Girlie-men

[Arthur]

 Tom back in 1983 I read "What Every Christian Should know About Homosexuality" by Tim LaHaye. Mr. LaHaye shows us that gays are screwed up and lost people.  It states over and over that gay relationships don't last.  "A gay man will go through thousands of sexual encouters through-out his whole life." Tom  I have friends who are gay. I go to a "Gay Church" The materials you have read on gays are mostly from the Evangelical right. These studies on homosexuals almost always focused on the "fringe" types.  The guys who are socially and mentally scewed up..Yet If you had observed the ceremonies that took place in San Francisco you would have heard announcments,  couples who were commited...together for 10, 15, 20, 30, 40, 50, years!!!! i am not saying all gay relationships do last.  Imagine for a moment if you were in a relationship condemed by society, the church, your family how long would it last? Yet lets focus on people who are o.k. with themselves.  Who are comfortable with themselves. These are the people who need to be the focus of gay studies. Tom, how many gay people are you really friends with?  Do you really know any one who is gay???  Who is talking through his hat?

From http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2003/jul/03071405.html
"...a new study has found that homosexual partnerships last, on average, only one-and-a-half years."

"It also found that men in homosexual relationships have an average of eight partners a year outside their main partnership, adding more evidence to the "stereotype" that homosexuals tend to be promiscuous."

[David Mauldin]

Arthur, LifeSite is a website that is an extremely onesided "traditional Judeo-Christian values" outreach to women who are considering an abortion.  Gee I wonder what their predisposition is towards gays?  Why not go to  an objective site that let's you look at both sides of the issue and decide for yourself.  Oh! No! Critical Thinking!!!
http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=99213785

[Oscar]

 Tom back in 1983 I read "What Every Christian Should know About Homosexuality" by Tim LaHaye. Mr. LaHaye shows us that gays are screwed up and lost people.

Well, they have that much right!

It states over and over that gay relationships don't last.  "A gay man will go through thousands of sexual encouters through-out his whole life." Tom  I have friends who are gay. I go to a "Gay Church"
The materials you have read on gays are mostly from the Evangelical right. These studies on homosexuals almost always focused on the "fringe" types.

David, just how would you know what I have read???

So, you think UCLA is a right wing Evangelical organization.  Thanks for letting me know...they had me completely fooled.  And here all these years I thought it was a secular university.   The first study of Homosexual behavior I read was done there.  It was a huge study tracking several thousand homosexual men over several years.  All the study results I have read came from secular universities.  They all say pretty much the same thing.

I have never read any study results done by an evangelical organization.   Could you link me to some?  You seem to have done very careful analysis of the methodology of these studies.  

The guys who are socially and mentally scewed up..Yet If you had observed the ceremonies that took place in San Francisco you would have heard announcments,  couples who were commited...together for 10, 15, 20, 30, 40, 50, years!!!! i am not saying all gay relationships do last.  Imagine for a moment if you were in a relationship condemed by society, the church, your family how long would it last? Yet lets focus on people who are o.k. with themselves.

So if someone enjoys his evil conduct, that makes it ok?  Hitler was "ok with himself"  So were his henchmen.
So, by your "logic" Hitler was ok.  Right.  

Before you start complaining that I am not being nice to you...notice that Hitler satisfies your criteria of "OK".

 Who are comfortable with themselves. These are the people who need to be the focus of gay studies. Tom, how many gay people are you really friends with?

I choose my friends carefully Dave.

 Do you really know any one who is gay???  Who is talking through his hat?

Actually Dave, you know very little about me.  I worked with homo's for years.  I was a teacher you know, and women's PE departments usually have some.

I have known some that had been "together" for a long time.  So what?  My aunt is 96 years old, and smoked for 75 years.  Would you say that that proves cigarrettes don't cause cancer? (which she has never had).  No, you would say that there are exceptions to what is true of large statistical samples.  

Get it?

We are talking about the folks who put on "Gay Pride" demonstrations and parades.  The perform sexual perversions on flatbed trucks for the benefit of the crowds.  They drug themselves and go to "bathhouses" where they have sex with multiple partners.
But, thats "OK", as long as they are comfortable with themselves.

"And although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them." (Romans 1:32)

Maybe its not as OK as they think.

Thomas Maddux

[Oscar]

Arthur, LifeSite is a website that is an extremely onesided "traditional Judeo-Christian values" outreach to women who are considering an abortion.  Gee I wonder what their predisposition is towards gays?  Why not go to  an objective site that let's you look at both sides of the issue and decide for yourself.  Oh! No! Critical Thinking!!!
http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=99213785

David,

People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

I went to the link that Arthur gave.  Did you read it?  I don't think so...look at what it says:

The study is based on the health records of young Dutch homosexuals by Dr. Maria Xiridou of the Amsterdam Municipal Health Service and published in the May issue of the journal AIDS. It also found that men in homosexual relationships have an average of eight partners a year outside their main partnership, adding more evidence to the "stereotype" that homosexuals tend to be promiscuous.

Did you read it this time Dave???   It says the study was conducted by Dr Maria Xiridou of the AMSTERDAM MUNICIPAL HEALTH SERVICE.  I wonder if they know that they are a one sided right wing evangelical organization.

Then you go on to mock Arthur about HIS lack of critical thinking.

"Professing to be wise, they became fools."  (Romans 1:22)

Thomas Maddux

[delila]

Hi Delila !

  I will take your question as an honest one and try to answer. (Even though I know you are being sarcastic).

  As a parent you probably recognize that you need to instruct your children re. what is right and wrong.  Those who grow up without a conscience end up becoming sociopaths; these become very destructive in society.

  Entire cultures can become sociopathic if they are unable to discern between what is right and what is wrong.  This is what happened to certain O.T. nations where they offered children as living sacrafices.

  As I said in my previous post, just knowing a righteous standard doesn't mean much; indeed it can lead to a hideous monstrosity like the Assembly, if one's conscience isn't honest in applying the standard to oneself first.

  The law is not to be used as a bludgeon, in an attempt to bully and control others, rather it is a means to get the log out of our own eyes first.

  I understand the last paragraph was your experience in the Assembly, and this is why you are so angry.  You have a right to be angry, and you need to know that God is angry at the way you were treated as well.  Jesus is just as much against what the Assembly practiced as He was in his severe denunciations of the Pharisees.

  I am trying, probably very poorly, to convey as best that I can, how terribly sorry that I am for how you were treated.  I do not view you as some enemy to win an argument against, but, if I could, someone who wants to extend a loving hand of help.

  As much as my heart breaks for you it is nothing compared to how God's was pierced to bring you close to Him.
                                           God Bless,  Mark C.

 

Hi Mark,
Sarcasm, me?  Really? Seriously, I have two children too and "No." is quickly tuned out (whether you beat your kids or not - and I don't", what I have found is that re-direction works wonders.  That plug in may look pretty interesting to my two year old, so I stick a safety cover on it and direct him to his kitchen set or his plastic tool bench, play with him a while (he loves 'workin' hard!') or read him a book.  I do tell him what is hot and what can produce an owch but I dwell on preoccupying him with what is inherently more interesting, getting on with life - or play which currently is his life right now, his work, and yes, he does work hard.  I wonder why the focus on all the 'do nots' in Christianity.  I wonder if the Christain prides him/herself on what he/she does not do, on moral superiority implied in down-looking conversations about the unpatriotic or the sex-defyers or the norm-defyers, as though there were a prize for being 'normal' in the Western Context.  I wonder why there isn't a focus instead on, say, what I'm doing personally to make my community a better place and hence hoping the world feels the ripple effect.  That's where I take my leave of simply flinging verses and bible knowledge or even stats on sociological studies (and yeah, I have a degree in that but it hasn't made my life a whole lot better - it's a piece of paper, need to blow your nose?).  I think it's good to focus on what I can do, and it begins in my own home and back yard.  Getting consensus on 'moral' issues such as sexual pleasuring techniques and 'approved' participants won't make this board morally superior or correct, or powerful in any sense of the word.
d

[Oscar]

Hi Delila !

  I will take your question as an honest one and try to answer. (Even though I know you are being sarcastic).

  As a parent you probably recognize that you need to instruct your children re. what is right and wrong.  Those who grow up without a conscience end up becoming sociopaths; these become very destructive in society.

  Entire cultures can become sociopathic if they are unable to discern between what is right and what is wrong.  This is what happened to certain O.T. nations where they offered children as living sacrafices.

  As I said in my previous post, just knowing a righteous standard doesn't mean much; indeed it can lead to a hideous monstrosity like the Assembly, if one's conscience isn't honest in applying the standard to oneself first.

  The law is not to be used as a bludgeon, in an attempt to bully and control others, rather it is a means to get the log out of our own eyes first.

  I understand the last paragraph was your experience in the Assembly, and this is why you are so angry.  You have a right to be angry, and you need to know that God is angry at the way you were treated as well.  Jesus is just as much against what the Assembly practiced as He was in his severe denunciations of the Pharisees.

  I am trying, probably very poorly, to convey as best that I can, how terribly sorry that I am for how you were treated.  I do not view you as some enemy to win an argument against, but, if I could, someone who wants to extend a loving hand of help.

  As much as my heart breaks for you it is nothing compared to how God's was pierced to bring you close to Him.
                                           God Bless,  Mark C.

 

Hi Mark,
Sarcasm, me?  Really? Seriously, I have two children too and "No." is quickly tuned out (whether you beat your kids or not - and I don't", what I have found is that re-direction works wonders.  That plug in may look pretty interesting to my two year old, so I stick a safety cover on it and direct him to his kitchen set or his plastic tool bench, play with him a while (he loves 'workin' hard!') or read him a book.  I do tell him what is hot and what can produce an owch but I dwell on preoccupying him with what is inherently more interesting, getting on with life - or play which currently is his life right now, his work, and yes, he does work hard.  I wonder why the focus on all the 'do nots' in Christianity.  I wonder if the Christain prides him/herself on what he/she does not do, on moral superiority implied in down-looking conversations about the unpatriotic or the sex-defyers or the norm-defyers, as though there were a prize for being 'normal' in the Western Context.  I wonder why there isn't a focus instead on, say, what I'm doing personally to make my community a better place and hence hoping the world feels the ripple effect.  That's where I take my leave of simply flinging verses and bible knowledge or even stats on sociological studies (and yeah, I have a degree in that but it hasn't made my life a whole lot better - it's a piece of paper, need to blow your nose?).  I think it's good to focus on what I can do, and it begins in my own home and back yard.  Getting consensus on 'moral' issues such as sexual pleasuring techniques and 'approved' participants won't make this board morally superior or correct, or powerful in any sense of the word.
d

Delilah,

Have you ever heard of trying to have your cake and eat it too?  

That is what you are doing in this, and other, posts.  On the one hand you are critical of the "down looking" statements made by Christians.  

In order to "look down" one must have a standard of measurement.  So, you don't think the Bible gives as a good standard.  After all, you can tear out the pages and blow your nose on them.

You also claim that Sociological studies are worthless.  You can blow your nose on them too.  (They don't tell us what we should do, but they do give us a good idea of what people actually do. They are being referred to to show that homo's are very dysfunctional people.)

So now, Delilah, you have rejected religion and experience as sources of values.  What do you propose to replace them with?

Looks to me like you intend to follow the dictates of Delilah. (With a little help grom Gloria Steinham)  I understand.  That is all that is left.  

You criticize our (my) "simply flinging verses and Bible knowledge."  What I am doing is pointing out that your position is completely predictable in the Bible.  In fact, You, Shin, and Dave M. have provided quite a bit of evidence for the reliablilty of the Bible.

You condemn other's moral judgements, then you turn around and make them yourself!  But I understand, you have the same desire that all of fallen humanity has always had:

"...you will be like God, knowing good and evil."  (Genesis 2:5)

There are two problems with this Delilah.  First, The values you advocate are nothing more than the Biblical values with a little editing to allow sexual indulgence.

The other problem is that your subjectivisation of values makes all values the same.  You want to make your community a "better" place.  Better according to who?  Car thieves?  Pedophiles?  Members of the Taliban?  Pol Pot?  

There are lots of folks out there with their own take on values.  You seem to like Christian values with the sexual morality strained out.  But by rejecting the basis of those values, you undermine them.

How will you teach your kids not to cheat, lie, steal, and abuse other people if the only basis for such ideas is unpleasant consequences?

After teaching hundreds of kids for 33 years, I can assure you that kids raised this way come to this conclusion: "I can do whatever I want to as long as I don't get caught."

So...here comes three strikes, corruption on the courts, corruption in the law enforcement organizations.   If there is nothing really wrong with anything, why not just do whatever you want to?

Any society, or family, that is based on that kind of thinking is in trouble.

Thomas Maddux

[shinchy]

You criticize our (my) "simply flinging verses and Bible knowledge."  What I am doing is pointing out that your position is completely predictable in the Bible.  In fact, You, Shin, and Dave M. have provided quite a bit of evidence for the reliablilty of the Bible.

I know you've heard us but have you ever taken the time to actually listen to us? Your posts always seem to be on the offensive/pre-emptive strike and you seem so determined to beat us down with the force of your arguments, which seem to be a little too stacked. A couple of other people do this as well, so I'm not singling you out. Other people have presented their disagreements with our positions in a very clear but civil manner so keep in mind I'm not using this particular post as a vehicle to attack your views.

So if it makes you happy, you're right*. So why all the energy in trying to prove you're right.

*sarcasm on the tone of Sheryl Crow's "If it Makes You Happy"

[delila]

Hi Delila !

  I will take your question as an honest one and try to answer. (Even though I know you are being sarcastic).

  As a parent you probably recognize that you need to instruct your children re. what is right and wrong.  Those who grow up without a conscience end up becoming sociopaths; these become very destructive in society.

  Entire cultures can become sociopathic if they are unable to discern between what is right and what is wrong.  This is what happened to certain O.T. nations where they offered children as living sacrafices.

  As I said in my previous post, just knowing a righteous standard doesn't mean much; indeed it can lead to a hideous monstrosity like the Assembly, if one's conscience isn't honest in applying the standard to oneself first.

  The law is not to be used as a bludgeon, in an attempt to bully and control others, rather it is a means to get the log out of our own eyes first.

  I understand the last paragraph was your experience in the Assembly, and this is why you are so angry.  You have a right to be angry, and you need to know that God is angry at the way you were treated as well.  Jesus is just as much against what the Assembly practiced as He was in his severe denunciations of the Pharisees.

  I am trying, probably very poorly, to convey as best that I can, how terribly sorry that I am for how you were treated.  I do not view you as some enemy to win an argument against, but, if I could, someone who wants to extend a loving hand of help.

  As much as my heart breaks for you it is nothing compared to how God's was pierced to bring you close to Him.
                                           God Bless,  Mark C.

 

Hi Mark,
Sarcasm, me?  Really? Seriously, I have two children too and "No." is quickly tuned out (whether you beat your kids or not - and I don't", what I have found is that re-direction works wonders.  That plug in may look pretty interesting to my two year old, so I stick a safety cover on it and direct him to his kitchen set or his plastic tool bench, play with him a while (he loves 'workin' hard!') or read him a book.  I do tell him what is hot and what can produce an owch but I dwell on preoccupying him with what is inherently more interesting, getting on with life - or play which currently is his life right now, his work, and yes, he does work hard.  I wonder why the focus on all the 'do nots' in Christianity.  I wonder if the Christain prides him/herself on what he/she does not do, on moral superiority implied in down-looking conversations about the unpatriotic or the sex-defyers or the norm-defyers, as though there were a prize for being 'normal' in the Western Context.  I wonder why there isn't a focus instead on, say, what I'm doing personally to make my community a better place and hence hoping the world feels the ripple effect.  That's where I take my leave of simply flinging verses and bible knowledge or even stats on sociological studies (and yeah, I have a degree in that but it hasn't made my life a whole lot better - it's a piece of paper, need to blow your nose?).  I think it's good to focus on what I can do, and it begins in my own home and back yard.  Getting consensus on 'moral' issues such as sexual pleasuring techniques and 'approved' participants won't make this board morally superior or correct, or powerful in any sense of the word.
d

Delilah,

Have you ever heard of trying to have your cake and eat it too?  

That is what you are doing in this, and other, posts.  On the one hand you are critical of the "down looking" statements made by Christians.  

In order to "look down" one must have a standard of measurement.  So, you don't think the Bible gives as a good standard.  After all, you can tear out the pages and blow your nose on them.

You also claim that Sociological studies are worthless.  You can blow your nose on them too.  (They don't tell us what we should do, but they do give us a good idea of what people actually do. They are being referred to to show that homo's are very dysfunctional people.)

So now, Delilah, you have rejected religion and experience as sources of values.  What do you propose to replace them with?

Looks to me like you intend to follow the dictates of Delilah. (With a little help grom Gloria Steinham)  I understand.  That is all that is left.  

You criticize our (my) "simply flinging verses and Bible knowledge."  What I am doing is pointing out that your position is completely predictable in the Bible.  In fact, You, Shin, and Dave M. have provided quite a bit of evidence for the reliablilty of the Bible.

You condemn other's moral judgements, then you turn around and make them yourself!  But I understand, you have the same desire that all of fallen humanity has always had:

"...you will be like God, knowing good and evil."  (Genesis 2:5)

There are two problems with this Delilah.  First, The values you advocate are nothing more than the Biblical values with a little editing to allow sexual indulgence.

The other problem is that your subjectivisation of values makes all values the same.  You want to make your community a "better" place.  Better according to who?  Car thieves?  Pedophiles?  Members of the Taliban?  Pol Pot?  

There are lots of folks out there with their own take on values.  You seem to like Christian values with the sexual morality strained out.  But by rejecting the basis of those values, you undermine them.

How will you teach your kids not to cheat, lie, steal, and abuse other people if the only basis for such ideas is unpleasant consequences?

After teaching hundreds of kids for 33 years, I can assure you that kids raised this way come to this conclusion: "I can do whatever I want to as long as I don't get caught."

So...here comes three strikes, corruption on the courts, corruption in the law enforcement organizations.   If there is nothing really wrong with anything, why not just do whatever you want to?

Any society, or family, that is based on that kind of thinking is in trouble.

Thomas Maddux

ugg!
d

[al Hartman]

   There is a spiritual song that was sung by slaves in the cotton fields of the American South in pre-Civil War years.  It proclaimed "Nobody knows the trouble I see.  Nobody knows but Jesus."  Pat Boone followed it about a century later with his hit, "You Got Me Singin' the Blues."

   It is natural for us to take the position that [1] Nobody understands me, [2] nobody really cares, and [3] nobody has suffered as much as I have suffered.

   Well, [1] it is true that none of us fully understands another, but in our complaint we tend to confuse understanding with appreciating.  We don't have to understand each other to appreciate each other.  I don't have to share your perspective in order to appreciate that you have a viewpoint that is uniquely yours-- and I for one do appreciate that your way of looking at things is uniquely yours, whether or not you are immersed in some general trend of thought.  It is the uniqueness of you as an individual that demands I not write you off as a mental clone.  I choose to address you as a person rather than as a member of the collective.

   [2] It seems apparent to me that the reason people are posting here, on either side of any argument, is that they do care.  What they care about and how much they care, may be in doubt, but that they care appears evident.  I have a new saying for people who stress themselves out about how others treat them:  You need to unwhine!  All the petty, pathetic sniveling about how unfairly the other party regards me has got to go!  Does anyone here actually believe that one of us can change the opinion of another?  I think not.  So let us each state his/her case, as objectively as possible, and stop fretting over whether and how it is received.
   I have followed this thread closely enough to believe that, while we each have some personal stake in our arguments, for the most part we each wish the other well.  (If I have misjudged you, and you really do hate someone here, please forgive me. )
   Motives here vary, according to beliefs personally embraced.  Some appear to want themselves, and others, to be understood while others seek to explain principles that will lead to deeper self-understanding.  To draw a distinction between Christians and unbelievers seems too simplistic terminology, although we are probably all aware that Jesus Christ is the dividing line between schools of thought.

   [3] Respect, and lack thereof, is a major player in such considerations.  Unless I extend myself to the point of appreciating (as described above) the individuality of another, it is impossible that I will respect him/her.  Key to this discussion is that right this moment the reader is concerned with how my message is being received by those who oppose his/her view.  My Brother, my Sister, my Friend, I am addressing YOU.
   No one can possibly realize the degree to which you have personally suffered just because you are you.  But in like manner, you cannot possibly have any idea of how the other has suffered.  Why must you think of yourself as the greater sufferer?  Such comparisons are foolishness-- get over it!
   If you want to dwell on suffering, don't feel sorry for yourself-- think about how Jesus suffered-- more than anyone before or since.  At this point, the skeptic may begin to evaluate victims of war, plagues, accidents, etc. in hopes of demeaning the sufferings of Christ.  Without going into detail, the thing that was most horrible of all about Christ's ordeal is that He alone, of all who ever lived, did not deserve such agony.  You and I have fallen far short of pleasing God, but Jesus never did-- He always obeyed the will of His Father in heaven.  He was innocent, but God condemned Him to be beaten, abandoned, and killed in our place, in order to save us from the destruction we would bring down upon ourselves, and Jesus submitted Himself to this end out of obedience to His Father and love for you and me.  
   Instead of bemoaning that my suffering isn't respected by others, I am indebted to respect the suffering that was voluntarily borne on my behalf, by one upon Whom I had no claim.  Such consideration should go a long way toward humbling me in my regard for my peers, and make me less demanding about their regard of me.

   Oh, that spiritual song the fieldhands sang concluded by stating, "Nobody knows the trouble I see.  Glory, Hallelujah!"

al

[summer007]

Bravo...well said.

[sfortescue]

Al,

You've got the tense wrong.  It's "Nobody knows the trouble I've seen."

You also left out the important phrase, "Nobody knows but Jesus."

There is a false teaching that seems popular lately that defines "Christ-like" as being silent when hurting.  The reason this teaching is false is that it is just a ruse.  The real meaning behind the teaching is that christians should look down on those who are hurting.  After all, you wouldn't know about it if they hadn't said something and violated the "code of silence".

The real definition of "Christ-like" is to care about those who are hurting.

Luke 4:16-22
And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.  And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias.  And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, to preach the acceptable year of the Lord.  And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down.  And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.  And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.  And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth.  And they said, Is not this Joseph's son?

So far, I've refrained from answering in this thread.  It has seemed best to let those who are more patient and diplomatic answer.  Perhaps Tom is running out of patience?

John 3:19-21
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.  For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.  But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

[David Mauldin]

Tom, yes I  did read it! Tom and others, did you (I know you are retired.) "a Christian" who holds to "taditional values" work in a secular institution? Do other people who are Christian work in government positions?  Of course!  Now if I lead up an organization "LifeSite" and I want to premote my "tradition values" ie. "homosexuality is a sin", and Dr. Maria Xiridou holds to my "traditional views" than I am going to use her work on my site! Tom the sites main purpose  is to give women an alternative to abortion. of course they are going to post  this kind of garbage.  Tom remember the "House of Prayer"?  my brother lived about one block west on Wilshire.  He lived in the same building where Kirt Byword had his pottery shop. He and a group of guys use to rent all three units.  Tom my brother and his friends were just normal  guys.  Thy were in their twenties, not serious about careers, education etc..  yet they were serious about parties. They were serious about women!  Tom I am not lieing when I say that for any of these guys to go through 7,8,9,10,11, 20? relationships in one year was anything they considered "abnormal"   On the contrary they were "normal" they were just "Men behaving badly"  O.K. You might not want to go so easy on them.  But truthfully this is what is "normal" for a very large part of our society. O.K. I can hear it already!!!! Is it right?  Is it good?  I am not saying it is.  (Why do you think I got 'saved"?) Tom let's look at it from this perspective.  When Wilt Chamberlin writes in his book that he has had sex with over a thousand women, most men look at that as quite an acomplishment.  Of course if a woman in our society said this she would be considered a slut! a whore!  So also the homosexual.  If a homosexual has a relationship "He is a sick person!!!"  Tom you and everyone will admit that our society is filled with people like my brother and his friends.  Why then isn't Mr. LaHaye writing a book on the premise "See heterosexual relationships don't work!"  The real truth is that homosexuals are just like anyone else.  Yes, some homosexuals are unstable, confused immoral.  These men tend to be the focus of the sudies you reffer to. Are the studies completely false? No -but heterosexuals are no different, but in our society, they have an advatage over gays. As I said before, imagine if you were in a relationship where society, the church, your family and Tim LaHaye condemed it. Had laws forbidding it. How long would it last?  When the thought comes across my mind "I think I will leave my wife"  I have to consider, What will my relatives say?  What will my co-workers think?  What will Tim LaHaye say?  etc...  A few years ago I  was renting a guest house from an elder of the first Christian Church.  Every other weekend his son would come over and do the yardwork.  Now and then we would chat. He is a very conservative hard working, clean, responsable man. But he is gay!  He and his partner have been together for quite a few years. Right now they both are saving their money to retire and move to Arizona. Tom is this guy a sick and perverted man? Tom why dont you read books about gays who represnt this side of society?  Does this contradict your Biblical view of gays?  Does this man and his partner pose a threat to you?  To national security? The truth is gays are just like you and me. They have their problems just like you and me! But they have more. They live in a society that treats them the same way it use to treat blacks and other minorities. (Many people still treat blacks and minorities wrongly)  The problems are that you believe the stereotypes and you perpetuate the racism.   S-D  Hang in there!!!!!

[Oscar]

You criticize our (my) "simply flinging verses and Bible knowledge."  What I am doing is pointing out that your position is completely predictable in the Bible.  In fact, You, Shin, and Dave M. have provided quite a bit of evidence for the reliablilty of the Bible.

I know you've heard us but have you ever taken the time to actually listen to us? Your posts always seem to be on the offensive/pre-emptive strike and you seem so determined to beat us down with the force of your arguments, which seem to be a little too stacked. A couple of other people do this as well, so I'm not singling you out. Other people have presented their disagreements with our positions in a very clear but civil manner so keep in mind I'm not using this particular post as a vehicle to attack your views.

So if it makes you happy, you're right*. So why all the energy in trying to prove you're right.

*sarcasm on the tone of Sheryl Crow's "If it Makes You Happy"

Shin,

I will answer this post soon.  Got some things to do.

Thomas Maddux

[Oscar]

Tom, yes I  did read it! Tom and others, did you (I know you are retired.) "a Christian" who holds to "taditional values" work in a secular institution? Do other people who are Christian work in government positions?  Of course!  Now if I lead up an organization "LifeSite" and I want to premote my "tradition values" ie. "homosexuality is a sin", and Dr. Maria Xiridou holds to my "traditional views" than I am going to use her work on my site! Tom the sites main purpose  is to give women an alternative to abortion. of course they are going to post  this kind of garbage.  Tom remember the "House of Prayer"?  my brother lived about one block west on Wilshire.  He lived in the same building where Kirt Byword had his pottery shop. He and a group of guys use to rent all three units.  Tom my brother and his friends were just normal  guys.  Thy were in their twenties, not serious about careers, education etc..  yet they were serious about parties. They were serious about women!  Tom I am not lieing when I say that for any of these guys to go through 7,8,9,10,11, 20? relationships in one year was anything they considered "abnormal"   On the contrary they were "normal" they were just "Men behaving badly"  O.K. You might not want to go so easy on them.  But truthfully this is what is "normal" for a very large part of our society. O.K. I can hear it already!!!! Is it right?  Is it good?  I am not saying it is.  (Why do you think I got 'saved"?) Tom let's look at it from this perspective.  When Wilt Chamberlin writes in his book that he has had sex with over a thousand women, most men look at that as quite an acomplishment.  Of course if a woman in our society said this she would be considered a slut! a whore!  So also the homosexual.  If a homosexual has a relationship "He is a sick person!!!"  Tom you and everyone will admit that our society is filled with people like my brother and his friends.  Why then isn't Mr. LaHaye writing a book on the premise "See heterosexual relationships don't work!"  The real truth is that homosexuals are just like anyone else.  Yes, some homosexuals are unstable, confused immoral.  These men tend to be the focus of the sudies you reffer to. Are the studies completely false? No -but heterosexuals are no different, but in our society, they have an advatage over gays. As I said before, imagine if you were in a relationship where society, the church, your family and Tim LaHaye condemed it. Had laws forbidding it. How long would it last?  When the thought comes across my mind "I think I will leave my wife"  I have to consider, What will my relatives say?  What will my co-workers think?  What will Tim LaHaye say?  etc...  A few years ago I  was renting a guest house from an elder of the first Christian Church.  Every other weekend his son would come over and do the yardwork.  Now and then we would chat. He is a very conservative hard working, clean, responsable man. But he is gay!  He and his partner have been together for quite a few years. Right now they both are saving their money to retire and move to Arizona. Tom is this guy a sick and perverted man? Tom why dont you read books about gays who represnt this side of society?  Does this contradict your Biblical view of gays?  Does this man and his partner pose a threat to you?  To national security? The truth is gays are just like you and me. They have their problems just like you and me! But they have more. They live in a society that treats them the same way it use to treat blacks and other minorities. (Many people still treat blacks and minorities wrongly)  The problems are that you believe the stereotypes and you perpetuate the racism.   S-D  Hang in there!!!!!

David,

"The truth is gays are just like you and me. "

Dave, it is absurd to claim that something is the same and different at the same time.

You refer to scientific studies that disagree with your position as "garbage".

Have you read the study?  Have you examined the methodology?  Have you any basis other than your dislike of the results to reject it?

For that matter, have you ever read a scientific study report about this at all?

I doubt it.  David, if you wish to be taken seriously, you must get serious.  

You say that I am perpetuating "racism".  

Where did that come from?  Tell me Dave, just what are my thoughts on race and just how did you discern them?

Regarding the "just like you and me" claim.  Hold off until I get time to reply to Shin's post.  There will be some "food for thought" in it.

Thomas Maddux

[David Mauldin]

Tom as I stated I read he book by Tim LaHaye, I also attend a "gay church" where the issue is brought up quite often. The garbage I refer to is the premise of your "science"  Homosexuaility is wrong because "scientific evidence" shows  homosexual  relationships are filled with pain, failure, disease etc... When in truth they are no different then heterosexual relationships. A fact that you are totally ignoring. Tom answer the questions,  Why are homosexual relationships threatening to you or society? When you treat homosexuals as wicked, evil, sinners based the Bible and/or this type of "science" are you not being a "racist"?  Racism might not be the correct word but it is just like racism.  Treating a Black man like he is a lazy, shiftess, etc... when in truth you might not know anything about who the person really is. This is racism.  Treating a homosexual as if something is wrong with them is  "racism". O.K. I should use "Homophobic"  but to me homophobic doesn't place enough responsability on people who mistreat gays.