

  A very interesting quote that you provided, but I'm not sure that I can respond as I am not clear exactly what the author's point is.  It would be a little easier if I knew what particular verse he is talking about and to apply it to his view of reading the Bible.

  I still recoil against the concept of "morning times" and refuse to "force" myself into any spiritual "discipline."  I force myself to get up and go to work, avoid sinful behavior, etc. but I like to just sit back and enjoy my reflection on God.  I can do this while looking at the beauty of nature, my grandkids, etc. and of course while considering the word of God.  If I start to feel like "I should spend time in the word" I immediately reject the guilty feeling, as I know this is not how God leads us.

  I study theology (doctrine) but do so out of a hunger to know and also a desire to understand who God really is.  A large part of this is because I know He loves me and wants to bless me, but from this I begin to see how God wants others to understand this as well.  If I can take some cups of water away and give them to those around me it brings me great joy when these bring refreshment.

  Great topic; let's talk about it!   God Bless,  Mark C.

[outdeep]

Good question.  Peterson is rather flowery with the language (which is what makes The Message striking when you read it), but occasionally you wonder what he is getting at.

The passage is part of the introduction to the books of 1 and 2 Samuel.  He said that the books revolve around four people - Hannah, Samuel, Saul, and David and it is a study in how these folks lived their lives within the context of God's overarching purposes.  To me, this makes sense when you think of Hannah who was driven to pray for a son because of the shame she was facing.  While God answered that prayer, God's purpose in Samuel was much larger than what Hannah had in view.

I hesitated to use the word "quiet time" because I know that conjures up past ideas that I don't intend.  Basically, what I mean is that I attempt to read the Bible on a somewhat consistant basis.  This can be while I am sitting out in my car (not driving), in the evening before I go to bed, or at a diner while eating breakfast.  I also try to pause every now and then for about five minutes to specifically pray for certain pressing needs.  I don't do this every day because sometimes I get busy with other things.

Like you, most of the time I do these things because I want to just like I am motivated to exercise in a gym because I want to feel better.  (The analogy fits because when I overexercised in the gym, I started missing more often).  But there are times when I may be in an expecially tedious portion of Scripture and I sit myself down to read otherwise I will be bogged down for a long period.

My rule for Bible reading and prayer is the same rule I have for exercise, sleep schedule, and diet - experiment and find something that works by accomplishing the goals that you want to achieve.  Avoid extremes unless there is a clear reason to do so.

[lenore]

 :)JUNE 4:10:56 PM EST:

QUIET TIME:

It is our closet time alone with God.
Where we can converse with God, in a moment of reflection, and allow God to converse with us.
It is a time away from the hustle and bustle of life, daily routines, trials and burdens that plague us. Just to say okay God , what do you want to teach me today. I am ready to listen.

Have you ever checked out how many times Jesus prayed and when he prayed.
If you look, he goes off by himself, it has been recorded, how many times that usual did this , when the crowds has gone home for the night. That he went off by himself, and usually spend quite a bit of time in
prayer between himself, and his heavenly Father.
In Luke , this occurred before he began teaching the Beatitudes, before he walk on the water, etc.
Jesus took the time he had available to him. made the time to spend in conversation with the Father.
Even before his arrest. It was after the Passover supper. It was what we would call the midnight shift.

Spending quiet times(our conversational time alone with God), what ever you want to call it.
Is when we are able to be there fully. Whether it is in the morning, or during the day, or at night, or after the midnight hour. Isnt better for each individual to find
a time that suits them , the time that allows them to have undivided attention to have a one on one conversation with God. We are to pray without ceasing, so the conversation is all day 24 hours aday.
That conversation is good, that way, we dont lose touch, but to have our personal one on one time with God . shouldnt it be a time when our fullest attention is given to what God is saying to us.

I am not a morning person, I perfer to do it when I am already for bed and have that time with God.
I could sit in my bed and read God's word for hours until I get what he is saying to me.
God is arranging another time.
Did you ever notice whoever Jesus took with him to his quiet place with God. That those disciples usually fell asleep.
Even when Jesus needed the support, they were asleep.
Jesus was alone with his God, and the ministering angels were there to care for his needs, during the most important prayer time of his earthly life.
To tell you the truth, at times I get more out of group prayers than my own. I dont know why, I have notice that my prayers are stronger, more focus, more intense in a group prayer , than in my alone time of prayer.

You are right Mark, reflecting on the creator through his creation, is a way to worship, praise, thanksgiving because we can see the beauty of the creator, through the creation of the world around us, whether it is in our grandchildren, our scenery views, our pets, etc.
God's beauty is all around us. Isnt this what God has put inside each and every human being, from the beginning, Roman 1:20:
THE MESSAGE:
As people try to put a shroud over truth. But the basic reality of God is plain enough. Open your eyes and there it is. By taking a long and thoughtful look at what God has created, people have always been able to see what their eyes as such can't see; eternal power, for instance, and the mystery of his divine being. So nobody has a good excuse. What happened was this: People knew God perfectly well, but......Roman 1:21

NLT: Roman 1:19: For the truth about God is known to them instinctively. God has put this knowledge in their hearts.
CEV: Romans 1:19: They know everything that can be known about God, because God has shown it all to them.

My point is this. You are right. We can worship the Creator, by looking at the creation, because God is there, and our conversation with Him is just that simple.

TALK TO LATER/HAVE A GIDDAY.

Lenore

[Mark C.]

Lenore and Dave,

  After talking with a number of exassemblyites, or those who have been involved in similar groups, it is amazing to me how different we all are in trying to get back on track with our lives with God.

  Some can kind of shrug the whole thing off and clearly make distincitions between the baloney they were taught in their former group and just step into a healthy life with Christ.  

  These individuals I described above have a hard time understanding why some struggle with certain phrases/concepts such as "morning time" and why they have such a strong emotional block to just being quiet and thinking about God.

  We may say, " why can't that individual just see that God is loving, and only wants to bless His children?"

  For some it takes time-- and maybe it just takes time away from any kind of formal/informal spiritual discipline that requires anything from them at all.  I am not saying to participate in indulgence in sin,--but not having a morning time is not sin!  GG had them all the time and look at him!!

  Maybe an illustration would be helpful:  Remember all those couples meetings we used to have?  We were supposed to "work" on our relationships.  I have heard this same approach from other groups re. having a strong marriage.

  When anything becomes work it robs it of the pleasure, though I recognize that work can sometimes be satisfying, if it just becomes "work" then there is a natural resistance to pursue it.  We have to work to earn money, unless we win the Lotto (come on lucky numbers  ), and so we endure the day to day stress.

  Is this what marriage is supposed to be?  A test of endurance?  Can't we just enjoy the relationship and do the things we do in it because we love to do things that make our mate happy?

  I think I understand better Dave what the commentator on Samuel means when he talks about relationships between God and these individuals.  David had a delight in God that caused him to do certain things vs. he doing things because God commanded him to do it.  David was a man of the heart; and I think God is a God of the heart as well.

  It is enough to just rest, and if your mind has a hard time focusing on prayer, or quiet Bible reading, it's okay to just say I don't have to do that now.  God loves me and understands what I going through.  Like a good friend He wants to see us get better, not to become accomplished religionists!

 I've already shared in the past how I couldn't pray or read the Bible when I first left as I heard GG's blaring voice heaping me with guilt.  I won't go back over what I did, and what helps you may be different anyway, but the point I want to get at is that our relationship with God is a gift based relationship ; and that means we are totally secure in His loving arms and there is nothing we can do to fall out of the arms, or keep ourselves in them!

  I know some may say this is not liberty but license, however eventually you will discover that you gain an inner stablity and a quiet confidence that will bring more glory to God in your life.  After all, the Spirit of God is supposed to produce fruit in our life like, peace, joy, love, etc. and I find it hard to make these so "spiritual" that we can't see the strong emotional content in these attributes.  Are these fruits produce by our efforts?  Do these emotions express themselves in dutiful chores for the Kingdom?  

  For those of you whose Assembly experience was not cause for such emotional confusion I say:  Great!  For those of us who have just gotten off the merry-go-round we are still trying to find our balance again.  Take a seat for a while if you need to.

                                                 God Bless,  Mark C.

   

[al Hartman]

Believe it or not, I still have a quiet time, though not as regimented as the old days.  Today, I came up to the following section which was written by Eugene Peterson in his introduction to First and Second Samuel in The Message:

For the biblical way is not so much to present us with a moral code and tell us "Live up to this"; nor is it to set out a system of doctrine and say, "Think like this and you will live well."  The biblical way is to tell a story and invite us, "Live into this.  This is what it looks like to be human; this is what is involved in entering and maturing as human beings."  We do violence to the biblical revelation when we "use" it for what we can get out of it or what we think will provide color and spice to our otherwise bland lives.  That results is a kind of "boutique spirituality" -- God as decoration, God as enhancement.  The Samuel narrative will not allow that.  In the reading, as we submit our lives to what we read, we find that we are not being led to see God in our stories but to see our stories in God's.  God is the larger context and plot in which our stories find themselves.

What do you think?

     Returning to this thread's original question, Peterson's point clearly seems to me to be:  God's purpose in giving us the Bible is not to provide us with information we can use by which to establish a pattern or plan for our life, into which we can insert Him.  Rather, the Bible was given us to reveal Him and His plan so that we may learn who He is and where we fit in, according to His design.  I have underscored portions of the quoted text, above, which I think accentuate that point.  The author is using the opportunity of the books of Samuel to point out a principle that embraces all of scripture and all of life.
.............................................................................................................................

     It is interesting, and perhaps somewhat telling, that Dave's incidental introductory remark re: his quiet time brought such a strong reaction from you Mark.  For example, you interpreted the generic term "quiet time" to mean "morning time," and you employ the terms "recoil,"   "force myself," and "feeling guilty" to describe your personal experience.  Your feelings on the matter were strong enough to turn the topic of this thread from its primary consideration to another...

DISCLAIMER:  No one or no one's viewpoint is under attack here.  This is a "no fault" discussion...

     As one who used to "enforce" your personal "morning times," Mark, I may be uniquely qualified to enter this discussion.  By labeling all your posts "FREE IN CHRIST 13 YEARS!" then suggesting the possibility of one's being locked out of or into certain behaviors, you open up compelling considerations...  How "free" is free?

     Let me say that, as the enforcer, by example & demand, of the morning times of all the brothers in my house, I set the stage for failure.  With the best of intentions, i paved the road to hell with a broad tarmac of unpleasant and unsuccessful efforts of my own, reinforced by the facade of my personal devotions' actually being productive.  They were seldom so.

     But now, here we are:  free from the bondage of all those rules and regulations-- FREE, I say... to do what, exactly?  To enjoy the very Person of our Lord Jesus Christ (as long as He doesn't walk us too near those things that wrench our guts; those things that by their very existence make us tremble with rage, or fear, or any one of countless other emotions)?  But God hasn't given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

     This cannot be too strongly emphasized:  Emotions are a normal part of human nature-- not just of the fallen nature of the old man.  Emotions are not carnal-- they are human, and as such they reflect the nature of God.  Jesus was an emotional person:  He wept, He raged, He was moved with compassion, He loved.  BUT...  Jesus was never, ever, controlled by His passions.  He had His emotional component under the control of His mind and in submission to His Heavenly Father at all times!

     Mark's comments illustrate the importance of our attitude toward God and toward the things of God; the polar opposite perspectives of "GOT TO" and "GET TO."
     Assembly folk were forced through a boot camp and enlisted into a "GOT TO" branch of the Lord's army.  If you want to be right with God, you have GOT TO keep a morning time, attend certain meetings, perform certain stewardships, and on and on and on...  The insidiousness of the situation was that many, perhaps most of, the things we did were good things, in and of themselves.  The LIE was that these things were mandatory in order to please and serve God!  The "GOT TO" lie.

     God has employed various means to liberate us from the lie that we must work our way into His favor.  What He has showed each of us has brought us out from under the heel of oppression, but not with the purpose of leaving us exposed out in the open.  Many of us, having emerged from the cloying darkness to feel the fresh air and sunshine after so long a time, have stopped in our tracks just to savor the experience.  Sooner or later we must realize that the emergence is but the beginning of the experience, and to stop at any point is to become vulnerable and subject to disaster.

     The Lord brings His children out from many places and situations.  We will meet many brethren who did not come from our fold, our background.  Where He brought us from is of relatively little importance-- it is our Destination that is all important:  He is bringing us to Himself.  If we find that less than thrilling, it should not surprise us...  Look what we are:  Sinners.  Look where we have been:  In prison, bound by chains of disobedience and ungodliness.  Our minds have been trained since birth to think in the ways of the godless world:  Me first; all about me.  We have all been subjected to teachings of godlessness, ungodliness, or false godliness.  It takes some time to acclimate to the atmosphere of true godliness: the presence of God Himself.  But that is our Destination:  HE is our Destination.

     This is where the "GET TO" aspect appears, and it is a difficult  concept for us at first.  Our entire lives have been subject to the principle that our actions produce our situations-- we naturally think in terms of having to do certain things in order to get or have certain results.  Now God is showing us that He has done all the certain things necessary to provide us with the certain results we need.  That's it!  No tricks, no small print or hidden clauses!  It seems to us unnatural.  Well, guess what?-- It IS unnatural!  It's supernatural.

     Those things we thought we had to do:  Bible study, prayer, worship, fellowship... all are unnecessary.  We don't have to do them!  We are free of them.  Jesus Christ has done everything that has to be done, EVER, to bring us to where God wants us; to where we need to be.  But there is nothing wrong with those things.  They were never bad things.  The problem we had with them was in our attitude toward them:  We thought we had to perform them, and when we tried and the results were not as we had hoped, we were discouraged.  Not wanting to feel like failures, we blamed our misery on the things.

     Now God wants us to see that the things themselves are neutral-- it is how we regard them that gives them character, for better or for worse.  Can God speak to us if we don't read the Bible?  Of course He can.  Can we talk to God if we don't do it on a regular scheduled basis?  Yup!-- any time, any place.  Can we be saved if we don't go to church?  Sure can!  These are things that God has made available to us-- things we GET TO do if we want to.  Should we do them?  There is only one "should," and that is that we should dump the idea of "should."  Guilt has no place in the life with God, for Jesus bore ALL our guilt upon Himself on the cross.  Likewise feeling ashamed-- He took that away for us too.  So if you feel guilty or ashamed because of some "spiritual" function you are not performing, get rid of that feeling-- deny it any right in your life-- it's a lie!
     You GET TO spend time with the Lord if you want to, and if there is something you feel you "ought to" (closely related to "should") be doing, but you aren't, you GET TO ask the Lord regarding it, if you want to.  This is what being free in Christ is all about; what Mark calls a gift-based relationship with God through Christ.  When a gift is given, it becomes the property of the recipient.  A true gift giver will never tell the one to whom the gift is given what must be done with it.
     Christ is your gift, to do with as you choose.  You may open your Gift, or just sit and gaze at the beauty of the wrapping.  The question is not what you MUST do, but what you CAN do and what you WILL do, all without fear of penalty.  Are some decisions about this Gift preferable to others?  Well, now, that's a question you can ask the One Who gave you the Gift.
     If you choose to...

al




     

[Mark C.]

....................................................................................................

     It is interesting, and perhaps somewhat telling, that Dave's incidental introductory remark re: his quiet time brought such a strong reaction from you Mark.  Your feelings on the matter were strong enough to turn the topic of this thread from its primary consideration to another...

     As one who used to "enforce" your personal "morning times," Mark, I may be uniquely qualified to enter this discussion.  By labeling all your posts "FREE IN CHRIST 13 YEARS!" then suggesting the possibility of one's being locked out of or into certain behaviors, you open up compelling considerations...  How "free" is free?
          But now, here we are:  free from the bondage of all those rules and regulations-- FREE, I say... to do what, exactly?  To enjoy the very Person of our Lord Jesus Christ (as long as He doesn't walk us too near those things that wrench our guts; those things that by their very existence make us tremble with rage, or fear, or any one of countless other emotions)?  But God hasn't given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

    Jesus was an emotional person:  He wept, He raged, He was moved with compassion, He loved.  BUT...  Jesus was never, ever, controlled by His passions.  He had His emotional component under the control of His mind and in submission to His Heavenly Father at all times!

     Mark's comments illustrate the importance of our attitude toward God and toward the things of God; the polar opposite perspectives of "GOT TO" and "GET TO."
      Many of us, having emerged from the cloying darkness to feel the fresh air and sunshine after so long a time, have stopped in our tracks just to savor the experience.  Sooner or later we must realize that the emergence is but the beginning of the experience, and to stop at any point is to become vulnerable and subject to disaster.

    al




     

   Hi Al!

   As always your comments have a very precise focus.  I have strayed from Dave's original point, in my previous post, and I did indeed react to the use of the term "quiet time"----- but that was exactly the point of my post:  I have a problem with certain memories re. "spiritual disciplines" from my Assembly days, and I know that others share this same feeling.

   As I also said, I am very happy for those who don't struggle with this, and am in no way negative toward these kind of devotional pursuits.  However, I am always conscious of those who read here who may be feeling like I  have/am, and though I may change the topic a bit, on this BB the real bottom line topic is trying to help one another recover from our Assembly past.  I know that you agree with this.

  HOW FREE IS FREE?  We all agree that grace does not free us to sin and so maybe a better question is, "what is sin?"-- and the most difficult question that may follow, "how do I deal with sin in my life?"   This was a hard question to work through for me, because in the Assembly we were taught to feel that anything but a perfectly and absolutely surrendered heart to God was sinful.
  Yes, we were saved in the Assembly, but God has given us our freedom as an "opportunity" to attain perfection and we better not blow it!!!  Al, I respectfully disagree:  it will not be "disastrous" to do "nothing", or to "stand still."

   I remember when I first left taking a trip to the beach with my family and feeling terribly guilty for no particular reason at all!  I tried to think through why this might be and at that time couldn't put my finger on it.
   Yes, we are free in Christ, and I believed that even while in the Assembly, but one's emotional life must catch up with one's cognitive reasoning.  Just quoting verses to one another about the liberty we should experience doesn't always work.  I understand the good intentions of those who want to help, but there are some deeper issues that need to be resolved before some of us can understand what is really going on inside of us.

  Yes, Jesus always had His emotions under control and so should His followers.   Does Jesus promise this aspect of the "victorious life" to each believer?  There are plenty of verses that seem to be pretty clear, like the one you quoted Al--- that we are promised sound minds and freedom from fear.
   What if I can't seem to experience this overcoming?  Is the fault my weak faith?  Possibly I just need to see Christ more clearly?  Or maybe I'm just kind of defective/weak and unable to "lay hold" on the promises?  Maybe I just need to "let go and let God," or some such other "key" to spiritual life?

  I believe that honesty is very important in our lives with God and if we are struggling with the control of our emotions (as in guilt, reacting to our assembly past, etc.) and also sin, the solution is not always a "spiritual" one .
  I put "spiritual" in quotes because it could be that our very notion of this life of perfection is a kind of schizophrenic approach that attempts to "control" our humanity and see these normal human feelings as wild things that must be broken and subdued.

  I have had to try and understand these things in my life and the "victory" that I have discovered after 13 years is one of rejoining the human race as just ol' Mark C. ; I look at people, and myself, much differently now.

  I guess I really took this off topic--- but maybe not, it is after all "Re. The Purpose of Biblical Revelation" and how we live our lives as Christians is central to the bible.

                                              God Bless,  Mark C.  

   

 

[M2]

....
  I believe that honesty is very important in our lives with God and if we are struggling with the control of our emotions (as in guilt, reacting to our assembly past, etc.) and also sin, the solution is not always a "spiritual" one .
  I put "spiritual" in quotes because it could be that our very notion of this life of perfection is a kind of schizophrenic approach that attempts to "control" our humanity and see these normal human feelings as wild things that must be broken and subdued.

  I have had to try and understand these things in my life and the "victory" that I have discovered after 13 years is one of rejoining the human race as just ol' Mark C. ; I look at people, and myself, much differently now.

  I guess I really took this off topic--- but maybe not, it is after all "Re. The Purpose of Biblical Revelation" and how we live our lives as Christians is central to the bible.

Yes, I agree with mark on this.  "Spirituality" is often pre-defined by the individual who then uses Scripture verses to support his/her claim.  E.g.  Someone decides that information on this BB is rumors, and then proves from the Scriptures that it is "unspiritual" to participate in rumours, thus condemning the BB participant.

While I agree that devotion for the Lord is spiritually healthy,  some have pre-determined that "devotion times" is the means of demonstrating one's devotion.  One person is very distressed by his wife's lack of "morning times" because he then concludes that her walk with the Lord is suffering.  I would say that she is in a much more healthy condition "spiritually" than her husband is because he is still carting around his assembly baggage. (Disclaimer: I am not speaking of my husband here).  Personally, I do like to read a portion of Scripture every morning.

Lord bless,
Marcia

PS  Welcome back Mark.  Hope you are all in one piece and that you succeed in posting that picture.
MM

[Mark C.]

Hi Marcia!!

  I'm glad that you were able to understand the point I was trying to make.  I can spend many paragraphs trying to say what others seem to be able to say in one sentence.

   Thanks for the welcome home and I hope the photo can be seen as well because there is a story that goes with it that is kind of funny.

  I know you got the point, but for others who may be confused I didn't mean to say that there is no such thing as spirituality, just that we may be searching for a false view of "higher life" that God doesn't intend for us.  This false view may have a "superman" ideal that doesn't include the fact of human weakness, or even just normal humanity.  This is especially true for those of us who have spent years under GG instruction.

                            Good to be back, and God Bless,  Mark C.

[lenore]

 ;)JUNE 6, 2:56 AM:

DEAR MARK:

QUOTE:.

  As I also said, I am very happy for those who don't struggle with this, and am in no way negative toward these kind of devotional pursuits.  However, I am always conscious of those who read here who may be feeling like I  have/am, and though I may change the topic a bit, on this BB the real bottom line topic is trying to help one another recover from our Assembly past.  I know that you agree with this. QUOTE:


===========================================

This is a quote from one of your post on this thread.

TOPIC STRUGGLING:

I hope you dont think that I dont struggle to maintain a relationship with Christ.
Oh but I do.  I just know that to maintain that relationship with Christ. There has to be some sort of committment on my part as well.
I believe what you say, is true.

God is there , you dont have to seek him out, you dont have to shout , and perform spiritual tricks.
You do have to make an effort.
God does say. Draw near to me, I will draw near to you.
God's hand is always outreach to grab us. He will not force  himself on us.  We must reach out to him, so we can grab that hand of the Heavenly Father.

I agree sometime, we need to step back, and wait to see where God is leading us. We cannot force our relationship with God. God wants that relationship, and he is willing to wait until we are ready to go forth with it.
I always says I am a two step dancer type of Christian.

One step forward and two steps back. One step forward and two steps back.  I am not sure if the is the fox trot or not.
But when I step back, can because of me wanting to go my own way, selfish desires etc. or it could be that I have not fully understood, what I had just learn at Jesus feet, and need it to rely on Jesus to show me the way.

Learning to rely on Jesus , is really hard to do at time.
How do you know what Jesus wants us to learn, how to trust in him, how to follow him.  Jesus is our friend, our brother, our husband, our Lord, our Saviour, our King. etc.
Dont we talk to our earthly friends, our earthly brother(s), our earthly spouses. Do we not have some sort of relationship with them. When they talk to us, do we not make an effort to listen to them.

Isnt that what a relationship with Jesus should be , conversing with him face to face, just like if he was standing in front of us.

In order to do that we must be able to be prepare to have that face to face conversation.
Believe it or not the best times I have talking with Jesus is when I am in the tub. My mother use to have it in the bathroom, when I was growing up.
I remember hearing about Suzanne Wesley, she would just throw here apron over her head. her 14 children knew that when that apron was over Mom head, they were not to disturb her. She was talking to God.
I heard of another story of another mother. She would go into the child's playpen.  These women knew the importance of a time alone with God. It didnt matter where , or when, just that it was important.

I hope I made sense:

Talk to you
Later


 

[outdeep]

On the topic of quiet times, I believe that all spiritual disciplines should be tied to purpose.  When I go to the gym, I do so for two distinct purposes:  Cardiovascular exercise helps me feel better and certain exercises keep me from developing back problems.  That is the reason I go.  This purpose is what keeps me going consistently.  If I didn’t have this purpose, I wouldn’t bother going to the gym.

If we conduct spiritual exercises, they should be for no less objective purposes.  For years in the Assembly I too heard and taught the “Jesus spent time with His Father so we OUGHT to do the same”.  (Of course this meant something very specific – kneel by our bed first thing in the morning,  read the Bible, read Psalm 51, try and figure out what the heck George was talking about in the heavenly ladder book, pray, go out into the world, yell at your wife, feel guilty).  

While I understand the assumption that we want to be like Jesus, there are many things Jesus did – heal people, travel about the country without a job, lead at lest 12 disciples, mess up the the temple courtyard – which we don’t do.  To say that we must get alone with God because Jesus did in Mark 1 is like saying we are obligated to have the Lord’s Supper weekly because they happened to do that in Acts 20.  The point is Mark 1 is showing us what Jesus did.  It is not giving a mandate that every Christian must get up a great while before daylight and pray.

However, spiritual disciplines are born out of purpose.  Mark Campbell says he wants to know more about God so he studies theology.  His purpose “I want to know about God in a more systematic way” is the purpose that gets him to read theological works.  A theological student preparing for the ministry may want to master theology (that is his purpose), so he might do well for a time reading the Bible and Christian books for an hour or two a each weekday.  On the other hand, a busy husband and businessman may just want to be reminded of God’s character to counteract the incessant drain of culture (that is his purpose), so he reads the Bible for five to ten minutes whenever he has opportunity.

If you figure out what you want to accomplish (know more about God, be reminded of God’s principles, get the big picture of the Bible, understand theology, speak to God about things that are concerning your heart) then you may set up your spiritual habits in a way that accomplishes these goals in a way that is realistic with your schedule and lifestyle.  

Does it matter whether you read your Bible or read a Christian book?  Again, what is your purpose?  What are you trying to achieve?  If you want a better grasp of theology, then you would do better reading theological works.  If you want to read passages and see how they apply to your life, then read the Bible.  If you have great care on your heart, you may need to go for a walk and pray.  If you are prone to depression and would like to be uplifted, then listen to some happy Christian music.

In the Assembly, quiet time was more of a mysterious sacrament.  It was a unique time of communion that we were expected to attend lest we 1) have a bad day 2) disappoint or tick off God 3) miss out on some undefined eternal benefit.  No, brethren.  Spiritual disciplines are made for the man, not man for the spiritual discipline.  They are tools to accomplish a purpose – nothing more, nothing less.  If the tool doesn’t work, then you should discard it and try something else.

[Mark Kisla]

....
  I believe that honesty is very important in our lives with God and if we are struggling with the control of our emotions (as in guilt, reacting to our assembly past, etc.) and also sin, the solution is not always a "spiritual" one .
  I put "spiritual" in quotes because it could be that our very notion of this life of perfection is a kind of schizophrenic approach that attempts to "control" our humanity and see these normal human feelings as wild things that must be broken and subdued.

  I have had to try and understand these things in my life and the "victory" that I have discovered after 13 years is one of rejoining the human race as just ol' Mark C. ; I look at people, and myself, much differently now.

  I guess I really took this off topic--- but maybe not, it is after all "Re. The Purpose of Biblical Revelation" and how we live our lives as Christians is central to the bible.

Yes, I agree with mark on this.  "Spirituality" is often pre-defined by the individual who then uses Scripture verses to support his/her claim.  E.g.  Someone decides that information on this BB is rumors, and then proves from the Scriptures that it is "unspiritual" to participate in rumours, thus condemning the BB participant.

While I agree that devotion for the Lord is spiritually healthy,  some have pre-determined that "devotion times" is the means of demonstrating one's devotion.  One person is very distressed by his wife's lack of "morning times" because he then concludes that her walk with the Lord is suffering.  I would say that she is in a much more healthy condition "spiritually" than her husband is because he is still carting around his assembly baggage. (Disclaimer: I am not speaking of my husband here).  Personally, I do like to read a portion of Scripture every morning.

Lord bless,
Marcia

PS  Welcome back Mark.  Hope you are all in one piece and that you succeed in posting that picture.
MM

I would prefer to start everyday in the scriptures and prayer but sometimes because of my schedule it does'nt happen. The good news is there's no self condemnation anymore because I'm secure in Christs commitment to me.
My kids have told me that they like it when we can pray together before school,and believe me it's not a formal devotional, just bold, upbeat and to the point.
Devotional reading and conversations around the campfire have brought us closer as a family.
It is amazing when you encounter a situation during your day that applies to the scripture you read that morning.
Mark K

[Mark C.]

Great discussion!

   I'm sure this is helpful to many:  Mark, Dave, and Lenore have shared some very wise and helpful thoughts re. quiet time/devotional life, i.e.the use of biblical revelation.

   I'm not trying to be the fly in the ointment here, but when I speak re. being able to have a devotional life with God I think there are those who may still be having a problem with separating the associations they developed while in the Assembly.

  Dave makes an excellent point re. understanding the purpose for which we read vs. the truly "magical" methods that we used under GG.  Reading the Bible and praying cannot be used to cast spells of protection over our lives or to assimilate emotional and spiritual strength.

  It is because in my past devotional life it was such a strongly felt experience, and through this I was misled, that I have trouble with it now.  Having felt such ecstasy at times, and still having a part of me that would love to be lifted out of the mundane, I am left with wondering how to approach devotional life.

  Lenore talked about making an effort: and to this I can not argue against, for in seeking we are promised that we will find.  She was also clear that it was not in the strength of her will, but a 1 step forward-- 2 step back, that included contemplation.  There are those who just can't make that step forward, though they want to, because the emotional resistance is just too strong.

  I am speaking to those who want to follow God, and are not the normal folks Dave is talking about (though when he mentions me I guess we can't call me normal ) but whom have some confusion.  If they used to sail into ecstasy in their times of Bible reading, prayer, and worship and achieve an altered state of consciousness there may actually be a fear of participating in any devotions now.  Why?  That leads to a false mysticsm that has no power to give us spiritual life, rather leads to a dishonest hypocrisy that is exemplified in GG! (COL. 2:18-)   This they fear and this they associate with the whole concept of devotions.

  My method of dealing with this was to make my Bible reading, prayer, and worship a time of study; I did not try to feel or sense God's presence through these pursuits, but read commentaries, books, etc. with a scholastic approach.  My purpose, to allude to Dave's comments, was to avoid seeking God through my feelings, or an altered state of same.

  Can I now just read a psalm and let it speak to me?  I am much better now after 13 years, yet I must come to such reading with the rock solid understanding that I am completely saved and heir to the Kingdom.  As Dave also shared, I recognize the Psalm does not contain secret code that the Spirit will unvail to give me a direct line of communication to the Throne room!  

  For those just out and having my same problem you will get better and this is why I say that traditional means of devotions, or just strength of will, may not work for you, but God is patient and caring.  Above all, you need not feel guilty for feeling reluctant to return to the old practices and that God will provide a way of healing for you.  Just standing still is not standing still at all, but can be a quiet confidence that God will help me in overcoming my fears, doubts, and reluctance. "STAND STILL AND SEE THE SALVATION OF THE LORD

                                              God Bless,  Mark C.

[sfortescue]

Another strategy is to use familiarity with the Bible as a tool for learning a foreign language.  In the process of trying to learn the precise meanings of the foreign words, you end up having to think about the meaning of the passage that you are reading.

[al Hartman]

   ...I can spend many paragraphs trying to say what others seem to be able to say in one sentence.

     Uh-huh, but you also often say in one sentence what others never seem to get said clearly.  That's called balance.

   ... I didn't mean to say that there is no such thing as spirituality...

     You can keep your shirt on, Mark-- we haven't heated up the "H" branding iron yet!

   ...There are those who just can't make that step forward, though they want to, because the emotional resistance is just too strong.
   ...I am speaking to those who want to follow God  Just standing still is not standing still at all, but can be a quiet confidence that God will help me in overcoming my fears, doubts, and reluctance. "STAND STILL AND SEE THE SALVATION OF THE LORD"

     Here is a perfect example of what I said at the top of this post:  Even though I apparently failed utterly in making my point in yesterday's post , you have summed it up nicely in these quotes.  Just because I love having the last word , I will make one further attempt at clarity:

     "Those who just can't make that step forward, though they want to," are making that step:  It is their desire to do it that is, for them at that time, the doing of it!

     In the passage, "STAND STILL AND SEE THE SALVATION OF THE LORD," the standing still is an act of faith!  This is not in the slightest related to what I was warning against when I wrote of "stopping."

     Thanks, Mark.

God bless,
al