Let's take the gloves off!

[lenore]

Hi Lenore,

I think that violence is a characteristic of the USA. We may not have as many violent incidents as other countries, but I think it's just a matter of time.

The violent crime of abortion happens more than 1 million times each year in America.

Moonflower

Hello Moonflower:

Abortion is readily available in Canada too.

Doesnt violence whether it is abortion, drive by shootings, violences against women and children, wars, gangs, doesnt it stem from one thing.
SELFISHNESS, SELF CENTERNESS, WANTING ONES RIGHTS in otherwords 'SIN'.

Yes I agree, violence is only going to get worse.
Because the Master of Sin is at work.

But the Good News is we have a Stronger Master at Work, but because of the times we live in whether we are North Americans, or Middle Eastern, or Africans, or Asians. Even South & Central American.
God has warned us within his Word of what the end times are going to be like.

Even with school violence like Columbine, even the one in Alberta. Even in the midst of all that horror, there was praise and honour to God, about the girl who stood up for God before being shot. The Father of the student in Alberta, showing his forgiveness. Even in Ottawa, when a girl was brutually murder while riding on the bicycle path, her parents exercise their faith in God, to extend forgiveness.

With these examples this show how much more God is at work over the deeds of hands of man.

USA is a violent country in many areas.
Should we look to the examples like these people did, rose above the violents, relied on their Saviour, and bore witness to the world community.
I think these examples are much better to give hope, love and faith.  I believe much better to follow and think upon.  

[Oscar]

Hello? How in the world did my "violence problem" become an issue? (Tom, as ussual I don't understand you.  Are you being sarcastict?) How did my "homosexual" problem become an issue?  Oh, by the way please inform my fiance' about this, we are getting marride July 10th at the Anahiem Unitarian Church 11:00 All Welcome! (Stephen Mather-Cottons' great, great, great, great grandson will be performing the ceremony.) My point in starting this thread was to invite people to watch Fahrenheit 9/11.  Dave I appreciate what you wrote about "Bowling for Columbine"  I would agree with you and state again that Mr.M doesn't offer any answers to the problems. A couple of months ago a husband and wife spoke at my church.  They have been succsesful at getting legislation passed that prohibits the sale of rapid fire weapons to citizens. Why are they involved in this stuff?  Yes, their son was killed by such a weapon.
Now is this the answer to the fact that more U.S. citizens were killed in L.A. last year than in Iraq? I don't know.  I do think it is important to them and perhaps this was Mr. Ms point.  


  Fahrenheit 9/11 is an altogether different movie.  Yes it is "Propaganda" and Mr. M states this himself.  Yes he takes facts and weaves them together to present a conspiracy theory.  But any intelligent person can evaluate the facts by themselves and draw their own conclusions.  Please don't let your image of me keep you from watching this film!

Hello David,

1. If you will read this thread, I told some "troll" to knock if off when he implied that you were a homosexual.  As I told him, I have never seen or heard any information that you have that problem.
I don't know exactly what Mark C. is thinking.

2. My post about "your violence problem" was to point out that you are not being clear.  If we are a "violent nation" then everyone, including you, must be violent.

What makes a nation a "violent" one.  Is it a history of wars?  Street crime?  Fights in bars?  Wife beating?

If it is any of the above, is there an average rate of incidents that qualifies a nation for the title?  Does the term extend to the past?  If so, how far in the past.

Is Mongolia a "violent" nation?  After all, they produced Atilla the Hun and Genghis Kahn, not to mention Timur the Lame.  
But admittedly, no real action there for several centuries.  Is their title retired?


Or, is your term merely an emotion- based vague dislike of America?

Thomas Maddux

[Oscar]

Now is this the answer to the fact that more U.S. citizens were killed in L.A. last year than in Iraq? I don't know.  
 

David,

When I was a kid the streets of LA were safe.  Two major and related problems have arisen which have developed from the 60's on.

The first is drug use.  Los Angeles is awash with drugs.  The liberals and the ACLU, (Anti Christian Liberals Union, or so it seems), have made it nearly impossible to deal with the problem.  Year after year we hear political rhetoric, but nothing is done.

Some modern societies, who have large numbers of people far poorer than our poorest, have very little trouble with drugs.  The reason is that they have a death penalty law for drug dealers.  Odd, even poverty people seem to be able to control themselves if there are consequences they respect!

Poor people, however, don't make the laws.  The reason we have such weak drug laws and such poor enforcement of existing laws is that we have so many affluent Baby Boom Liberals who are drug users.  They, however, are more sophisticated than the poor Crack and PCP users.  So, although they get their drugs from the same cartels they are rarely caught or prosecuted.

In other words, they are quite willing to let the drug trade go on so that they can have a regular supply, no matter what the consequences are in the poor communities they claim to champion.

The second is gangs.  Again, LA has always had gangs.  But prior to the 50's they were much less violent, and more concerned with getting drunk and hanging out than controlling drug sales in the areas they dominate.  

That is what is behind the high murder rates in LA and in other major urban areas as well.  They kill each other in territorial wars and revenge killings that arise from conflicts over control of the drug trade.

In addition, drug addiction is what drives most prostitution, burglary, street muggings, and most of the holdups in stores.  It is a blight on modern America.

Yet, we don't deal with it, and we are not going to deal with it real soon.  The potheads start screaming "injustice" every time an attempt is made.  And, there is some truth in what they say.  Arresting more crackheads in the ghetto does nothing to solve the problem...there is always some other kid to trap into drug use.

The root of the evil is the large number of wealthy educated "Liberals" who are regular drug users and are not about to give it up.  "Groovy man"   "If it feels good, do it"

Thomas Maddux

[faith]

f you know anyone who is disturbed, upset, confused
or otherwise conflicted about Michael Moore's
"documentary," feel free to send them this article
(URL below will take you to slate.com.). It's rather
long (6 pages, single-spaced when printed), but
readable and insightful, especially when you consider
that the author is "left-leaning" (according to
William F. Buckley, Jr., anyway).

Interesting (to me) that some people are actually
falling for this propaganda as if it were true, with
some so-called conservative fence-sitters emerging
teary-eyed from the film, convinced of its veracity!
What nonsense! Feel free to pass along!

Thanks

Article URL: http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723/

[David Mauldin]

Tom for many years I have wondered why our community seems to tolerate the crime it does.  Every few years we hear the the police cheif is cracking down on crime.  Warrents were issued, arrest made etc... then things settle down again.  It is just a cycle
that doesn't really address the problems.  I work in the poorest community of Buena Park. Yes my kids are faced with crime everyday.  Murders, drugs, you name it. their school looks like crap.  It was built in 1952 for 400 students. Yet is runs at 1000. The campus is dirty, grafitti marks everywhere. If a teacher wants to visit the campus during the weekend she better take her husband because it is a hangout for scum. Yes the kids are in danger of joining this kind of lifestyle. Yet I live in Aliso Viejo. Across the street is a public school. It is the finest public school I have ever seen. New buildings, beautiful lawns, the children have the best equipment, gymnasium, outside garden where they grow their own plants, vegetables etc.. No doubt the children in this area have somewhat stable lives at home.  Their parents are involved in their education, extracurricular activities. They probably play musical instruments, vacation out of Sate etc.. It doesn't take long to figure out which kids are more suseptable to taking the wrong paths in life.  "It's the parents responsibility!" Yes I agree.  But what do you do when they won't or are not able to take responsibility?  For the past 6 years I have volunteered my time and money to helping these kids.  I have had a "Harry Potter Book Club" one hour a week with about 50-100 students.  I have also had an "Astronomy Night" Last January, 300 people from the community showed up. (remember how hard it was to get people to attend "Bible Study") Yet any thing you do in this neighborhood is packed.  This is because the people their have no money and nothing else to do. Yet I am only one teacher who is burnt out exhausted. I have often wondered what our community would look like if the leaders would just invest some time and money themselves. I have often wondered what my school community would look like if it had an afterschool science program, sports program etc...(Did you know our Jr. high has no athletic program???)  (It did when I went to school in 76!) Why did George need 187 billion of our taxes to "...ensure good education for the Iraqi people..." Yet we constantly hear about cutbacks.  The staff at my school spends time worrying if they will be moved or pressured into quitting. If you compare the money we put into education with that of France or Germany or Norway, If you compare the prestige of the teaching proffession with that of England or Canada, for some reason we are way below their standards. Yet we have more people in prisons in proportion with our poulation than they do!  why???  No, I don't think tougher law enforcment is the only answer.

[Oscar]

Tom for many years I have wondered why our community seems to tolerate the crime it does.  Every few years we hear the the police cheif is cracking down on crime.  Warrents were issued, arrest made etc... then things settle down again.  It is just a cycle
that doesn't really address the problems.  I work in the poorest community of Buena Park. Yes my kids are faced with crime everyday.  Murders, drugs, you name it. their school looks like crap.  It was built in 1952 for 400 students. Yet is runs at 1000. The campus is dirty, grafitti marks everywhere. If a teacher wants to visit the campus during the weekend she better take her husband because it is a hangout for scum. Yes the kids are in danger of joining this kind of lifestyle. Yet I live in Aliso Viejo. Across the street is a public school. It is the finest public school I have ever seen. New buildings, beautiful lawns, the children have the best equipment, gymnasium, outside garden where they grow their own plants, vegetables etc.. No doubt the children in this area have somewhat stable lives at home.  Their parents are involved in their education, extracurricular activities. They probably play musical instruments, vacation out of Sate etc.. It doesn't take long to figure out which kids are more suseptable to taking the wrong paths in life.  "It's the parents responsibility!" Yes I agree.  But what do you do when they won't or are not able to take responsibility?  For the past 6 years I have volunteered my time and money to helping these kids.  I have had a "Harry Potter Book Club" one hour a week with about 50-100 students.  I have also had an "Astronomy Night" Last January, 300 people from the community showed up. (remember how hard it was to get people to attend "Bible Study") Yet any thing you do in this neighborhood is packed.  This is because the people their have no money and nothing else to do. Yet I am only one teacher who is burnt out exhausted. I have often wondered what our community would look like if the leaders would just invest some time and money themselves. I have often wondered what my school community would look like if it had an afterschool science program, sports program etc...(Did you know our Jr. high has no athletic program???)  (It did when I went to school in 76!) Why did George need 187 billion of our taxes to "...ensure good education for the Iraqi people..." Yet we constantly hear about cutbacks.  The staff at my school spends time worrying if they will be moved or pressured into quitting. If you compare the money we put into education with that of France or Germany or Norway, If you compare the prestige of the teaching proffession with that of England or canada for some reason we are way below their standards. Yet we have more people in prisons in perportion with our poulation than they do!  why???  No I don't think tougher law enforcment is the answer.

David,

As you know, I taught for 33 years in the LA district.  I am, (sadly), very familiar with the school conditions and social problems you describe.

When I started my teaching career in 1970 the "old order" was still in place.  By today's standards, our schools were clean, orderly, and successful.  They were not perfect, and they never were.  Just quite good.

When I retired, I was teaching in a building built in 1917.  It was run down, filthy, and very little learning was going on.

When I started, the moral breakdown of the 60's was taking hold as the indulgent druggies finished their educations and moved into society.  Teaching was one of their favorite career goals.  Now, they dominate the educational establishment of America.

These are amoral, indulgent people.  Religiously, they are either, agnostics, atheists, or new age occultists.  Morally, they are relativists.  They do not believe in fixed moral values.

So, they have solved the behavior problems of the schools by attacking the rules instead of the bad behaviors.  The results are obvious.  For example, in my district they still had PE programs.  About half of the kids simply refuse to participate...so they get an F in PE.  Year after year.  The teachers and administrators just whine about social changes and bad parents.   But they do nothing.

They believe in the fantasy that educational problems can be solved by just throwing more money at the problem.  But if you don't stop kids from destroying schoolbooks, for example, and buy more and more books for them to destroy, where's the gain?

Oh that the solution were that simple.  It is popular to compare american education, (unfavorably),  with Japan's or Europe's.  But they never mention the Paedea Project.  In the 1970's a large number of "intellectuals", (Liberals), got together and decided that it was "unfair" to channel kids that weren't succeeding academically into vocational courses.   Everyone, they said, should receive a "liberal arts education".

All over america, vocational education has been shut down!  Kids that used to leave school with marketeable skills now drop out after they turn 16.  It is a social disaster.  

Are these "liberals" willing to take the blame for what they have done?  Are they willing to change anything?  Nope.  They just whine about needing more money and go right on with their counter productive policies.

If they actually get more money, they use it to hire more folks like themselves to do the same kind of things.  During the Great Depression of the 1920's and 1930's, educational funding was so tight that virtually ALL administrative services were curtailed.  All you had was books, teachers and the local school principles.

But because of the MORALS in place in our society, the schools were orderly and produced a superior product!  Now we have an educational system that denies any basis for morals beyond personal preference...the results are there for all to see.

Thomas Maddux

[Mark C.]

David Mauldin!

  1,000 apologies for not understanding your post!  

  I thought you were talking about yourself when you mentioned homosexuality.  The reason that I did think this was because it seemed that you went out of your way to use homosexuality in your argument where it didn't seem to fit the context.

  Also, congratulations on your upcoming marriage and I pray God's richest blessing on it!!
                                                        Mark C.

[David Mauldin]

I would like to say that I appreciate Faith and her desire to encourage people to read material about Fahrenheit 9/11 but also I would encourage you to see the movie and decide for yourself.

[M2]

Michael Moore uses a simlar technique as George in that he takes things that are facts and arranges them into an alternative context in order to make a statement that is different than one would normally interprete.
....

My opinion too.

Akin to choose a doctrine and then find some random, or even relevant, verses to back up the doctrine.

The truth is to guide us.

Marcia

[al Hartman]

from the internet:
--------------------

Spider-Man 2 Conspires to Silence Michael Moore
by Scott Ott

(2004-06-30) -- Spider-Man 2 is part of "a web of deception, a conspiracy to silence" Oscar-winning documentarist Michael Moore, according to the filmmaker whose Fahrenheit 9/11 is America's current number one box office smash.

"It's not just the cynical timing of the release of Spider-Man 2," said Mr. Moore, "but the movie endorses the unilateral and so-called righteous use of power to overcome so-called evil. This is a thinly-veiled rebuttal of Fahrenheit 9/11 and the entire security plank of the Democrat National Committee platform."

Mr. Moore added that buying a ticket to Spider-Man 2 is "tantamount to voting for George Bush."
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
(the above is a work of humor   taken from:

        http://www.scrappleface.com/MT/archives/001747.html )
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

P.S.--  David, I add to Mark's congratulations upon your upcoming wedding those of Cathy and myself, with wishes for God's will in your life together...

Sincerely,
al

[David Mauldin]

Sceptic:  "The Bible is full of contradictions!"

Believer:  "Oh, could you please show me where?"

Sceptic:   "Well, I a, "I just know because a friend told me so.."

Believer:  "Have you ever read the Bible?

Sceptic  : "Well, a NO!"

Believer:  "Then how can you be sure that it is full of lies?"

Sceptic:  "Yes I guess your right, perhaps I should read the Bible and the decide for myself!"

Believer:  "Great let me know what you think!"

[M2]

Hi David,

Good point.

I neglected to mention that I have seen a good chunk of Bowling for Columbine and have not seen Fahrenheit 9/11.

I would have considered watching F9/11 if Moore had been more objective in B for C.  Sorry I cannot comment on his latest documentary.

Lord bless,
Marcia

[Oscar]

Sceptic:  "The Bible is full of contradictions!"

Believer:  "Oh, could you please show me where?"

Sceptic:   "Well, I a, "I just know because a friend told me so.."

Believer:  "Have you ever read the Bible?

Sceptic  : "Well, a NO!"

Believer:  "Then how can you be sure that it is full of lies?"

Sceptic:  "Yes I guess your right, perhaps I should read the Bible and the decide for myself!"

Believer:  "Great let me know what you think!"

Hi folks,

David seems to be saying that unless you see Moore's movie, your opinions about it are unfounded, just as the "skeptic" had unfounded opinions about the Bible.

The difference is that anyone who has been awake for the past few months already knows what Moore's movie is about and what it is intended to produce.   It is widely acknowledged, by commentators on both the Left and the Right, to be nothing more than anti-Bush propaganda.  

Both print and electronic media have been chattering about it for a few months.  Disney refused to distribute it, even though they owned it.  So Moore bought the rights and distributed it himself.

Personally, I agree with former President Clinton, President G. W. Bush and Senator John Keary...Sadaam Hussein was a supporter of terrorism and a threat to America...and we are all better off without him.

As to the movie, I'll save my nickle.

Thomas Maddux

[David Mauldin]

The movie points out that:

A conservative majority on the Supreme Court decided that Bush was our next President.

Before 9/11 Bush was on vacation 46% of the time.

The Saudi governemnt owns 7% of the U.S. Much of this money is tied into Texas oil owned by Bush and friends.

135 Saudi citizens (Many relatives of Osamin Bin Laden) were given flights out of the U.S. two days after 9/11. (U.S. citizens were grounded and many U.S. citzens were taken in for questioning about their ties to terrorist.)

Against the advise of the U.N. and many people in his cabnet own Clark ect...Bush invades Iraq on the premise that ..."The U.S. is in danger od being attacked by Saddam Hussain and his weapons of mass destruction.


Daily life in Iraq is driven into chaos.  Innocent people are killed, injured, disabled for the rest of their lives.

As of today no WMD'S are found.

As of today over 15000 Iraqi citizens are dead

11000 Iraqi soldiers dead

over 800 American soldiers dead

Only one Soldier stationed in Iraq is the son of a U.S. senator
while the vast majority of U.S. soldiers were recruited on the premise that they could elevate themselves out of a life of poverty. Many of the U.S. soldiers joined believing it would lead to acollege education.  Many U.S. soldiers believed that they would be coming home after 3 months.

All this information was already known to the American public.  All the Mr. Moore has done is make it acsessable and entertaining to the  to the general public.

[Oscar]

The movie points out that:

A conservative majority on the Supreme Court decided that Bush was our next President.

Before 9/11 Bush was on vacation 46% of the time.

The Saudi governemnt owns 7% of the U.S. Much of this money is tied into Texas oil owned by Bush and friends.

135 Saudi citizens (Many relatives of Osamin Bin Laden) were given flights out of the U.S. two days after 9/11. (U.S. citizens were grounded and many U.S. citzens were taken in for questioning about their ties to terrorist.)

Against the advise of the U.N. and many people in his cabnet own Clark ect...Bush invades Iraq on the premise that ..."The U.S. is in danger od being attacked by Saddam Hussain and his weapons of mass destruction.


Daily life in Iraq is driven into chaos.  Innocent people are killed, injured, disabled for the rest of their lives.

As of today no WMD'S are found.

As of today over 15000 Iraqi citizens are dead

11000 Iraqi soldiers dead

over 800 American soldiers dead

Only one Soldier stationed in Iraq is the son of a U.S. senator
while the vast majority of U.S. soldiers were recruited on the premise that they could elevate themselves out of a life of poverty. Many of the U.S. soldiers joined believing it would lead to acollege education.  Many U.S. soldiers believed that they would be coming home after 3 months.

All this information was already known to the American public.  All the Mr. Moore has done is make it acsessable and entertaining to the  to the general public.

Yup.  That's the way the whacky Left sees it.  Every allegation in the movie is true, no doubt about it.  

One thing Mr. Moore may be right about.  When he got up in Germany the other day and said, "Americans are the stupidest people in the world, that's why they are always smiling", he was probably thinking of his Liberal friends.

Dave,

Once you were the blind follower of George Geftakys.  You have merely changed the crowd you follow.   You are still just following the leader.

I'm not so sure your new leaders are any better than the old ones.

Thomas Maddux