Girlie-men

[al Hartman]

     Romans 1, introduced as a missive to all of God's people in Rome, sent with grace and peace from God (v.7), leads us into Romans 2, which presents such statements as "thou art inexcusable... that judgest... (v.1), ...the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance... (v.4) and ...God... will render to every man according to his deeds...(vv.5-6).  While the Lord's outlook toward sin and its ultimate end is unmistakable, His timetable is less clear.  Does He always hate sin as vigorously?  Yes.  And is His giving over of the sinful to pursue their lusts His judgment?  Yes again.  But at what point, and how permanently?

     Psalm 145:9-10 tells us "The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.  All thy works shall praise thee, O LORD, and thy saints shall bless thee."  Note the use twice of the word "all."
     By this we understand that God is being good to those whose conduct is deplorable in His sight, and in tender mercy He is surrendering them to their own wicked ways.
     Verse 16 explains, "Thou openest thy hand, and satisfiest the desire of every  living thing."
     How greater can He bless someone than to grant them the satisfaction of their desires?

     Yet we know that thieves, murderers, adulterers, and even homosexuals have turned to Christ and their lives have borne witness of the new birth and the indwelling Holy Spirit.
     The Psalm continues and concludes " The LORD is nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth.  He will fulfill the desire of them that fear him: he also will hear their cry, and will save them.  The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.  My mouth shall speak the praise of the LORD: and let all flesh bless his holy name for ever and ever."(vv18-21)
     So all of God's creation is blessed by Him, and shall ultimately praise and bless Him, but in the greatness of His love to us in Jesus Christ, He extends the way of redemption.  Man must praise and bless his Creator, but man may know his Redeemer and praise and bless Him as such.
     The unregenerate are lost in sin, following their lusts, given over to their wickedness, and even so they are enjoying the blessing of God and are glorifying Him.  But they may repent, and receive and know Him-- an infinitely greater state of existence.  If God may grant one repentance from such a former state unto the latter, please, let us not give up on them...

     The search of the lost for intimacy is the quest to fill what has been described as the God-shaped vaccuum in the heart of every soul.  Sex, booze, drugs, success, power, money, fame, are all painkillers to take the edge off an empty life.  We as Christians have nothing to offer the unsaved that is comparable to these things.  Our Christian "rock" will not satisfy the musical desires of the libertine.  Christian coffee houses are no substitute for the bar scene...

     What we offer is Jesus Christ, and in Him, an entire new existence.  Being born from above is incomparable to anything the natural man has known.  The intimacy one has with God in Christ is on an entirely different plane than anything previously known or even imagined.
     Do we have such an intimacy to offer?  Without question we do.  The question, rather, is:  Do we know what it is we have?  We can only offer what we know.  I have spent most of my adult life seeking to "experience" my faith; to sense my Savior.  I was, in essence, searching my yard for something that was already in my house.

     If we doubt what we have to offer sinners and seekers, then we must ask our Lord, importunately, to open the eyes of our hearts, that we may be strengthened within, to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; and to know the love of Christ, which passes knowledge, that we may be filled with all the fulness of God. (see Ephesians 3:16-21)  Hallelujah!  What a Savior!

al

[Arthur]

Dave, thoughtful question.
All people need and seek a relationship with others because as we know, God made us that way (in his own image and likeness, and seeing as how he is an eternal relationship of three beings in one, made a creation to commune with him, and is love itself--no wonder we are as we are).
What does Chrisitanity have to offer the homosexual in terms of intimacy?

Since God made us, God also made the means to fulfill our desires.  His design as spoken in Genesis and quoted by the Son of Man was a man and a woman joined together. Homosexuality is an abomination and a willfull rejection of God's design.  God does not offer anything to fulfill it, rather he condemns it.

The songs you spoke of are not sensous but spiritual.  And here may be the answer to your question.  What is there for the homosexual?  
Let him repent from his sin, deny himself, take up his cross and follow Jesus.  Do all physical cravings need to be given into?  Could not a person forsake such things for a higher purpose?  Jesus said, "Man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God."  We are more than animals who do it in the street, do it in the road, we have a spiritual nature.  Jesus also said that some are made eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven, which many Catholic priests have taken to heart  

Jesus is not a mere intellectual fulfillment.  He is El Shaddai.  He continually meets all of our needs.  A man who lives by faith, such as Abraham did, learns this by experience.  A homosexual is one who denies God--his goodness, his provision, his commandments--and seeks to take for himself whatever he can, even that which is not lawful.

Perhaps God would give a repentant homosexual a wife and family, perhaps he would give them friendship among other believers.  God would provide.  

Arthur

[Arthur]

The question was raised earlier in this thread, "Have you even ever known a homosexual?"

I'd like to tell my story about a young man that I knew years ago who was my friend.

When I was 16, I was very much into computers and BBSing.  Before the world wide web was a big thing, computer-inclined people would commune on BBS's.  BBS stands for Bulletin Board System, and it was a computer that a private individual set up with a modem for the purpose of allowing other people dial in and chat, upload/download files, play online games or post messages much like on this board. In the Modesto area at that time, there were about 20 or so good boards that I knew of and frequented.  

I learned of one board that was run by a homosexual.  I thought I'd be smart and try to infiltrate his board and cause some havoc.  So I went on there and posted some stuff about not being sure about my sexuality, seeking etc.  I happened to attract the attention of the sysop (systems operator--the guy who owns and/or runs the BBS) and he pulled me into a chat.  We chatted for a bit and he ended up giving me full access to everything on the computer.  I went on the next day and I didn't feel right about messing things up too much, but I wrote some flaming messages on the inner board which only members can see.  The sysop happened to be on at the time and pulled me into a chat again and asked me what's going on.  I continued with my flame against him.  

He surprised me.  He didn't retaliate but reasoned with me in a calm manner.  I was ashamed of my juvenile behavior and told him as much.  I don't remember exactly how the converstation went, but I told him that I believed homosexuality was wrong because of what the Bible said.  He told me that if I was a Christian, why would I do what I did.  I said that he was right, I shouldn't have done that.  As we got to talking, Michael (his name)seemed to me like a real guy, and not some weirdo.

The next day we talked again and Michael asked me more about the Bible and why homosexuality was wrong.  He then explained to me his life and how he became homosexual.

"I am 19 years old and I'm alone in my house.  My mom died recently and my dad left home when I was 12.  Even when they were around I felt alone.  My mom was a bank president and my dad was a commercial airline pilot.  They were rarely home and when they were their friends would be over for parties and they didn't have much time for me.  When I was 13 years old, a group of homosexual men older than me preyed upon me and introduced me to homosexuality.  I didn't have anyone else to turn to.  

I've gone to the hospital and tested HIV positive and can hardly think straight because of all the drugs they have me on. I was married for a short time and my wife left me and now I can't see my kid because of the drugs."  He sounded very depressed.  

This poor guy had a messed up life.  We talked on the phone for 4 hours that Sunday night after I got home from church.  I told him about Jesus and the good news.  He was very interested to hear about it. I don't know why, but I lost touch with him after that night.

A year later out of the blue I got a phone call and it was Michael. But it was a different voice.  This guy was happy.  He said that he got saved and that his whole life had turned around.  He left all the homosexuals and that lifestyle.  The HIV had not turned into full-blown AIDS and he was feeling much better.  And he was able to see his kid again.

This was 12 years ago and a lot (the assembly, etc.) has happened since then. I wonder how Michael is doing today.

Arthur

[outdeep]

Thanks for the input and allow me to chatter on a little more about this.

Homosexuality is indeed a sin.  Further, I have no time for those in the homosexual movement who want to push their values on others.  Those who use the courts to try and force the Boy Scouts to allow homosexual men to sleep with our children in the woods and then when homosexual men molest young boys in the Catholic church they deny any responsibility saying "it's a Catholic problem, not a homosexual one."  This and the movement to try and force their values upon the public schools enrages me.  So don't think I am trying to minimize the perversion or the concern to society.

On the other hand, they are people.  And many of them are not caught up in the homosexual "movement" as much as they are ensnared in sin and think of themselves with the homosexual identity.

Of what I understand, the Evangelical church position seems to be this:  They may come fellowship with us if they repent.  They don't necessarily have to be cured (we have ministries to help in that area), but they at least have to acknowledge what they are doing is wrong and be willing to want to change.  Anything short of this, our only word for them is "what you are doing is wrong and you must repent."  No church membership, fellowship, communion, etc.

The problem as I see it is that there are extremely few homosexuals who will begin to agree to those terms.  They honestly don't see themselves as doing anything wrong.  Yes, we can wax rhetorical about them being in willful disobedience and being deluded.  But, in their gut they honestly don't feel that they are sinning in this area.  In fact, many feel as one homosexual said, "I want to be a Christian, but I don't want to be 'born again' because it is those 'born again' Christians who hate me."

Now I realize that many homosexuals and liberals are like spoiled teen-agers who never grew up and say spiteful things about any authority in their lives.  Nevertheless, we have a big divide her.  We have people who we will never realistically reach unless God produces some sort of miracle or we change our tactics and attitudes.  Isn't it we who have to attempt to be the bridges and peacemakers?

Of course, I am half-tempted to take the extreme Calvinistic position, "those homosexuals who don't repent are probably vessels of destruction anyway, so why worry about them?" or "Hey, they choose to reject Christ.  We did all we did in testifying to the truth of God's word."   But what if it becomes personal?

What if you had a son or daughter or friend who is gay?  Would you say, "we really have little to talk about until you repent?"  Would you quote Romans 1 to them whenever they came over?  Of course not.  Or would you come to a point where you still had them over for Thanksgiving and invested in their lives hoping that over time they will be ready to face the sin in their lives?

I don't have boys who are gay, but I do have sons who do often have ideas and attitudes that are sinful and wrong.  I can press the point until they are exasperated.  But sometimes, I realize that I have to drop the issue for a while and wait for them to mature and for God to do a work in their lives.  At all costs, I have to keep communication open.  I can't win the battle while driving them away in the process.

This is why I am wondering if our "culture wars", "us vs. the homosexual enemy" model that the church often falls into is really working.  It seems so, well, Assembly-like.  Author's story is really encouraging as it seems to show a model and tactic that may have some real potential.  Maybe all that I am saying is this:  I really need help in learning how to lower the drawbridge of my fortress church, come out from behind my shield of Scriptural justifications and learn to love people who I would normally look at as vile, contrary and unlovable.

[Jem]

Dave,

When you said, "But, in their (homosexuals) gut they don't feel they are sinning in this area." I have never found that to be true of any of my gay friends. It is the guilt of their sin--that undeniable gut feeling like the rest of us have when we sin--that causes them to strain so much to deny it as sin. Unless their consciences have been "seared with a hot iron" you can pretty much see them follow human nature. I have found the best appeal to them is like you said, like any other unsaved person. Be their friend. Talk to them about God, Christ and sin. In that order. I personally have never led anyone to the Lord by zeroing in on their most egregious sins as a starting point.

 

[vernecarty]

What if you had a son or daughter or friend who is gay?  Would you say, "we really have little to talk about until you repent?"  Would you quote Romans 1 to them whenever they came over?  

Of course you would not.
I believe there are two fundamental questions for the believer in dealing with this issue.
1. How do we think about it?
2. What do we do about it?
While it is true that right thinking does not always result in right action, it is fairly certain that wrong thinking will in all likelihood lead to wrong action.
My citing Romans 1 was for the specific reason of showing what I believe to be a flaw in the thinking of many on the matter.  I strongly agree with Jem that that notion that people who engage in this sort of activity have no sense of wrong-doing is not Scripturally defensible.
The remarkable political and other capital expended to forcibly normalize what the vast majority of even non-Christians consider aberrant is I think quite revealing.
Our thinking about homosexuality has to be predicated on the teaching of the Word of God, not some sort of sympathetic speculation that seeks to make the case:

 "These individuals cannot change what they are by nature"

Scripture clearly states that this kind of behaviour is unnatural.

If this is true, we as Christians need to not only acknowledge it, but this has to be the starting point for any strategy, born of a love for our fellow man, that would seek to affect them for good.

We must begin with truth.

If Scripture is correct, there can be no recovery for a person in this situation who does not begin by acknowldgeing the Almighty. God's Word states that it was His rejection, as a proximate cause that resulted in their condition.

We certainly must be gracious, we certainly must be civil.
If howerever, any Christian believes that compromise and accommodation on this issue is in the homosexual's best interests, I would suggest that our thinking, and therefore in all likelihood our consequent action will be futile...
Verne

[outdeep]

My citing Romans 1 was for the specific reason of showing what I believe to be a flaw in the thinking of many on the matter.  I strongly agree with Jem that that notion that people who engage in this sort of activity have no sense of wrong-doing is not Scripturally defensible.

Just to be clear.  My post was not a reaction to your post so don't feel attacked or that you have to defend it.  I too camp in Romans 1 for the best description of God's attutude towards the degernation of man.   I am simply using the board as a sounding board for my "thinkings out loud" and I appreciate your perspective.

[al Hartman]

Verne,

     Please don't think me contentious as I press you to be more specific...
     Cathy & I have two close family members who are homosexuals.  One of them claims to be a Christian, attends church and participates in church programs.  I don't know specific details about whether that church openly accepts and/or encourages homosexuality.
     The second one practices "religious science," acknowledging the Almighty in vague, mystic, unscriptural ways.  So when you say:

If Scripture is correct, there can be no recovery for a person in this situation who does not begin by acknowldgeing the Almighty. God's Word states that it was His rejection, as a proximate cause that resulted in their condition.

 ...I would appreciate more detailed exposition.  
     We love both these kinfolks dearly, and would not wilfully do anything to stumble them, whether by way of condemning or compromising.  Neither would we in any way detract from our Lord's testimony.  We fully understand and accept that they may be left behind...
     We are separated from them both by many miles, so we have little contact with either of them.  We pray for their deliverance and watch for opportunity.  Any help you (anyone) can offer will be appreciated.  Your prayers are always welcome...

God bless,
al

[vernecarty]

My citing Romans 1 was for the specific reason of showing what I believe to be a flaw in the thinking of many on the matter.  I strongly agree with Jem that that notion that people who engage in this sort of activity have no sense of wrong-doing is not Scripturally defensible.

Just to be clear.  My post was not a reaction to your post so don't feel attacked or that you have to defend it.  I too camp in Romans 1 for the best description of God's attutude towards the degernation of man.   I am simply using the board as a sounding board for my "thinkings out loud" and I appreciate your perspective.

Thanks for the clarification Dave.
Your question has really set me to thinking about this.
I believe those of us that have learned in some measure what it means to have a serious and committed relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ need wisdom to speak the truth in such a way that hearts  that are receptive may indeed benefit.
There is no one who walks in the resurrection power of the Lord Jesus Christ who has not known a personal struggle with some easily besetting sin.
Even after God has "commanded the light to shine in our hearts", there is still "evening and morning..."
Who of us have not come to the place of realizing our own powerlessness to calm the restless seas that roar within?

Establishment of boundaries is God's business.

We have discovered, to the praise of His glory, that God does not so much ask us to conquer our sin, as He asks for us to confess it. The problem arises over our unwillingness to agree with Him, not His power to deliver.

I believe that Christians who take the position, that having sexual desires for members of one's own sex in any context, is justifialbe, are serously mistaken and not being faithful to the clear teaching of God's Word.

"If we confess our sin, He is faithfull and just to forgive us our sins..."

Too often we forget the rest of the portion of that Scripture also promises cleansing!

Herein lies the problem. There is an element of defiance in gay activism that will under no circumstances surrender the field to God. They will never agree with Him as to His assessment of their condition. The battle cry is:

I'm simply gay
And I'm here to stay

That is the disposition to which I think the first chapter of Romans speaks.
In my humble opinion, in the face of that kind of obduracy, Christians have no recourse but to pray and leave the consequences with God. For a person who has rejected truth, reason is an impotent strategy.
I do not believe that there is any besetting sin, no matter how enslaving, that is beyond the power of the Son of God.
Is it possible that not everyone wants to be delivered...?

Verne

[vernecarty]

Verne,

     Please don't think me contentious as I press you to be more specific...
   

God bless,
al

Is it O.K. I respond in open forum? Or would you prefer a PM?
I am comfortable with either...
Verne
p.s. I feel fairly confident in presuming that your family member who claims to be a Christian and homosexual does not accept the Bible as the final arbiter on these matters...

[al Hartman]

Verne,

     Please don't think me contentious as I press you to be more specific...
   

God bless,
al

Is it O.K. I respond in open forum? Or would you prefer a PM?
I am comfortable with either...
Verne
p.s. I feel fairly confident in presuming that your family member who claims to be a Christian and homosexual does not accept the Bible as the final arbiter on these matters...

Verne,

     Bless you Brother for being so considerate.  I asked on the open forum because I suspect others may profit from this discussion who would not otherwise have access to such counsel.  So by all means answer here.

     As to your P.S., I do not know this person well enough to say whether the obstruction is rejection of the scriptures or merely ignorance of them.

Gratefully,
al

[Mark C.]

Arthur's story is worth a thousand Posts!

  I have been thinking about how to answer Dave's question re. how the church should respond to homosexuals and up comes Arthur's story!  Perfect picture of how we need to look at the situation.

  Remember the situation in I:Cor. with the immoral guy who was sleeping with his stepmom?  Paul was upset with the church because they just ignored the situation.  The church must have over reacted because in 2 Cor. Paul tells them to lighten up on the kid.

  I think the moral to that story is that we must be intolerant of sin, but also make the effort to help others find the mercy and grace available to recover from that sin.

   Gal. 6: talks about "restoring" those who fall into sin, but with a cautionary note from Paul:  he warns those "ministering" (the church) to do so with humility, less we also fall.  We are only effective in helping others when we realize what hopeless sinners we are apart from God's gift of grace ourselves.

  Jesus touched the "untouchable lepers"; when the church thinks that we are somehow superior to the unwashed society around us, instead of honestly who we are, we become like the Pharisees who possessed a God given moral standard, but were like "open graves."

  I am not saying that we should abandon standards, but recognize as Jesus did that it is our mission to see the recovery of folks, not their condemnation.  For the saying, "hate sin, but love the sinner", to have an effective force in the church we can't just see others as "the sinner" and ourselves as somehow above such things.

  Now, most of us are not tempted at all by homosexuality, and probably find such inclinations very repugnant, but we all possess certain inclinations that God condemns as immoral.  Can we find "complete victory" from these kind of inclinations, or must we fight an up and down battle throughout  our lives?  Does God "heal" the immoral?  And, as Dave's first post on this mentioned:  are these problems emotionally based and Jesus wants to meet our real inner need, thus delivering us from our inordinate affection?

  I think much differently about these questions above now, but will wait to hear what others think first before replying.

                                                    God Bless,  Mark C.

 

 

[M2]

...
This is why I am wondering if our "culture wars", "us vs. the homosexual enemy" model that the church often falls into is really working.  It seems so, well, Assembly-like.  Author's story is really encouraging as it seems to show a model and tactic that may have some real potential.  Maybe all that I am saying is this:  I really need help in learning how to lower the drawbridge of my fortress church, come out from behind my shield of Scriptural justifications and learn to love people who I would normally look at as vile, contrary and unlovable.

Dave, you have a way with words, and I love your perspective on various matters.

I can so indentify with this needing "to lower the drawbridge of my fortress church, come out from behind my shield of Scriptural justifications and learn to love people...".
When 'things' happen it is quite a challenge to question in the form of an inquiry rather than a judgement call.

Re. my kids.  On matters of interpretation of Scripture where we've discussed it and do not see eye to eye, then I wait it out.  On sin issues, then I choose to forgive and love them.  On lifestyle choices that are sinful,  we probably would have some animated discussions on the matter and then if neither budged from their stance, then likely I would assure them of my love even though I disagreed with their choice.  I have told my kids (16 and 19) that they are old enough to know right and wrong and it is their relationship with God that suffers if they make sinful choices.  Realistically speaking, I cannot police their every move.  I do what I can in the home, but other than that...

Lord bless,
Marcia

P.S.
Happy Birthday

[vernecarty]

I would argue that the moral state of American society suggests that the American Church in this century has lost its savor. When we have to appeal to legislators to forcibly enjoin minimal standards of decency and humanity on the populace at large, we have already lost the war. The strange thing is that many of those who clamor the most loudly for Government mandated morality, have themselves failed to uphold that standard in their own lives, and in the lives of their families. This I believe to be the core problem.

The greatest fear of every parent who loves Christ, is that their child will ultimately depart from the Lord. The only fear I have known for now many years, is fear for my children.
For those of us who have children that we believe are erring in their choices, I believe the only important question to ask ourselves is what can and should be done that is in that child’s best interests.
I have very mixed feelings about children of Godly parents who go astray.
I listened to Jim Cymbala a few years ago speak with great power about the way one of his daughters left his home to pursue for many months, a wayward and debauched lifestyle.
Is it possible for a parent to do all that God requires and still loose their child?
I have come to believe that it is.
As someone on this BB has pointed out, God was a perfect parent, Adam and Eve rebelled.
Nonetheless the thing that struck me the most about Cymbala’s story is his heart-breaking confession:
I got so busy with ministry…I took my eyes off Cindy…”

I think Al’s query is important and thought- provoking..
All the relevant data clearly show that at the present rate of Christianity’s growth in this country, as compared with other religious faiths, Christian parents are failing to effectively evangelize their own children.
I don’t think it is reasonable to expect holiness from unbelievers.
What I find troubling is the standard that professing Christians are willing to accept.
This would bring me to the first and most important question.
Is it our position, whether as parents, siblings, or friends of homosexuals, that having sexual desires toward members of the same sex, ( homosexuality defined in its most basic terms) is permissible within a Christian world view?
I would submit that unless we can answer that qustion with certitude, we are not truly prepared to have an impact...

 I have told my kids (16 and 19) that they are old enough to know right and wrong and it is their relationship with God that suffers if they make sinful choices.  Realistically speaking, I cannot police their every move.  I do what I can in the home, but other than that...

Lord bless,
Marcia

P.S.

At this stage of young adulthood, character formation is essentially complete. The best teaching and training opportunities for parents at this stage have long since passed.
In fact it seems as if these are the years in which a remarkable penchant for doing and being everything the parent disaproves of develops. If their own internal spiritual compass is not firmly aligned with the Lordship of Christ, parents unsually have to look to others to exhert the influence they can no longer...
In general though, spiritual growth at this point will very much depend on the person's ability to find spiritual sustenance without the incessant prompting of others...
It is my fervent prayer and desire that my two precious girls will have a positive love of holiness long before they reach teenhood...

Verne

[al Hartman]

     When Cathy & I left the assembly in 1980, it was under a cloud of failure, guilt and shame, imposed by the leadership, but in which we fully believed and participated.  The truth is that, while I had earnestly strived to be all that I thought I was supposed to be as a disciple of and worker for Christ, I was a phoney, only fooling myself and anyone else willing to believe me.
     After a feeble, and failing, attempt to find fellowship in Ohio, I reverted to assaying to live as a "good person" for the next 20-some-odd years, with little thought and less involvement with Jesus Christ.  My prayers were to God and were in earnest, that He would make of me what He would, but my perspective was that I had "tried" Christ and been unsuccessful.  I marvel that it took over two decades for me to get to a place where I could see Jesus Christ for who He truly is, and not just the mental picture that religion had helped me paint of Him.  What amazes me even more is His loving patience with me, and that He never deserted me nor even withheld from teaching me (though I did not recognize it at the time).

     While I was living an outwardly "good" life, within I was corrupt, self-centered, without anything sound to offer my family.  I have no claim to the promise of Proverbs 22:6, for I did not train my children in the ways of God, and today none of the four of them is following Him.  I pray for them and for my grandchildren, knowing that whatever God's answer will be to those prayers will all come from the depths His mercy and lovingkindness, owing nothing to me.  My consolation is in knowing that, had I been the best kind of faithful parent, their wellbeing would still be all of grace and not of my invention.
    As re: Verne's remarks:

I don’t think it is reasonable to expect holiness from unbelievers.
What I find troubling is the standard that professing Christians are willing to accept.
This would bring me to the first and most important question.
Is it our position, whether as parents, siblings, or friends of homosexuals, that having sexual desires toward members of the same sex, ( homosexuality defined in its most basic terms) is permissible within a Christian world view?
I would submit that unless we can answer that qustion with certitude, we are not truly prepared to have an impact...

 ...I am not entirely sure that desire defines homosexuality any more than it defines any other habitual practice.  Rather, what is done with the desire is crucial.  Granted, there are those stirring testimonies of men and women whose conversions were accompanied by complete cleansing from every evil lust.  But far more frequently, the new saint is faced with decisions to be made in light of God's Word regarding their former behavior.  And frankly, those spectacular conversion stories can make the new life in Christ harder for "average" new converts to understand and enter into.  Our sanctification is entered into as we turn ever more toward Christ and away from our former ways. (cf 1Thes.4:3-4,7)
    Of the two homosexual relatives I mentioned, the one with whom I am more familiar is also a recovering alcoholic.  The argument has been proffered that "God made me this way (homosexual)," based upon "scientific findings."  I don't argue about the science part because, even if I presented proof positive that homosexuals are made, not born (which evidence I have not seen), it would be refuted out of hand.
     Rather, I ask "Aren't you also genetically inclined toward alcoholism?"  Assent to this point is readily granted.  "Then," I contend, "If you believe that God made you with a predisposed addiction to alcohol but you confess to know that He wants you to abstain totally from drinking, WHY would you presume that a predisposition toward homosexuality would necessarily need to be followed?"  
     That is as far as we have got, because this is the one who studies "religious science" and believes that the Bible is one book among many by which "god" speaks, and that it has been repeatedly mistranslated and misunderstood.  In my thread "A Brief Word About the Word," I outlined why this argument goes nowhere for the one who would  support the validity of the scriptures.  They are indefensible to the unregenerate mind.  Rather, the Word, alive and powerful, speaks for Himself, dividing the soul unto the uttermost parts of its being.  So I do not defend the Word of God-- rather, I speak it and trust to His working...

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