Let's take the gloves off!

[David Mauldin]

Friends I just saw the movie Fahrenheit 9/11.  It is my hope you will also and let me know what you think?  

[outdeep]

Michael Moore uses a simlar technique as George in that he takes things that are facts and arranges them into an alternative context in order to make a statement that is different than one would normally interprete.

For example, in Bowling for Columbine, Moore made it appear as if right after the Columbine incident, the NRA came in to Columbine and had a huge rally where Charleston Heston raised his rifle and made his famous "they will pull my rifle from my cold, dead hands" speech.

Wow!  Charleston Heston is pretty insensitive isn't he?

The truth is, the NRA did have meetings in the area (it may have even been Denver) that were arrange ahead of time.  The NRA cut back their meetings to their business meetings that were required by their bylaws.  There were no speaches and Heston did not make the "from my cold, dead hands" speech at that convention.

This is just one of several examples that were documented of how Michael Moore uses the camera and frames the facts to his liking.  This is why several reviewers refer to his films as "Mocumentaries" instead of "Documentaries".

I know this doesn't answer your question direction.  I don't plan to see F9-11 soon because I don't want to add to its success.  Maybe down the line I may see it, but I have about as much interest in seeing it as I have in going to a Geftakys seminar as I consider them both in the same genre.

P.S.:  Just for the record, I am not an NRA supporter and I do not have any interest in owning a gun.

[David Mauldin]

Dave, did you see "Bowling for Colimbine"?  I was a little offended by some of Moores' deceptivness,(The interviews with Mr. Nichols and Heston) yet I learned a lot about  violence in America.  The jist of the documentary was asking the question Why are we such a violent nation?  Moore doesn't pretend to leave us with any answer to this problem but he does a great job in exposing it and causes us to examine ouselves.  Please don't write off F-9/11.  Just see it and let's talk.

[Oscar]

The jist of the documentary was asking the question Why are we such a violent nation?  Moore doesn't pretend to leave us with any answer to this problem but he does a great job in exposing it and causes us to examine ouselves

Dave,

I was not aware that you have a violence problem.  Have you had this problem all your life?  Or, did it emerge recently?

Have you sought counselling?  That might help.  

Now that I think about it, the title of this thread, "Let's take the gloves off!", is an invitation to violence.  I hadn't thought of that before reading your post.

I don't remember you as being an angry, hostile person, Dave.  You seemed like a gentle man.  Now, you want to "take the gloves off."

Be careful, Dave.  Violence has consequences.

Thomas Maddux

[grace12]

The jist of the documentary was asking the question Why are we such a violent nation?  Moore doesn't pretend to leave us with any answer to this problem but he does a great job in exposing it and causes us to examine ouselves

Dave,

I was not aware that you have a violence problem.  Have you had this problem all your life?  Or, did it emerge recently?

Have you sought counselling?  That might help.  

Now that I think about it, the title of this thread, "Let's take the gloves off!", is an invitation to violence.  I hadn't thought of that before reading your post.

I don't remember you as being an angry, hostile person, Dave.  You seemed like a gentle man.  Now, you want to "take the gloves off."

Be careful, Dave.  Violence has consequences.

Thomas Maddux

(Deleted)  Especially those who have decided that God and Christianity is a sham, and that people like George Geftakys stole the best years of their lives from them.

It is understandable, and is only one example of how George and his people have really devastated those that were true believers.

[Oscar]

The jist of the documentary was asking the question Why are we such a violent nation?  Moore doesn't pretend to leave us with any answer to this problem but he does a great job in exposing it and causes us to examine ouselves

Dave,

I was not aware that you have a violence problem.  Have you had this problem all your life?  Or, did it emerge recently?

Have you sought counselling?  That might help.  

Now that I think about it, the title of this thread, "Let's take the gloves off!", is an invitation to violence.  I hadn't thought of that before reading your post.

I don't remember you as being an angry, hostile person, Dave.  You seemed like a gentle man.  Now, you want to "take the gloves off."

Be careful, Dave.  Violence has consequences.

Thomas Maddux

Lot's of X are angry.  Especially those who have decided that God and Christianity is a sham, and that people like George Geftakys stole the best years of their lives from them.

It is understandable, and is only one example of how George and his people have really devastated those that were true believers.

Dear anonymous poster,

It looks to me as if you are accusing Dave Mauldin of being a homosexual.  You have offered absolutely no evidence of: 1. Who you really are; 2. That he indeed has this problem.

Therefore I have edited your accusation out of your post.  Please do not call people ugly names.  Especially as you choose to remain hidden yourself.

Thomas Maddux
Global Moderator

[Mark C.]

Hi David!

  I am also very angry at what GG did to me while in the Assembly, but I do not automatically reject God and Christianity because of that.

 In the Assembly we were involved in a gross distortion of the teaching of the Christian faith, and those distortions should be rejected.

  I'm not saying that there have not been moments that I  questioned my faith, or even my own sanity, but I always believed that the problems was not that "God was a sham" but that my perception was the problem.

  I would imagine that most Homosexuals angrily reject Bible believing Christian beliefs because they feel guilty about their sexual inclinations.  It must be a very difficult, and unhappy life, to have desires that one finds impossible to change, and yet they are condemned for having them-- kind of a catch-22 type situation.

  There are all kinds of sins that an individual may be trapped in (example=heterosexual porn.) but angrily rejecting God's moral standards is not the answer.  This still leaves us with a nagging guilt and a feeling that God is rejecting us.  The truth is that God is not asking us to change ourselves, but to agree that we have a serious moral problem over which we have no control, and ask for His help.

  I imagine this is something that you tried to change in your life when you first joined up with the Assembly, and found that all the hope for a "cure" via "Christian teaching" brought only great discouragement.

  That GG lived a sham, and taught a false holiness message that promised that all sinful desires would depart our souls and we could live perfect lives, is clear to most now.  Exactly what to do with persistent desires that are contrary to clear Biblical teaching is probably less clear to most us.

  What if we've confessed and prayed our hearts out for years, and feel like the desires are just as strong as ever?    

 And if so, does that mean there is no God? And if God is real, and his supply of grace through the Spirit available to us: how come I can't seem to find help?

  It certainly does not mean that God helps those who can manage to wrestle down sin in their own souls, though we are told as Christians to struggle against sin in our lives.

  No, I think the answer lies in finding others who have struggled with similar sinful inclinations and getting their help.  God has gifted His body with those he sends to minister to every need.

  God is not the author of our "catch-22", nor does he reject us for our sin, but is the way out of the trap. The answer to that need is not the instant kind of "touch from God" that will make it all go away. This does not mean that God has not provided some other less "spiritual" means to help us.

  God has provided this BB where ex-assembly members can find help with their specific needs regarding their deceptions.  This BB can be helpful because it is made up of ex-members who understand what it means to have fallen into that trap.

  There are ministries that God is using to help homosexuals find deliverance from their abberant desires and discovery of true joy in Christ.  Focus On The Family sponsors one such group and by going to their site one could get in contact with them.

  I am not trying to mock you David,and truly have only your best interests in mind in sharing these things.

                                          God Bless,  Mark C.

[delila]

The jist of the documentary was asking the question Why are we such a violent nation?  Moore doesn't pretend to leave us with any answer to this problem but he does a great job in exposing it and causes us to examine ouselves

Dave,

I was not aware that you have a violence problem.  Have you had this problem all your life?  Or, did it emerge recently?

Have you sought counselling?  That might help.  

Now that I think about it, the title of this thread, "Let's take the gloves off!", is an invitation to violence.  I hadn't thought of that before reading your post.

I don't remember you as being an angry, hostile person, Dave.  You seemed like a gentle man.  Now, you want to "take the gloves off."

Be careful, Dave.  Violence has consequences.

Thomas Maddux

Tom:
If you don't see the USA as a violent nation, you need counselling

delila

[al Hartman]

Tom:
If you don't see the USA as a violent nation, you need counselling

delila

1.  The USA has plenty of violence.

2.  Nobody on this thread (so far) has denied that or even hinted that it isn't so.

3.  I don't know of anyone who is beyond the need of sound counselling.

4.  Violence has many forms beyond the physical;  mental, emotional, verbal...  Take great care to not become the thing you claim to deplore.

al

[Oscar]

The jist of the documentary was asking the question Why are we such a violent nation?  Moore doesn't pretend to leave us with any answer to this problem but he does a great job in exposing it and causes us to examine ouselves

Dave,

I was not aware that you have a violence problem.  Have you had this problem all your life?  Or, did it emerge recently?

Have you sought counselling?  That might help.  

Now that I think about it, the title of this thread, "Let's take the gloves off!", is an invitation to violence.  I hadn't thought of that before reading your post.

I don't remember you as being an angry, hostile person, Dave.  You seemed like a gentle man.  Now, you want to "take the gloves off."

Be careful, Dave.  Violence has consequences.

Thomas Maddux

Tom:
If you don't see the USA as a violent nation, you need counselling

delila

Delila,

Actually, I don't really understand what the term "a violent nation" means.

Does it mean that many violent people live in the USA?  If that is what it means, then all nations are violent nations, since all have violent people.

Does it mean that all Americans are violent?  That simply wouldn't be true.

Is it a description of current or past governmental policies?  In that case it seems an election would transform us into a peaceful nation, and then a later election could transform is back again.

How much violence does a nation have to have to qualify as a "violent" nation.  One act?  One million acts?  Two? Three?

So, I guess someone will have to explain to me just what the term means.

If anyone knows.

Thomas Maddux

[lenore]

Tom:
If you don't see the USA as a violent nation, you need counselling

delila

1.  The USA has plenty of violence.

2.  Nobody on this thread (so far) has denied that or even hinted that it isn't so.

3.  I don't know of anyone who is beyond the need of sound counselling.

4.  Violence has many forms beyond the physical;  mental, emotional, verbal...  Take great care to not become the thing you claim to deplore.

al

JUNE 26: 11:43 PM

Violence is just not a USA problem. It is in major Canadian cities.

Canadian get the news from USA, I dont know how Canadian news travel the other way.

Even in Ottawa, there are violence, that other major North American Cities  endure.

Just turn on our television, most of the programming we Canadian watch is American television.

I was thinking about this most of the evening.
Violences touches us each and every day. Just watch the News , read the News, or even listen to the news.
It is not just North American, there are violence through out the world.

Violence is reality, but do we have to become obsessed with it . No.
Can violence become personal, yes, we can become victims of violence in many forms.
Do we have to be the on who  is a part of violence . NO.

I agree with Al. There are many forms of violence, even the speech has become violence in tones and words.

Is our culture so different from Biblical times, in the subject of violence.  

Every generation has had it share of violence.
Unfortunately , when you get several million people living in one city, with different cultures, different ideas, different needs.  Everyone wants their own way, their own rights, trying to survive, trying to feed their family, poverty, hopelessness.

Remember, this world is ready to explode. The master of violence is ready and posed, it is going to get worse.
For us Christians, MASTER OF LIFE, LOVE , AND LIBERTY
is also ready, posed and will act.

Violence is a real whether we are Americans, Canadians, city dwellers, rural dwellers, children, adults, seniors, whether we are of European decent, African decent, Asian decent, or First Nations decent.
Whether we are North American by birth or adopted in to the countries by immigrating.

I think most of North Americans, have really no idea, what violence really is, when so many refugees, have horror stories, that would make our Hollywood Movie look like a lullaby.

Violence like every thing else, needs to be talked about, dealt with, maybe we need to be more active in solving the matter.  

Am I making any sense???

[sfortescue]

There has been violence in the world for ages, but I think that what David Mauldin is trying to bring attention to is a special kind of violence.  This form of violence is well portrayed in the Twilight Zone episode, "Printer's devil."  Mr. Smith (the devil) has made special modifications to the linotype machine so that whatever is typed into it happens.  By this means he is able to bring success to a newspaper business.

Since so much of the violence that the news makes a big deal out of is carried out by a very small number of people, it is not unreasonable to imagine that those few people are in some sense sponsored by some organization connected with the news media.  Such an organization would be very much like the devil's linotype machine in the Twilight Zone episode.

[moonflower2]

Hi Lenore,

I think that violence is a characteristic of the USA. We may not have as many violent incidents as other countries, but I think it's just a matter of time.

The violent crime of abortion happens more than 1 million times each year in America.

Moonflower

[outdeep]

David,

I did see the movie.  Mr. Moore called it Bowling for Columbine based on the idea that the Columbine killers was enrolled in a bowling class the morning before the killing.  Though they actually skipped the class that morning, it could have been presumed that bowling was one of the last things they did before the 11:00 AM shooting.  Blaiming hard rock music such as Marilyn Manson for the killing (as religious types rushed to do) is about  as logical as blaming bowling.  This was Mr. Moore's point and he could be right on this.

He then attempted to show that we were a nation of gun nuts.  He gave the example of how silly it seemed to him that a bank was giving away rifles to those who opened a CD account (actually, rather safe since he did not show the fact that he had to sit in the lobby for an hour while a background check was done and give the bank a couple thousand dollars to open an account - not a great set up to turn around and rob the bank).

He then went to to a survivalist group and made links to Timothy McVeigh.

He offered the following explanations of our preoccupation with guns.

1.  He pointed out that in Columbine there was a large defence plant.  Could the fact that we were making missles to destroy lives overseas be the model the Columbine killers to kill at home.  (He didn't point out that one of the Columbine killer's parents were gun control advocates).

2.  He showed the plight of a woman who had to take a bus from Flint Michigan to work two minimum wage jobs and couldn't make enough to pay her rent.  She was forced to move to her brother's house.  Her son, who was unsupervised, found a gun and shot someone at school.  Moore then blames business that don't pay enough and specifically Dick Clark since she worked at his chain of restaurants.  

What Mr. Moore didn't point out (and investigation afterwards showed) was that the amount she was making was plenty to pay her low rent.  Further there were job and rent subsidies right there in Flint that she was not taking advantage of (could have been an errant social worker who didn't tell her or other reasons).  Finally, her brother where the son found the gun was running a crack house.  I would be more inclinded to put some blame here rather than on Dick Clark.

3.  He then moved to racism.  He made some dubious ties between the KKK and the NRA via a cartoon.  He then pointed out that we were a culture of fear because the nightly news focuses in on crime - especially racial crime.  Actually, according to Mr. Moore, inner city Los Angeles is actually rather safe.  The real problem is air polution, not crime.  We only think that the inner cities are unsafe because of the constant news reporting.  If you compare this to Canada, where the news is not so obsessed with racial crime, you find a different attitude in people, less racism and less tendency to be gun nuts.  He relied heavily on the author of "Culture of Fear".

While I am not sure I believe the inner city of Los Angeles is perfectly safe, I do think Mr. Moore has a point here in terms of the type of junk that is churned out in network news.  If this is what you were getting at, David, when you made your comment about a violent society, I would agree with you.

4.  He does have a segment where he blames K-mart for selling the the bullets that were used in Columbine.  He walked into their corporate headquarters and, on film, demanded they stop selling bullets which they agreed to.

This was my understanding of the film.  Because Mr. Moore has such a slanted adjenda, again, I will probably not see his new film now, but down the line.  I don't want to add my vote to his ratings.  I do feel offended at Hollywood for breaking it's unwritten rule and distributing a blatantly political work attacking a sitting President.  This has never been done before.  I know we have free speech and Mr. Moore has every right to declare his opinion.  But with Mr. Moore, the purchasing of Mr. Frankin's air time and George Soro's spending billions, I feel it is a flaunting of any campaign reform attempts.  You know that if this wins Kerry the election, conservatives will strike back in kind on the next election and it will escelate the battle of high stakes, multi-million dollar "spin wars".  I would rather discuss issues.

A book that I would read, I suppose would be Woodward's book "Plan of Attack".  He seems to argue that Bush did have an intensity about going to war, but it also points out that the information he was receving at the time (and the conventional wisdom of many of both parties) was that the fact of WMD's were a "slam dunk".  In other words, he seems to be attempting to show facts - both sides of the debate may benefit depending on what they choose to emphasise, but Woodward doesn't openly pitch his tent on any one side.

Lord bless,

Dave

P.S.:  I am on vacation and I may not have internet the next week.  I may not be able to reply until July 5th.

[David Mauldin]

Hello? How in the world did my "violence problem" become an issue? (Tom, as ussual I don't understand you.  Are you being sarcastict?) How did my "homosexual" problem become an issue?  Oh, by the way please inform my fiance' about this, we are getting marride July 10th at the Anahiem Unitarian Church 11:00 All Welcome! (Stephen Mather-Cottons' great, great, great, great grandson will be performing the ceremony.) My point in starting this thread was to invite people to watch Fahrenheit 9/11.  Dave I appreciate what you wrote about "Bowling for Columbine"  I would agree with you and state again that Mr.M doesn't offer any answers to the problems. A couple of months ago a husband and wife spoke at my church.  They have been succsesful at getting legislation passed that prohibits the sale of rapid fire weapons to citizens. Why are they involved in this stuff?  Yes, their son was killed by such a weapon.
Now is this the answer to the fact that more U.S. citizens were killed in L.A. last year than in Iraq? I don't know.  I do think it is important to them and perhaps this was Mr. Ms point.  


  Fahrenheit 9/11 is an altogether different movie.  Yes it is "Propaganda" and Mr. M states this himself.  Yes he takes facts and weaves them together to present a conspiracy theory.  But any intelligent person can evaluate the facts by themselves and draw their own conclusions.  Please don't let your image of me keep you from watching this film!