Girlie-men

[Mark C.]

Hi again Shin,

  I'm very happy that you received my comments as I intended them, as a desire to be helpful.

  Yes, the Assembly certainly has given us a feeling of shared experiences that allow an ability to communicate with one another.  Unfortunately, the experiences shared were often very negative, and most so because it attacked our connection with spiritual truth.

  Re. my mention of "child molestation":  As I stated in my post, I was not making a direct analogy btwn. this and homosexuality, rather addressing the fact that you must draw moral lines somewhere (that there are some things that are good or bad).  Also, that these people say that they are "born with" this sexual desire and are helpless to resist "who they are."  I agree, of course, that child molestation is different from sex among consenting adults.

  The problem is in choosing how to draw the lines.  If we leave it up to our own subjective criteria we will fall victim to situational ethics, instead of principle.

  Budhisim will not help here, as it does not really recognize good and evil.  I was involved in eastern religion before my salvation and it led to a very deep narcissitic type of life.  It does allow for a kind of escape from conscience as one "transcends ego" but it is all an illusion that comes crashing down when the reality of who we are is impossible to dodge; life has a way of "bringing us down off our throne."

  Please pardon me as I share an example of the above paragraph.  I was living up in the Sierras and went with some friends to a place called "Hot Creek."  (No, this will not be a wild sex story  )

 It was a beautiful night and through meditation and fasting I was enjoying a wonderful feeling of peace within.  Someone was playing some music by the Rolling Stones from the album they dedicated to Satan.  I was thinking of how beautiful the music was, when this girl, who was with another group, started to scream as if she was being terrorized!

  Here's the point from this story:  I was bugged that this person interrupted my good feeling, vs. having a concern for the terrorized individual!  This is the difference between Christian morality and a subjective basis for how we choose to live our lives.  Indeed, the lack of feeling that I had for this distressed person awoke what turned out to be a very healthy stirring of guilt in me.  Love, though of course having emotion, is a concern for others that must be in "deed and truth."

  I later discovered that this person was "freaking out" because someone slipped her some LSD (Yes, I could tell you some stories about the "love generation" of the 60's).  My conscience was awakened to the fact that spirituality is not so much about inner peace, but about morality that is expressed in action.

  Though Christians may experience a great deal of inner turmoil over sin in their lives it does not necessarily mean that the "at peace with oneself" individual, who has learned to reject guilt over the same sin is in a better state.

  What does homosexuality do for my neighbor, even if they are consenting adults?  Is there no negative effects?  What of the missed opportunity to have a deep committed relationship with a woman?  Can you ever learn to live a committed life of love to a woman, having children, and all the depth such a relationship means?

  Society, for it's survival, must have the above relationship thriving, and for this we have God's endorsement.  If we love others (our society) we will choose behavior that bests serves it's health.  Though I must struggle against various inner desires, I am loving when I choose against them to serve a higher good.

  If I decided to follow my inner guide I would still live alone in some beautiful location, and in my own blissfull escapist way, let the world roll on into oblivion.  I certainly would not naturally chose to: get married and deal with kids, work hard every day, give to charity, share the Gospel, or write on this BB.

                                             God Bless,  Mark C.

 

[shinchy]

 What does homosexuality do for my neighbor, even if they are consenting adults?  Is there no negative effects?  What of the missed opportunity to have a deep committed relationship with a woman?  Can you ever learn to live a committed life of love to a woman, having children, and all the depth such a relationship means?  

Hi Mark,
Your posts certainly give me something to chew on and it could take a while to answer all of those thoughts. So I thought I'd just reply to this.

Personally, I don't think gay men have any business getting married to women. If I were a woman, I certainly would knowingly refuse to marry a gay man. And I'd certainly not be happy if I found out after he kept it from me. In this hypothetical situation, I'm sure I could forgive this person and become friends but I don't think I'll ever really know the answer to that. I don't believe it's really fair to either party involved. I have known people in this situation. I have also read Mel White's* Stranger at the Gate and he does go into the joys and heartaches of being a gay man married to a woman. He and his ex-wife had an amicable divorce and they have a better relationship as exes than they ever did as a couple.

I just don't think the idea of a "reformed" homosexual man getting married to a woman is really fair to either party. I think it's a pretty tall order for both. I don't think I could have handled it.

Shin

*Mel White worked as ghost-writer for many years in the evangelical publishing realm and his clients included Francis Schaeffer, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, and Jim and Tammy Bakker.

[shinchy]

Hi Marcia,
While I think guilt can be a useful emotion, I think it can be "educated" to the point of controlling us. Guilt seems to come natural for things such as lying, stealing, and doing things that harm other people. What people learn gets incorporporated into the guilt response as well. People affiliated with the Boston Church of Christ seem quite adept at programming guilt responses in their members. I was in a more mainstream evangelical church at the time but I think guilt got programmed there too on some level. Because of that, it's really hard for me to trust guilt, especially guilt that seems doctrinally related.

Shin

Yes, I agree with you in that guilt can be "educated" to the point of controlling us.  Sometimes we get the wrong 'education' and sometimes we are 'educated' correctly re. sin.  I use the analogy of the little Johnny who is out with his friends.  One of his friends starts throwing rocks at someone's basement windows and invites Johnny to do so.  Johnny knows it is wrong.  Johnny knows that his Dad is not around, but that it would grieve his Dad if he found out.  Johhny can choose not to throw the rocks because he loves his Dad and does not want to grieve him, or because he is afraid of how his Dad will react.  The action of throwing the rocks and destroying another's property is wrong in each scenario.

I know a family whose husband/father turned 'gay'.  After many appeals from his wife, he refuses to change his lifestyle.  That marriage is going to end up in a divorce and the young child will be left without a father.  It could have been a case of adultery with the same end result.  I find it all very sad.

Lord bless,
Marcia

Hi Marcia,
You have a good point about how guilt can be constructive as well.

The husband who turned gay - I don't know if he really turned gay. Maybe someone waved a magic wand over his head (silly me) but I suspect he was gay all along. Or maybe he really didn't know much about himself when he got married and this is one of those situations where sefl-discovery exacts a horrible price. It is sad.

I don't think someone like this has any business marrying a member of the opposite sex, especially if he knew this thing about himself all along.

The ex-gay ministry always touts dating and marriage as success but I wonder if it's more damaging in the long run.

Shin

[Mark C.]

Yes Shin,

  I do tend to ramble on in my posts.  Thanks for being so good natured with your responses.

  I won't say much in this post, but to only clarify one point by means of asking a question:
   What would you advise someone who felt their sexuality was an unchangable part of their being and that sexual desire was for children?  Would it be fair if this individual tried to change his feelings and attempt to develop normal sexual desires?

  Again, I'm not attempting to say that homosexuality is the same as in the above question, only that both have sexual desires that they feel control their lives and are inseperable parts of their identity.

                                        God Bless,  Mark C.

[Oscar]

Shin,

In your reply to Mark, you are trying to have your cake and eat it too.  Your ideas on morality are a perfect example of Romans 2:15, "...they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing ore else defending them"!

This is exactly what you are doing.  Moral condemnation of other's behavior, while excusing your own.

Either moral law objectively exists, or all moralities are equal.  You merely dislike child abusers, but their acts are not wrong...nothing is wrong...or, for that matter, right.

You know that is not true.

Thomas Maddux

Tom,
You're engaging me in that either/or logical fallacy and the way you're using it is very offensive. Here is an example of what's offending me: "You merely dislike child abusers, but their acts are not wrong...nothing is wrong...or, for that matter, right." Yes, I do seriously dislike child abusers and I find what they do to be horrible, damaging, and wrong. Also, while I was never a victim of child molestation, I did have a step-father who often beat and verbally abused me until I turned 16. And yes, I will condemn what he did as wrong even though I understand he grew up that way. And yes, I understand people do some pretty forked up things to other people because of what happened to them but my sympathy is more for the victims. So excuse me if I'm not objective concerning this example.

The esteemed Zen teacher Thich Nat Han, would point out the perpetrators or moral wrongs are victims as well. While I have a hard time wrapping my mind around that one, I respect this view because I understand it is a step in forgiving my enemies.

So I digressed. I think what Mark's point to me was that despite my rejection of morality as defined by the Bible, we agreed on some things were moral. I agreed on that but maintained my disagreement with the idea that homosexuality was immoral.


Shin

Shin,

You are mistaken.  The fallacy of false dichotomy, (either/or) is committed when a statement purports to present equally exhaustive alternatives, but other alternatives exist.  "Everyone is either a Democrat or a Republican" would be a statement that commits this fallacy, in that there are other alternatives.

I said that either moral standards objectively exist, or they only have subjective existence.  There are, as far as I know, no other possibilities.  It is not possible for something to objectively exist and not objectively exist at the same time.

So, no fallacy has been committed.

In fact, when you go to picking and choosing moral standards, as you are doing, all you are really doing is expressing your subjective preferences.  

If you can do that, why can't a pedophile?  You say you don't like child abuse, but some folks enjoy it.  So, why are they wrong?

Some folks try to use, "It's wrong to hurt others" as a "bottom line" moral standard.  So, what makes that true?  

My point is that in your attempt to say that homosexuality is ok, you are driven to irrationality to maintain your position.

In one of your posts you state that the Buddhist 8 fold path seems like a good way to live.  Odd that a fellow who says he could not continue to resist his desires praises a method for eliminating desire.  Desire is the Buddhist "root of all evil."

A friend of mine served for three years in a Buddhist country, Nepal.  He and his wife were missionaries who served as health and agricultural consultants in a village three days walk from the nearest road.  The religious and social traditions of these folks determine their lives almost completely.

Once he had learned the language he discovered that the men in his area did not know what homosexuality was!  They had never heard of it.

Doesn't do much for the "I was born this way" claim.

BTW, I think you are right about one thing...men who are conflicted about their sexuality should not get married.  It is better to stay single and not bring such severe problems into a marriage.

Thomas Maddux

[M2]

Hi Marcia,
You have a good point about how guilt can be constructive as well.

The husband who turned gay - I don't know if he really turned gay. Maybe someone waved a magic wand over his head (silly me) but I suspect he was gay all along. Or maybe he really didn't know much about himself when he got married and this is one of those situations where sefl-discovery exacts a horrible price. It is sad.

I don't think someone like this has any business marrying a member of the opposite sex, especially if he knew this thing about himself all along.

The ex-gay ministry always touts dating and marriage as success but I wonder if it's more damaging in the long run.

Shin

Shin,

Thank you for being such a good sport in this discussion.  You are probably on information overload.

Having spent 21+ years (almost half my lifetime) in a cult-like environment, I am overly sensitive to 'brainwashing' tactics now that I am out.  George was good.  He would say things like, "You know people say that we are brainwashed, but you know I need my brain washed." And guess who was going to do it.  Another favourite of his, "We don't want to steal sheep from other gatherings.  You guys go out and preach the gospel and bring people in."  So we were so noble we did not want to steal, and we were not going to let others resort to the ignoble deed of stealing us either.  We had our pat answers and attitudes.

You said, "The husband who turned gay - I don't know if he really turned gay. Maybe someone waved a magic wand over his head (silly me) but I suspect he was gay all along. Or maybe he really didn't know much about himself when he got married and this is one of those situations where sefl-discovery exacts a horrible price. It is sad."
This sounds suspiciously like the work of a 'brainwashing' master.  Almost all gay people, once they succumb to homosexual activity, say that they were probably gay all along, but didn't much about themselves until now.  This is indoctrination and not about self-discovery.  The only thing about self to be discovered is that we are all sinners, but there is hope from God for the sinner.

I respect your choice to remain unmarried to a female person, as I believe is best for the one struggling with pornography too.  But I also agree that if/when you were to have 'victory' (for lack of a better word) over this passion, then why not?

Lord bless,
Marcia

[shinchy]

With child molesters, they could be simply mentally or chemically unbalanced. Some psychotic killers are. I understand this though I'm still not very sympathetic towards them. Their condition may cause them to harm others. I'm not going to include homosexuality here since the APA does not consider it a mental illness now.

Also, child molesters have been underneath the "cultural radar" for such a long time. Like adulterers, theses people's deeds were often ignored and others would make excuses for them, despite thatt society often termed such acts revolting. I don't think societal revulsion really ever stopped anyone; it just caused them to do these things clandestinely.

I don't think I ever brought the "enjoyement" issue into this discussions. People who enjoy hurting others are a bunch of sadistic forks. I'll probably get myself into some more hot water here, but I don't always do things because it feels good. I certainly would have flunked out of one of my final semesters as an undergrad if I caved into the depression I was dealing with at the time. With all the papers and final projects I was responsible for at the time, I almost wanted to say fork it and not do them. But admission to graduate school (as well as finishing the course with a BA) were at stake. So I bit the bullet and did the things necessary for my grades (which were very good that semester).

[delila]

With child molesters, they could be simply mentally or chemically unbalanced. Some psychotic killers are. I understand this though I'm still not very sympathetic towards them. Their condition may cause them to harm others. I'm not going to include homosexuality here since the APA does not consider it a mental illness now.

Also, child molesters have been underneath the "cultural radar" for such a long time. Like adulterers, theses people's deeds were often ignored and others would make excuses for them, despite thatt society often termed such acts revolting. I don't think societal revulsion really ever stopped anyone; it just caused them to do these things clandestinely.

I don't think I ever brought the "enjoyement" issue into this discussions. People who enjoy hurting others are a bunch of sadistic forks. I'll probably get myself into some more hot water here, but I don't always do things because it feels good. I certainly would have flunked out of one of my final semesters as an undergrad if I caved into the depression I was dealing with at the time. With all the papers and final projects I was responsible for at the time, I almost wanted to say fork it and not do them. But admission to graduate school (as well as finishing the course with a BA) were at stake. So I bit the bullet and did the things necessary for my grades (which were very good that semester).

Shin,
I admire how even-headed you are.  Polite too.  I will take note and aspire to that.  Your point about child molesters being under the radar is well made.  I will also add, if I might that because children and women were considered (are considered) property in many cultures, uncluding many homes in Canada and the US (as well as other countries), this abuse is under-reported and under-punished and altogether dealt with poorly.  Often the abused will be blamed, told they asked for it, though they are children often or women who (regardless of what they wear or don't wear) can not help that some pervert decides to exert his force on her.  I think (and no stats on this on hand for you doubters) that homosexuals have also been beaten and humilated because 'real men' - those red necked meat heads who consider their one working member to define them completely - wish to make a statement about their power.  Sometimes I listen to that song "Imagine" and cry.  If our species evolves into something healthy, I wonder how it will choose to define itself?
d

[shinchy]

I admire how even-headed you are.  Polite too.  I will take note and aspire to that.

I will also add, if I might that because children and women were considered (are considered) property in many cultures, uncluding many homes in Canada and the US (as well as other countries), this abuse is under-reported and under-punished and altogether dealt with poorly.  Often the abused will be blamed, told they asked for it, though they are children often or women who (regardless of what they wear or don't wear) can not help that some pervert decides to exert his force on her.

Delila,
Thanks. I've learned how handle myself with a certain amount of grace over the years. When I was a kid, I was more impulsive and I had a lot of temper outbursts. The temper's still here but I've learned that I'm less effective during an outburst, however justified I may feel.

As you pointed out, the blame is often placed on the victim. When I was in elementary school, I remember being made to feel like I was responsible for the behavior of the kids who bullied me for being a "sissy." I wanted nothing to do with these kids yet they went out of their way, either alone or in groups, to make themselves look good by hurting someone they percieved as weaker. Somehow, I don't think think using less hand gestures, getting the prance out of my walk, or talking less girly would have appeased them. When I was in the sixth grade, it got to the point to where I could no longer run or hid so I had to hit back. While someone might tell me, "Good for you," I shouldn't have had to strike back. Getting picked on followed by having to fight back only detracted from what I had to learn those years. I wonder how much prejudice children assimilate from their parents along with the blaming the victim mentality. Unfortunately, it only gets worse as people get older.

As an adult, I've been lucky enough to never have been a victim of a hate crime. SDPD has kept that number pretty low in San Diego because there isn't that blaming of the victim from the police.

I kind of feel like I digressed somehow with this, but I never "asked" to be targeted by others in any situtation that was abusive. We ex-assembly-ites should definitely know better when hearing the story of someone who's been a victim. Listening first (instead of jumping to some judgment) would go a long way.

- Shin

[delila]

Shin,
Bullies, yes.  I think I cried nearly every day from grade one to grade 8 or 9 coming home on the bus.  We were 'white trash' where I was raised.  My parents never considered raising children any different from raising pigs so we were fair game and since the picking-on continued at home, our parents were no help - although I must say that my mother did shoot a dog once that bit me in our kitchen ( wasn't our dog).
Anyhow, I was/am very careful to advocate for my daughter who is going into grade four this year.  I've only had to do it a couple times but I've also taught her and still continue to teach her some assertiveness so that she doesn't have to always take the victim's role.  However, that being said, I always think of the best things to do or say after the fact when I'm on the spot alone.  I married a bully and by the end of this year the divorce should be granted but before we were separated for the last time I got this job at a wonderful pro-family non-profit agency only to find out a couple of months into the job that one of my co-workers was a bully and i was her favorite target.  It gutted me.  I went through a year of counselling before I could get my 'legs' under me.  A strange experience that I still don't pretend to fully understand but again, I think it rang all the right bells for me: bullied as a child, bullied in the assembly, married a bully and then working with one.  It was enough to send me into temporary retirement.  This week I interviewed for my first full time job prospect since.  Follow up interview today.  Confidence is everything.  Wish me luck
d

[shinchy]

Hi Delila,
I definitely wish you the best in this interview. And I wish there are a good group of people in this job, among other things.

A few years back, a friend who grew up in the same neighborhood as I did in the sixth grade told me that one of my most vicious bullies wound up in prison.

My former step-father, whom I've mentioned in another post, died seven years ago around 55 years of age. It certainly was one of those case where one feels sorry someone's dead but there are no tears.

Thankfully, I never had to deal with any of those people after high school. However, there was a certain sense of closure to hearing about these two people.

- Shin

[Mark C.]

With child molesters, they could be simply mentally or chemically unbalanced. Some psychotic killers are. I understand this though I'm still not very sympathetic towards them. Their condition may cause them to harm others. I'm not going to include homosexuality here since the APA does not consider it a mental illness now.

 Hi Shin,

  I also am mystified as to why someone would have the sexual urges that a child molester has, but then again I'm mystified about some of what goes on within my own psyche.  I grew up with a very strong attraction to women, but was raised to control my urges; so much so that I lived through my hippie (free love) years without ever losing my virginity!  For some reason I just knew that it would be wrong to have sex without a loving commitment, even when I was as high as a kite!

  How much was because of my environment, or what was due to genetics?  It is my opinion that we all are born with certain proclivities, and that our environment can either prepare us to stand against character weakness or to yield to it.  As a Christian I understand that I inherited a sinful nature.  

  I have heard it said that the only way a child molestor can be changed is by new birth.  Of course, I am not a psychologist and have not studied this issue.

  That APA changed their views on homosexuality, not due to science, but on the basis of homosexuals who were prominent in the group.  I say "science" but I don't think there ever was really a scientific understanding of homosexuality--- as in biological one.

  The APA had a member publish a paper where he contended that sex between minors and adults is not necessarily a negative thing.  The reason he said this is that in his evaluation these young people seemed to grow up psychologically healthy in most cases.  Progressive thinking or slippery slope?  It is clear that the author of the paper had an agenda to break down a moral distinction to help advance his own perverse desire.

  This is why I keep asking the question:  How do we draw lines?  And if we have no objective criteria in which to draw lines; how far do we go in judging a behavior as bad?

  It seems to me we need a clear moral compass as provided for us in the Bible.  

  This is not to say that all those who accept the Biblical standard will live up to it.  We know all too well the hell hole of hypocrisy that religion can be, but to reject the Bible because there are monstrous phairisees in the world is to totally misunderstand the loving purpose of God.


  I know that a faith destroyed can not be put back together again by my persuasion, but if I can possibly stir a little desire to keep an open mind on your part then God can still get through to your heart.  We think that God rejects us because of who we are, and our inability to change ourselves; no wonder, with such a belief, we just give up!
 
 I earnestly believe that God understands all your pain, need, and desires.  I also believe there is a special place in God's heart for those devastated by false religion, and who were abused as children; He will never rest until He brings you back to Himself!

                                                     God Bless,  Mark C.  

[David Mauldin]

  Tom back in 1983 I read "What Every Christian Should know About Homosexuality" by Tim LaHaye. Mr. LaHaye shows us that gays are screwed up and lost people.  It states over and over that gay relationships don't last.  "A gay man will go through thousands of sexual encouters through-out his whole life." Tom  I have friends who are gay. I go to a "Gay Church" The materials you have read on gays are mostly from the Evangelical right. These studies on homosexuals almost always focused on the "fringe" types.  The guys who are socially and mentally scewed up..Yet If you had observed the ceremonies that took place in San Francisco you would have heard announcments,  couples who were commited...together for 10, 15, 20, 30, 40, 50, years!!!! i am not saying all gay relationships do last.  Imagine for a moment if you were in a relationship condemed by society, the church, your family how long would it last? Yet lets focus on people who are o.k. with themselves.  Who are comfortable with themselves. These are the people who need to be the focus of gay studies. Tom, how many gay people are you really friends with?  Do you really know any one who is gay???  Who is talking through his hat?

[delila]

Mark:
I read: "This is why I keep asking the question:  How do we draw lines?  And if we have no objective criteria in which to draw lines; how far do we go in judging a behavior as bad?" And I think: Wow, that's why we were put here by that almighty creator: to judge all the bad behaviours.  Now I can die knowing that the eternal emptyness in my heart is completely filled.
d

[Mark C.]

Hi Delila !

  I will take your question as an honest one and try to answer. (Even though I know you are being sarcastic).

  As a parent you probably recognize that you need to instruct your children re. what is right and wrong.  Those who grow up without a conscience end up becoming sociopaths; these become very destructive in society.

  Entire cultures can become sociopathic if they are unable to discern between what is right and what is wrong.  This is what happened to certain O.T. nations where they offered children as living sacrafices.

  As I said in my previous post, just knowing a righteous standard doesn't mean much; indeed it can lead to a hideous monstrosity like the Assembly, if one's conscience isn't honest in applying the standard to oneself first.

  The law is not to be used as a bludgeon, in an attempt to bully and control others, rather it is a means to get the log out of our own eyes first.

  I understand the last paragraph was your experience in the Assembly, and this is why you are so angry.  You have a right to be angry, and you need to know that God is angry at the way you were treated as well.  Jesus is just as much against what the Assembly practiced as He was in his severe denunciations of the Pharisees.

  I am trying, probably very poorly, to convey as best that I can, how terribly sorry that I am for how you were treated.  I do not view you as some enemy to win an argument against, but, if I could, someone who wants to extend a loving hand of help.

  As much as my heart breaks for you it is nothing compared to how God's was pierced to bring you close to Him.
                                           God Bless,  Mark C.