Girlie-men

[Joseph Reisinger]

David,
quick observation.  I believe what Tom was asking for was some evidence from you of your assertions - namely that "[homosexual relationships] are no different than heterosexual relationships."
In the context of one having no more adverse effects than the other, you say this is a truth, yet give no supporting scientific reasoning, or studies to support it.  The opposition to that opinion (especially on a board such as this) is such that evidence of your statement in neccessary for it to be taken seriously.

While the consequences of certain lifestyles are certainly worth looking into when considering them philosophically, I think that the most important thing that faces every christian questioning homosexuality is What does God say about it?  and  Do I believe Him?  - and finally, providing that I do believe what He says, how do I as a christian behave towards one who chooses to define him or her self by that 'sexual orientation'.

Is there a question as to what the Bible says about it?  esp in places like Romans 1?  I do not think that (according to the bible) one can make a very good case for the act of homosexual sex not being a sin.

As for my behavior towards those who are gay, there is no question that they, like me, are uniquely and specially created by God, and that he loves them in spite of their faults, even as he loves me in spite of all of mine.  I do not sit in judgement over them, but because in my depravity I saw grace, I will do my best to point them to that same grace that shines for every man and woman.  
As for the homosexual acts, I will not voice my approval, nor will I ever voice my approval for Wilt Chamberlains exploits, or those of any other act of fornication.  
I am a sinner.  For others to treat me as if nothing is wrong with me would be false and unhealthy.  I cannot approve of what I know is wrong, but I can point to the one who waits with open arms for all sinners to come.

Joseph

[al Hartman]

Joseph,

     Please allow me a couple of brief responses to your lucid & generous remarks:

While the consequences of certain lifestyles are certainly worth looking into when considering them philosophically, I think that the most important thing that faces every christian questioning homosexuality is What does God say about it?  and  Do I believe Him?  - and finally, providing that I do believe what He says, how do I as a christian behave towards one who chooses to define him or her self by that 'sexual orientation'.

     Having been personally acquainted with a number of homosexual individuals over the years, I can attest that there are those who definitely do NOT choose to define themselves by their sexual choices, just as there are promiscuous heterosexuals who do not define themselves by either their heterosexuality nor their promiscuity.  While the passage of time has made American homosexuals more open about discussing their orientations, many, perhaps most, appear to think of themselves in terms of  their individuality, their skills & talents, their enjoyments of arts, sports & other recreation, their politics, etc., while their sexual practices are personal & private as should befit the social sensitivities of any rational person.

     I bring this up for two reasons.  First, it can be excruciating to those of us who have family members who are homosexual (Cathy & I are related to two, who we love dearly and pray for) to hear otherwise reasonable Christians refer to "the sodomites" or "the homosexuals" as if they constitute a solid bloc, a collective adjoined at the brain who, with a single mind and will have joined forces to overthrow God and all decency in the world.  I am not saying that anyone on this board has displayed such extreme insensitivity or absence of thought, but it does exist, and Christians seem easily drawn into it.  There are homosexual folk supporting nearly every political position, philosophical view, and charitable endeavor that their hetero- counterparts do.  None of thes things will save anyone from destruction-- I merely point out that sexual preference is not the primary focus of every person of any persuasion.

As for my behavior towards those who are gay, there is no question that they, like me, are uniquely and specially created by God, and that he loves them in spite of their faults, even as he loves me in spite of all of mine.  

     Yes, and this brings me to my second reason for this post:  There is none righteous, no not one.  All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way, and the Lord has laid on Christ Jesus the iniquity of us all.  

     We who have turned to Christ are commissioned by Him to go into all the world to preach the gospel and make disciples.  We are sent to preach Christ, the remission of sins, and repentance.  We are not sent to tell homosexuals that they must quit their orientation & marry members of the opposite sex before Christ will accept them, as one of my "gay" kinsmen told me Christians preach.  It is the nature of mankind, fallen into a state of sinfulness, and not the accumulation or the nature of one's sins, which keeps a soul separated from God.  I find it significant that among the things listed in Proverbs 6:16-19 which God hates, homosexuality is not specified, and yet Christians will band together to take a stand against homosexuals while virtually ignoring pride, dishonesty, murder, wickedness, etc. as targets of concern.  It can be a very sloppy, lazy, thoughtless & heartless practice of religion.

     When we preach repentance to the unsaved, we are not merely telling them to turn from their sins.  With a flawed nature that cannot help but sin, where would they turn?  We preach Christ crucified, the power and the wisdom of God to all who are called:  only in Him are any of us able to repent.  To a believer, born anew by the spirit of God, we will minister regarding sexual misconduct & many other things as needed, but to the unsaved the only issue for us to address is their need of Christ.

 I cannot approve of what I know is wrong, but I can point to the one who waits with open arms for all sinners to come.

Joseph

     Amen, Joseph.  Thanks for your post.

al

[delila]

All:
So often when I read the BB I think: "Hey, I could have written that, say ten or twelve years ago..." But really, I'm sure I did write that, much of what's been written, the tone it has been written in, with more than the number of verses with which much of this is 'padded out' to make it so bulky and full and tough and everlasting, when really, I was very small.  I still am very small, shrinking with age perhaps.  So yeah, Tom and Al and Mark, I understand you all.  I predicted what would be written even before I logged on to read responses to certain topics.  Rarely have I been surprised by what's been written.  It is not new, much of it is the old assembly line regergitated without phrases like: Now sister, have you talked to the brothers about that?  Did you get counsel?  Are you following the directions we gave?  We should check your schedule sometime.

Every once in a while I consider God as a person, seriously, but I think that demeans whatever it is that God is.  I think that the energy of life that, whether breathed into clay molded into human form or hatched from an egg dropped by aliens, is so much bigger than stacking society into groups that make some 'bad' and others justified in their almightly grand pooba anger.  I think it's wasted energy to point and poke, not to mention, bad manners.

There is something else that I want to say but ugg comes to mind again and hangs there heavy in the air.  I remember once when I thought I'd go back to the band wagon and try to convert an old boy friend.  I remember him saying:  "Delila, to me it's not about us all being on the same team and trying to convert others to our religion.  I think the bible has about as much to say as Milton or Dorris Lessing or any other writer that's really digging..." and he said more, but that's what sticks to me.  So he didn't join my team and I left my team about a year later and I look at the "Accept Jesus and be saved" group and I think: saved from what?  The same heavy handed separation games go on and though it is SAID we derive our righteousness from Christ Alone, this is clearly not the case.  So offten that righteouss feeling you get when you slam somebody, feeds you more than Jesus, it's got to.  Or you wouldn't keep doing it.
d

[M2]

To Whom It May Concern,

I have said this to David M before.  Maybe the real problem is that some of you have not yet shed your 'Christian' perceptions a la assembly.  When you read the responses of individuals who have left the assembly (not the Bible) behind, it becomes the 'trigger' that causes you to hear the voices of individuals the George had assimilated.  The only way to solve the dilemna is to shut off the trigger, according to ST-Voyager anyway eh??

One person would repeatedly tell me something like, "I am praying and God hasn't yet shown me."  She had boxed God in and had decided that she would know that He had answered if and only if He answered in the way she expected Him to answer.

Thou shalt nots are a necessary part of life.  Thou shalt not molest a child.  Thou shalt not abuse thy spouse.  Thou shalt not be prejudiced against a 'gay' person just because of his 'preference'. Thou shalt not follow Wilt Chamberlin's example.  We've already discussed quite a few just on this thread.

The assembly did not actually help us to become 'overcomers'.  Each of us entered with our own sets of problems.  Most left with the same set and more.  The homosexual did not find victory over his homosexuality.  The individual with a problem with 'outbursts of anger' left thus as well.  The you-name-it left with you-name-it.  The assembly counsellors could take us apart and name our issues, but then we were left all taken apart and well aware of our sin and dilemnas, and hopeless.

Sorry, that is not the work of God, but the work of a master deceiver.

Much love to you,
Marcia

[Arthur]

Let's hear it for the good guys.  Apparently for the time being there still are sane people in government.

California high court voids same-sex marriages

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39941

Voting 5 to 2 they said the SF mayor overstepped his bounds in issuing the licenses.

No duh.

[sfortescue]

This is speculation, but maybe imprinting is the mechanism by which a person becomes homosexual.  The Bible does call it a confusion.  If this is so, then there would be reason for both sympathy for their difficulties and keeping them and their ideas away from your children.  This is kind of analogous to a quarantine situation.  This would mean that promoters are the worse offenders.  No doubt the severity of God's judgement on Sodom was for their predatory behavior.

http://www.epub.org.br/cm/n14/experimento/lorenz/index-lorenz.html

Another worse thing is to slander God by saying that he made you a homosexual.  Your words are worse than your actions if you say that.

Promoting the homosexual political agenda is similar in its result to what the men of Sodom did.  They surrounded Lot's house demanding his visitors.  The political activists are trying to take away the rights of parents to protect their children.  This is like demanding that parents send their children out for these predators to "find out" whether the children are homosexual.  Do you think that God won't judge for this?

[Oscar]

Hi folks,

Here is a link to an article on the Exodus International website.  Of course, they are "one sided" in that they believe that people can have a degree of recovery from homosexuality.  

(If you disagree with certain folks, you are "one sided" and wrong.  If you agree, you are just right.)  

They do not claim that it is easy.  In fact, they acknowledge that it is very difficult.

They also believe that the degree of healing varies from individual.  Some make a complete recovery.  Others have periods of temptation. Some lapse, "fall off the wagon".

 To me, this sounds just about like the problems faced by people in all addictive behaviors.

But one thing is certain.  There are thousands of people who have rejected the homosexual life and have experienced substantial healing from its devastation.

Here's the link:

http://exodus.to/library_prevention_05.shtml


Thomas Maddux

[Oscar]

Tom as I stated I read he book by Tim LaHaye, I also attend a "gay church" where the issue is brought up quite often. The garbage I refer to is the premise of your "science"  Homosexuaility is wrong because "scientific evidence" shows  homosexual  relationships are filled with pain, failure, disease etc... When in truth they are no different then heterosexual relationships. A fact that you are totally ignoring. Tom answer the questions,  Why are homosexual relationships threatening to you or society? When you treat homosexuals as wicked, evil, sinners based the Bible and/or this type of "science" are you not being a "racist"?  Racism might not be the correct word but it is just like racism.  Treating a Black man like he is a lazy, shiftess, etc... when in truth you might not know anything about who the person really is. This is racism.  Treating a homosexual as if something is wrong with them is  "racism". O.K. I should use "Homophobic"  but to me homophobic doesn't place enough responsability on people who mistreat gays.

David,

When you reject studies that tabulate what real people actually do, you are rejecting reality.  

Once a person rejects reality, there is nothing left but fantasy.  If you are comfortable with opinions based on fantasies, enjoy.  I am not.

Why should I, or anyone else, pay attention to the moral pronouncements of someone who lectures me from a basis of fantasies.?

Regarding "racist" and "homophobe", you are back to name calling.  

That is not OK.  Please do not continue that.

Thomas Maddux

[Joseph Reisinger]

Al,
I agree

  Having been personally acquainted with a number of homosexual individuals over the years, I can attest that there are those who definitely do NOT choose to define themselves by their sexual choices, just as there are promiscuous heterosexuals who do not define themselves by either their heterosexuality nor their promiscuity.  While the passage of time has made American homosexuals more open about discussing their orientations, many, perhaps most, appear to think of themselves in terms of  their individuality, their skills & talents, their enjoyments of arts, sports & other recreation, their politics, etc., while their sexual practices are personal & private as should befit the social sensitivities of any rational person.

I made that distinction in my post because, if one does not choose to identify themselves as gay, then it definitely makes it much easier to see them for who they are beyond that.  It is when someone makes their individuality based on the fact they engage in homosexual acts that I find it much harder to get beyond that and see the person God loves.

It is the same with heterosexual fornication.  I have a friend who at times has seemed to be defined by the number of girls he can bed.  It makes me sad, because I have to really look hard just to see the remnants of who he really is, instead of the testosterone infused predator that he seems to be.

Joseph

[David Mauldin]

Sorry about the name calling! Tom, when you repond to me by posting a verse of scripure that says   "Professing themselves as wise they have become fools"  isn't this name calling?   Tom the science we are discussing goes like this. "If you are a gay male who comes from a certain demographic you have a 59% more chance of contracting an STD than does a hetero male from that same demographic." It goes on and on.  Is it true?  Sure O.K. Statistics involve many variables. We can use this same science to show that "If you are black male from a certain demographic you have a 59% more chance of contracting an STD than a white male from the same demographic. It doesn't prove that they are any more "evil" or "righteous" than my brother, you me.  Which by the way is the assertion from people who are behind LifeSite and Tim LaHaye.  When I just happen to notice a pretty woman I feel an attraction for her.  Why?  I'm not sure why, but I know I am attracted to her.  These feelings have been inside of me since I was a very young boy.  Before I was born I don't remember what happened. I don't remember going down an assembly line and God asking me, "Hetero or Homo?" I just got what I got. The same for gays.  When HUELL Howser sees a guy he is attracted to him the same way you and I are attracted to women. Gays are just like everyone else. The world governments are quickly moving towards complete equality for  gays. Yet people like Jerry Falwell don't like it. Does it make Jerry feel uncomfortable?  Like Oh no! whats the world coming to?   I believe that certain societies feel threatend by Homosexuality because they don't tend to procreate. (A fundamental purpose of primitive rites.) But this is changing.  Today many Gays are having children through adoption etc..  I remember my years in the assembly.  I can remember how  guilty (the neurosis that followed) I felt because I wanted to have sex with a woman!  I can't imagine how guilty I would have felt if it was towards a man! To enncourage people to feel this way about themselves is wrong! Oh by the way, if you know of a science that proves that homosexuality really is wrong by all means share it!

[David Mauldin]

Dear HUELL Sorry dude, I outed you!

[Joe Sperling]

Is Huell Howser really gay or are you kidding? I knew Fred Flintstone was, but Huell Howser? Really? wow.

--Joe

[Mark C.]

Dear D.  ,

  Way back when on this thread you responded to my "I know that you are being sarcastic post", and Saturday finally arriving I can now respond.

  You said quite a bit in a few sentences that I would like to respond to, unfortunately I do not have the "gift" of a sharp wit like you do, so forgive my long and rambling answers.

  We were talking about "drawing moral lines", or rules, and I took your response to be one that scoffed at such a notion as being unneccesary.  Then, I believe you argued that the Bible, and my faith in it, were no different than blindly following GG; your contention, if I have it right, is that my faith in a personal God is a narrow type of "club membership" that views life through a "straw."  Also, that Christianity is just a male created means to control others via assuming a God given moral superority over others lives.

  This thread has had some who answered some of these challenges listed above very well.  I thought that Joseph Resigner's post answered perfectly the last item about moral superiority.

  I would like to respond to your challenge to a belief in "a personal God," as all the above questions are tied together on this point.

  Prior to my new birth I believed in the Eastern religous view that God was a universal consciousness; that God was everything, and as such everthing was part of God.  Indeed, evil was part of God, as was good, and that we all existed in a kind of eternal circle of existence.

  Such belief can bring a feeling of great contentment for those plagued by their conscience.  It can also bring great relief to a feeling of frustration in struggling against the concept that God has moral expectations for my life.  

  This last paragraph was the reason for my rejecting the Christian concept of God and accepting the "god is a force" type idea.  The immediate relief I felt led me to a course of moral and psychological passivity, that travelled a path to a deep narcissism.  I was a very nice guy, and never hurt a flea, but lived life in isolation w/o any positive impact on others.  Had I been left alone I would have ended up never getting married, having children, having a productive career, and could have been a hermit to my days end.

  I lived in a cave in the mountains, and began to be oppressed by spiritual forces that I did not understand.  I now believe that these powers were demonic, but that is not the important point, rather it was a means to awaken me from the path of least resisitance that I took.

  I then cried from the heart, "God, whoever, or whatever you are; I will do what you want!"  The oppresive spiritual forces vanished and a joy that I never had came to my life!!

 This was not done in a church meeting, and I had never heard of the Assembly at that time,  rather it was a personal experience between me and God alone.  If your experiences with the Gospel were all Assembly linked, this could be a problem with your ability to separate God from a kind of group think.  There are those who leave the Assembly, and once the group controls are lifted, they realize they have no connection with God at all.

  My cry was not answered because of it's theological correctness, it was the moral component, "I will do what you want,"  that accomplished the necessary breakthrough.

  The essence of reality is not "God consciousness", but that God is holy:  "God is light", the Bible states, and "this light lightens every person that comes into the world."  This light is moral sensitivity to what is good and evil.

 Though I tried to escape my conscience via a belief that morality was not an issue, it was being forced to admit that it was an issue that led to my discovery of true peace and joy.

  My "facing of the moral issue" did not mean that I was able to change the fact of my own moral failings, but I realized instantly that the problem had been resolved.  I learned later the reason for this, and that was that God Himself, in the person of the Son, gave His life to take my sins away.

 God as a person makes so much more sense than God as a force.  The fact of creation means that there is a designer and with that design comes a purpose to life.  The fact that we do have moral awareness means that the designer gave us this attribute.  W/o moral awareness and distinctions we sink into an abyss of moral relatavism that brought to birth such "great" movements as Nazism and Communism.  This also brought the hippie generation of "free love" that brought the resurgence of almost defeated STD's and some new ones to boot!  


  This salvation understanding is entirely individual and comes from an one-on-one interaction with God.  Group membership in an organization, with loyalty to a dogma, will never produce the personal enlightment that comes from regeneration via the Spirit of God.

  "Many will come from the East and West", as Jesus said, and make this personal discovery, since God has given everyone moral awareness (a conscience); this "generation of the righteous" is not going to be a narrow select group of church going members, but spans all time and the Globe!

  The foundation of my faith is not based on the moral superiority of my character, rather on a personal transformation of my heart.  This change came from conviction of my conscience and the forgiveness of sins.

  The Gospel's power to change lives is not through a gift of moral superiority to others, rather as a demonstration of God's great mercy and grace to broken and needy folks.

  This spirit of love and forgiveness was largely absent from the Assembly system, and instead a harsh caricature of the face of God was displayed.  Groups can lose their Gospel moorings and drift from "the grace of God in truth" and do great damage to people ( i.e., "destroyed faith, stumbled lives, offended little ones, etc.).

  If one is unable to separate the loving God of the gospel from the twistings of Assembly, and other group think distortions, they may have never experienced the most wonderful discovery of personal salvation through reception of the Holy Spirit.

                                               God Bless,  Mark C.

 

[David Mauldin]

For quite  awhile I use to suspected HUELL was gay (However my gaydar is not very good)  but I never mentioned it to anyone. Then one day at work some people were talking about it. If you think about it when HUELL says "That's Amazing"  it kinda reminds you of Jim Nabors saying "Surprise, Surprise, Surprise!  

[David Mauldin]

Mark C  (Campbell?) Your experience in the cave can be interpretted in many ways. This does not diminish it.  It can be interpretted by what   people in A.A. call "A moment of clarity" I had/have these experiences also. I have been "Born Again".  Merton states that this is simply breaking away from ignorance and seeing life in a whole new experience.   After having one at age 15, I then "Learned" what it meant when I was directed towards Christian fundamentalist. They taught me about the moral lines or in other words "What I believe" Funny! Christians learn what they believe after they become a christian! I was taught that there were "Absolutes" that we as Christians were absolutely correct in our world view because we have the absolute Word of God, the Spirit of God, the Church of God, The mind of God, the Son of God. I was also taught that science supported our beliefs, but when science would seemingly contradict our beliefs, then we reverted to "by Faith we understand..." etc... These revelations brought on a euphoria, a feeling and awarness that I knew what it is all about and am privy to a cosmic drama about to unfold.  With great zeal I sought to convert others and to teach the Bible.  Yet, as time passed on the questions and contradictions haunted me.  If God revealed to truth about such and such why then did I learn later that that doctrine was in "error" or that choice was "Not the Will of God!" (at the time God spoke very clearly) If Billy Graham was/is so in tune with the living and moral God then why did he not participate in the civil rights Movement? (Something he deaply regrets today!)or why do Christians hurt each other in the most disgusting ways. Yes I can hear you  "Dave, Christians are only forgiven-not perfect!"  The premise that we have within our lives a perfect God contradicts the excuses I hear over and over in the Christian church..  When your children ask you "Dad, how come a lady at church got up and gave a testimony about how she prayed and God gave her a brand new car and then we heard on the news that a little girl was kidnapped and brutally raped and murdered?"  Daddy? does God care more about his ladys' car then this little girls life and family?"  "Oh child we can't understand Gods' ways"  "Some day we will all be in heaven and God will show us!"   Sorry Mark this doesn't work anymore for me!  Love, Logic and Reason must be our guides in this life. To suggest that we have it all written down in this book, we have all the answers right here!  is not true. Life is much more complex than we want to believe.  Get out and look at other people, investigate, experiment, ask questions come up with your own conclusions then start all over again!  Life is a beautiful mystery and it is the journey and the discovering that makes it enjoyable.  I am a astonomer!  Every time a new galaxy/planet/star/nebula is dicovered it fills me with wonder and excitement.  we don't know it all and haven't even begun!!!! (This thread is about Girlie men not me!)