Girlie-men

[moonflower2]

 "Then," I contend, "If you believe that God made you with a predisposed addiction to alcohol but you confess to know that He wants you to abstain totally from drinking, WHY would you presume that a predisposition toward homosexuality would necessarily need to be followed?"  
 
al

This is a good point. I like it.  

[M2]

I'm interested in your answers to the questions you posed, Mark.

Can we find "complete victory" from these kind of inclinations, or must we fight an up and down battle throughout our lives?

Does God "heal" the immoral?

And, as Dave's first post on this mentioned:  are these problems emotionally based and Jesus wants to meet our real inner need, thus delivering us from our inordinate affection?

Biblically speaking, the Lord Jesus said to the woman caught in adultery, "Go and sin no more."
In reality, I still get annoyed at the way people drive, at my kids, etc.

Marcia

[Mark C.]

Hi Marcia,

  The verse that you quoted, "go and sin no more", deals with behavior, and not my inner life.

  There is much that I don't understand about predisposition toward sin, and I'm still trying to figure out how to put it into words, but there are some aspects of this that I think I am clear on.

 1.) Since we are taught in the Bible that there is a struggle in our lives between the "old man" and the "new man" (Rom. 7, etc.) I believe we will carry with us unto death certain sinful inclinations.

 2.) As Christians we are to focus on attitudes and behavior, not purifying "our hearts."  God "purifies our hearts", and Paul tells us not to judge others motives, or as in this issue we are discussing, even our own motives.  We are to judge behavior only and leave to God matters of the heart.

 3.) God does not provide spiritual life via the Spirit directly to our emotions.  In other words, when we are tempted to sin God does not fill us with a counter emotional (spiritual?) surge to combat the negative feelings we have.  It is a much larger question to answer how our emotions do fit into a healthy Christian life, but suffice it to say for now that the answer for these needs are to be found in relationship with others, and not via a direct emotional connection to God (I am not saying we don't have an emotional relationship with God, and so the operative word above is direct).

  I know the above paragraph can easily be misunderstood, but Jesus made a very big point about telling his disciples to "love one another", in His absence.  Relationships in the family and church are designed by God to meet one anothers emotional needs.  As Karey said once, "she met Jesus with skin on", via a Christian friend who went out to her.

  In the Assembly the means for this emotional support was not only absent, it took on an opposite negative abusive aspect that damaged the emotional life of believers.  This area then for us is the most important aspect of our lives to recover from, if we left with our faith in Christ intact.

  To expect God to magically take all the pain away, and make us strong and joyful in our inner life in a moment, is not how recovery will happen.  Not just the pain, but the deep seated reactions to years of abusive psychological pressure will be difficult to face alone.

 The purpose of this BB (in my mind) is to provide loving help to one another and thus be God's means to sharing one another's burdens.  Hence, threads like, Wounded Pilgrims.

                                               God Bless,  Mark C.  

[vernecarty]

   
    As re: Verne's remarks:

I don’t think it is reasonable to expect holiness from unbelievers.
What I find troubling is the standard that professing Christians are willing to accept.
This would bring me to the first and most important question.
Is it our position, whether as parents, siblings, or friends of homosexuals, that having sexual desires toward members of the same sex, ( homosexuality defined in its most basic terms) is permissible within a Christian world view?
I would submit that unless we can answer that qustion with certitude, we are not truly prepared to have an impact...

 ...I am not entirely sure that desire defines homosexuality any more than it defines any other habitual practice.  Rather, what is done with the desire is crucial.  Granted, there are those stirring testimonies of men and women whose conversions were accompanied by complete cleansing from every evil lust.  But far more frequently, the new saint is faced with decisions to be made in light of God's Word regarding their former behavior.  And frankly, those spectacular conversion stories can make the new life in Christ harder for "average" new converts to understand and enter into.  Our sanctification is entered into as we turn ever more toward Christ and away from our former ways. (cf 1Thes.4:3-4,7)
    Of the two homosexual relatives I mentioned, the one with whom I am more familiar is also a recovering alcoholic.  The argument has been proffered that "God made me this way (homosexual)," based upon "scientific findings."  I don't argue about the science part because, even if I presented proof positive that homosexuals are made, not born (which evidence I have not seen), it would be refuted out of hand.
     Rather, I ask "Aren't you also genetically inclined toward alcoholism?"  Assent to this point is readily granted.  "Then," I contend, "If you believe that God made you with a predisposed addiction to alcohol but you confess to know that He wants you to abstain totally from drinking, WHY would you presume that a predisposition toward homosexuality would necessarily need to be followed?"  
 
al

There are sins of passion, and there are sins of presumption.
The Bible places sexual sin in a special category as compared to sins outside, as it were, the body. It is unique in the sense that the person who engages in it sins against himself! ( 1 Corinthians 6:17).
It is important to think very carefully about this.
It is quite evident that the arguments marshalled in favor of normalising homosexuality have adopted a strategy of incrementalism.
It is especially employed in the context of whether or not it is acceptable to people of faith.
We are told that while  homosexual acts may be wrong ( the so called non-practicing gay person), being gay is not. After all, God made them that way.
It is remarkable intellectual contortion and sophistry at its most elegant.
The attempt to establish equivalence between what the Bible calls fornication, and is generally viewed as illicit heterosexual realtions, and homosexual acts have in my view also clouded the argument somewhat. They are not treated the same in Scripture. Scripture ascribes the word unnatural to the latter.
Christians who buy this argument do not understand the meaning of holiness.
To accept this kind of reasoning is to completely miss the power of the gospel and the reason for Christ's death- our freedom!
Freedom not only from sin's penalty but its power as well.
Christ is able to deliver not only from ungodly decisions, but also ungodly desires...the gospel ultimately reunites intellect and instinct, affections and acumen. Is that not a glorious truth...?
There is coming a day in the new creation when there will be no night... I had better quit before I start to really get excited...
bye' all
 
p.s

Hi Marcia,

 
 3.) God does not provide spiritual life via the Spirit directly to our emotions.  In other words, when we are tempted to sin God does not fill us with a counter emotional (spiritual?) surge to combat the negative feelings we have.  It is a much larger question to answer how our emotions do fit into a healthy Christian life, but suffice it to say for now that the answer for these needs are to be found in relationship with others, and not via a direct emotional connection to God (I am not saying we don't have an emotional relationship with God, and so the operative word above is direct).
                                                God Bless,  Mark C.  

Mark is right on the money here. Certainly God does not begin with our emotions. The first place of visible work of the Spirit of God in the regenerate soul is in the will.

(I use the word visible advisedly. Technically the first place of the Spirit's work is to give light to the understanding, often in Scripture depicted by the heart. This is a work not necessarily visible to others).

  And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.   John 3:19

(This verse solved a huge theological problem for me - whether God could justly condemn those who never heard the gospel. This verse clearly states that in some way shape or form, every one does!!! Think about it people.)



 
In fact,  it often comes as a startling surprise to the believer who is being filled with the Spirit that he finds a new power to make decisions contrary to feelings.
This is the power of Godliness.
It is the power of dominion over self and mediated only throught the agency of the indwelling Spirit...

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.  Romans 6:14

This is the best-kept secret of a joyful Christian walk.
God does not stop there howerver.
He unites our affections with our intellect.
A sure sign of God's maturing work in the Christian is that he begins to develop a hatred for sin, and a positive love of holiness...believe it people...believe it!
Thanks Mark! O.K now I'm done....
Verne
 

[outdeep]

    While I was living an outwardly "good" life, within I was corrupt, self-centered, without anything sound to offer my family.  I have no claim to the promise of Proverbs 22:6, for I did not train my children in the ways of God, and today none of the four of them is following Him.  I pray for them and for my grandchildren, knowing that whatever God's answer will be to those prayers will all come from the depths His mercy and lovingkindness, owing nothing to me.  My consolation is in knowing that, had I been the best kind of faithful parent, their wellbeing would still be all of grace and not of my invention.

Al,

I have a secret desire to write a devotional book called Encouragements for Lousy Parents.  I am not calling you (or me) a lousy parent.  The title is intended to be a tounge in cheek statement that things don't always go well in regard to parenting.  I always have to chuckle when I see a book with the cavalier title What the Bible says About Child Training or Growing Kids God's Way.   If you look at the majority of Bible characters and the nation Israel as a whole, one would have to question God's "parenting skills" as most didn't turn out very well.   Further, there was one Son that turned out exceptionally fine.  However if we did to our kids what God did to him, social services would immediately be involved.

I know I am joking around a bit, but my point is that most parenting books I've read are written by the strong and gifted to be implimented by the weak and broken.  They often fail to acknowledge some basic things:

1.  Kids eventually make their own choices on whatever basis they choose.  You can't prevent that.

2.  These books generally don't acknowledge the baggage we parents bring into the relationship.  We unconsciously overcompensate for things we found wrong in our parents.  Struggling with our issues often clouds our judgement or causes us to lack consistancy with our kids.   Sometimes we think a certain perspective is true and Biblical and we operate under that assumption.  Years later, we discover we were mistaken, but the time is already past.  Even the differences of perspective, personality and temperment between spouse, which takes years to understand and work out affect how we relate to our kids.

3.  When you get to specifics, there are vast differing of opinion on exactly what to do - How far do you let them engage in popular culture and how much do you shield them from?  Their are pitfalls either way.  There is no absolute answer.  We can quote verses of course, but when faced with the "should I rent this movie or not" or "should I let this kid be my kids friend or not" we have to make a snap judgement.  We sometimes choose wrong.

4.  The church often gages success if you have a squeaky-clean kid who is involved in youth group, listens to Christian groups instead of secular ones, and wears agape t-shirts to school.  But, some of them can't critically think their way out of a box.  Is it success or is it simply being a part of subculture?  Our chuches are often wired towards Christian conformaty.  Kids who move towards the edge are often rejecting a Christian subculture.

5.  Sometimes we parents just don't get it.  I remember a situation where a wife was supposed to impliment something with the kids in a certain way.  She could articulate what she was supposed to do.  In fact, she told others that "this is the way we do it".  However, when it came to carrying it out, she did something different than what she was saying.  The husband would point this out and she would try again.  It took years for her to begin to catch on.  It wasn't that she was trying to be rebellious.   She just had this "gap" between her mental process and her actions.   We all process things differently.  While some accountant types can easily say, "the Bible says this so - boom - I do this."  For others, it takes a while to make a connection between statement and action.

I have seen kids who grew up, and the parents were consciencous Christians and seemed to do everything right.  Suddenly, the kid went bezerk and went off the deep end.

I have seen kids who grew up in homes where the dad was a deadbeat alcoholic and they end up being a missionary at a Christian camp.

In fact, I have probably seen just about every combination.

I am not saying that there is nothing a parent can do.  I am saying that those strong writers who write the "do this and your kids will success" books don't have the whole picture.  Yes, there are things you do when they are young - obviously.   However, as they grow older, I found that my only tool left is to get them to realize that their choices are their responsibility and to do everything I can to keep communication open with my kids.

Sorry for my rambling.  I think by writing and I don't have any other outlet at this time.

[outdeep]

Hi Marcia,

  The verse that you quoted, "go and sin no more", deals with behavior, and not my inner life.

  There is much that I don't understand about predisposition toward sin, and I'm still trying to figure out how to put it into words, but there are some aspects of this that I think I am clear on.

 1.) Since we are taught in the Bible that there is a struggle in our lives between the "old man" and the "new man" (Rom. 7, etc.) I believe we will carry with us unto death certain sinful inclinations.

 2.) As Christians we are to focus on attitudes and behavior, not purifying "our hearts."  God "purifies our hearts", and Paul tells us not to judge others motives, or as in this issue we are discussing, even our own motives.  We are to judge behavior only and leave to God matters of the heart.

 3.) God does not provide spiritual life via the Spirit directly to our emotions.  In other words, when we are tempted to sin God does not fill us with a counter emotional (spiritual?) surge to combat the negative feelings we have.  It is a much larger question to answer how our emotions do fit into a healthy Christian life, but suffice it to say for now that the answer for these needs are to be found in relationship with others, and not via a direct emotional connection to God (I am not saying we don't have an emotional relationship with God, and so the operative word above is direct).

  I know the above paragraph can easily be misunderstood, but Jesus made a very big point about telling his disciples to "love one another", in His absence.  Relationships in the family and church are designed by God to meet one anothers emotional needs.  As Karey said once, "she met Jesus with skin on", via a Christian friend who went out to her.

  In the Assembly the means for this emotional support was not only absent, it took on an opposite negative abusive aspect that damaged the emotional life of believers.  This area then for us is the most important aspect of our lives to recover from, if we left with our faith in Christ intact.

  To expect God to magically take all the pain away, and make us strong and joyful in our inner life in a moment, is not how recovery will happen.  Not just the pain, but the deep seated reactions to years of abusive psychological pressure will be difficult to face alone.

 The purpose of this BB (in my mind) is to provide loving help to one another and thus be God's means to sharing one another's burdens.  Hence, threads like, Wounded Pilgrims.

                                               God Bless,  Mark C.  

Thanks Mark.  I thought along much the same line as well.  There is no santification silver-bullet that I have ever found - in the Assembly or out.  Paul's basic argument to the churches seem to follow the pattern "since you are in Christ, you should really try to act that way."

In being born-again, God constitutes within us a desire for holiness.  But, the reality will only be a progressive approximation of Christ until we receive our new bodies in heaven.  Having said that, I won't deny great discouragement and cynicism at times at the things that are still stuck in my life after all these years.

[summer007]

Al, You may have answered this question a few times. But for the sake of clarity are you saying you returned to the Lord after the collapes of the Assembly??? That this set you Free...Learning God was'nt this harsh task-master that the Geftakys made him out to be....And for 20 years you beat yourself up racked with guilt...and sort of gave-up on Christianity so to speak? Summer

[al Hartman]

 

     As far as I'm concerned, Dave is welcome to "think" on the BB whenever he wants to...  We all profit by it.  The book for parents is a great idea-- some posters may have ideas to contribute toward it.

     As I have posted before, Billy Graham once said that parenthood is the most important profession on earth, and God has put it entirely into the hands of amateurs.  After all our best-thought efforts have fallen short, we will finally resort to prayer.  Isn't that a lot like "When all else fails, read the directions?"


     We are not splitting hairs to point out the difference between lust and sin:  But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.  Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.Jas.1:14-15  The span of time involved in this process may be long or it may happen in a heartbeat.  The point is that there is an option open to resist temptation by denying lust its free reign.  Lust is not sin, and we are not doomed to be victims of our lusts.  Jesus Christ died and rose to deliver us from that fate, and whoever calls upon Him when in such straits will be saved from falling.


     The thing to bear in mind when dealing with "besetting sins" is that the Christian cannot remain static.  I do not say we should not, but that we cannot-- it is impossible.  The lie is that "here we go again... same old--same old... I haven't changed... I still commit the same sin(s)."  Don't you believe it!  Eternity holds promises of wonders we cannot imagine, but right now we exist in the framework of time, and time progresses!

     If you have committed the same sin a thousand times, and every time you have confessed that sin with the prayer and intention that you will never do it again, but then you do it again, that is NOT the same!  That is the 1,001st time.  No, I'm not joking: God is looking at your heart, not at a scorecard-- this is not a game, but life for real and in earnest.  You are NOT where you were the last time.  You have progressed!  You may have failed again, but again God shows His faithfulness, and again you trust in His mercy and loving kindness, and have hope in His promises, which He keeps again.

     There is one who delights in discouraging you, and his favorite (and easiest) tactic is to get you to look at yourself:  My sins, my failure, my doubts, my shortcomings, my unbelief, my faithlessness, my-oh-my-oh-my!!!  You will always be disappointed by looking at yourself until you learn to see yourself as Jesus sees you, and you will only learn to see as He sees by looking at Him.  
     Turn your eyes upon Jesus,
               Look full in His wonderful face,
                    And the things of earth will grow strangely dim,
                         In the light of His glory and grace.

     I do not belittle the power of sin nor that of the enemy of God's throne; rather I magnify the power of God, whose grace is poured out unto us through His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ:  Grace that is greater than ALL our sin!


     Finally, to answer Summer's question:  It was not the collapse of the house that george built that was directly responsible for my return to Christ, but the timing worked out that way, and it was a factor in my recovery, primarily through this BB.  During that 20-some years I learned to cope with guilt, shame, depression, anxiety-- I use the term "learned" advisedly-- I am still learning, and I don't expect to attain sinless perfection any time this week .

     Yeah, I "sort of gave up on Christianity."  That was because my idea of what Christianity consists of was flawed; because my concept of who Christ is was wrong-- I had seen an inkling, but had lost sight of Him in a flurry of religious activity and regulations.  When all of that came to nothing, I thought that Christianity was awash.  But Christianity was fine; it was I who was astray, and carrying a lot of baggage.  My journey then became like that of the settlers moving west in their wagon trains: I kept having to lighten my load to get across the rivers and over the mountains.  I didn't know then what I know now: that Christ was with me all the way.

God bless,
al



     

[M2]

Mark et al,

In the sermon on the Mount the Lord speaks of guilt associated with what goes on in the heart apart from outward actions.

According to what you are saying, the homosexual cannot help his 'feelings', but he should not act upon them.  Am I correct?

Marcia

[al Hartman]

Mark et al,

In the sermon on the Mount the Lord speaks of guilt associated with what goes on in the heart apart from outward actions.

According to what you are saying, the homosexual cannot help his 'feelings', but he should not act upon them.  Am I correct?

Marcia

     As the al in "et al," I'll take a stab at that:

     As we read in Matthew 5:1, Jesus looked at the multitudes that followed him, then went up into a mountain and sat down.  After that, his disciples came to him, and he spoke to them.  It is important to know that Jesus' words in these three chapters are addressed to his disciples.  Even though his words sometimes affect others, they are not directed to others.  "The people" also heard him speak, and were afterward astonished at what he had said (7:28-29).

     Because he spoke to his followers, we find no mention of homosexual lust or sin in this "sermon," because among them the condemnation of sodomy was a foregone conclusion by virtue of God's Law as expressed in the scriptures, and Jesus makes plain that the Law stands firm (5:18).  But as this message has been preserved for all time, we still have the question supposing a homosexual person receives new birth in Christ but doesn't lose those "feelings"-- what then?

     The answer may be drawn from 5:27-30, wherein Jesus deals with the lust of a man for a woman.  Jesus does not declare lust to be sin, but he condemns intentional lust.  Men are not told they cannot look at a woman at all, but that they are to hold a tight rein on their imaginations (cf 2Cor.10:5), and not pursue evil thoughts.  He does not say that a man's hand or his eye does offend him, but that if it did, it had better be cut off.  How much more essential then the cutting off of all offending actions of the mind!  Jesus doesn't advocate physical maiming, but illustrates the essentiality of violence toward sin to combat the violence of sin (cf 11:12).  Lust is to be recognized as the gateway to sin-- it is to be banished, not entertained.

     The "sermon on the mount" has probably been as misunderstood in New Testament times as were the old covenants before it:  The standard of perfection is established, not because God ever expected that man could achieve it, but so that man could see how great is his need of grace, without which he can never hope to satisfy God's demands.  The natural man uses the Law of God to condemn God as being too harsh and hard, unreasonable, unacceptable.  God uses adamance to press proud, arrogant man to the point of necessity and willingness to accept the gift of almighty love.

     See how much of these three chapters addresses prayer (6:5-18, 25-33; 7:7-11).  At the very root of obeying God is seeking him.  How else shall any (you; I), being imperfect, become perfect unless God perfect him?  The natural man (the old man) cannot fathom this reality, and looks at the words of Jesus as a standard to which he can rise.  Any failure to do so is summarily dismissed or excused.  The spiritually reborn knows-- both acknowledges and accepts-- that he can do the will of God only by the grace of God (Phil.4:13).

     The natural mind sees Jesus' words "Come unto me..." (11:28-30) as representing a long uphill trek; a struggle to do, in the strength of one's own power, all the things that must be done to satisfy God.  The concept is one of working one's way to God.  But the words were not shouted from afar.  Rather, it is a gently stated invitation-- not a struggle but a simple facing movement: Turn your eyes upon Jesus...  He is Emmanuel: God with us.  When by sin oppressed, come to him for rest: Our God is able to deliver thee.

al

[vernecarty]

    The "sermon on the mount" has probably been as misunderstood in New Testament times as were the old covenants before it:  The standard of perfection is established, not because God ever expected that man could achieve it, but so that man could see how great is his need of grace, without which he can never hope to satisfy God's demands.  The natural man uses the Law of God to condemn God as being too harsh and hard, unreasonable, unacceptable.  God uses adamance to press proud, arrogant man to the point of necessity and willingness to accept the gift of almighty love.
al

WORD...!!!       'NUFF SAID!
Verne

[Mark C.]

Hi Marcia, and "et al" (with possible reference to my posted shark pic. )!

  Very good question Marcia, and one that I hoped someone would ask.

  Al did a good job of explaining how we might look at all of these "Kingdom" standards of righteousness that Jesus was teaching on in the Gospels.  It is important to put these verses in the context of the NT to get a balanced view.

  Specifically, in light of the verses from the Sermon on the Mount that you mention:

   But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

  Personal honesty is as important as any other tool of interpretation we might use in our Bible study.
 
 Most normal men (including regenerated ones) have a naturally strong visual attraction to good looking women; it's the way we're made.  Is Jesus in the vs. above asking us to change that basic instinct?  Should the Christian seek to totally repress any such natural response?

  Honesty will answer the above question easily for most men, as we will have to admit to this built in attraction.  It is much better to honestly admit this then to play the dishonest game of denying the truth, even if the denial is based in a desire to obey God's command.

  So why did Jesus teach this?  The best answer that I heard came from a Jewish man on the radio who explained the Hebrew concept of the heart, and thus the correct definition of terms re. this passage.

  The Jewish understanding of the word "heart" did not mean just the natural desire within alone to want something, but along with this a willingness to achieve the end of that lust.

  Examples:
  A man desires to seek revenge on an individual by shooting him, and plans it out "in his heart", but on firing his gun it jams.  He didn't murder, but it was in his heart to do so, and thus falls under the definition of equal guilt that Jesus provides in the above vs.
  Another example of this would be a yet unrealized desire to commit adultery that is constrained by the fear of punishment, so I constantly fantisize my lust.  This is a form of pornographic addiction that is very damaging to the soul and would fall under Jesus use of the phrase, "in his heart."

  I am cut off on the freeway by some idiot who flips me off when I honk my horn at him (an almost daily experience for me) and then this guy has to suddenly break and the thought comes into my mind, "maybe I'll just not try to avoid running into the back of him by braking, etc.", but intstead of my strong emotions decide to change lanes quickly, thus avoiding him.

  In the last (very true) scenario my heart was actually in the right place, even though my emotions were surging toward murder within, because my choice was to do what was right.  

   In other words, choice determines where one's heart really is at, and spares most men the negative title of "adulterer" because of their instinctive attraction to the fairer sex.

   "Self control" is one of the fruits of the Spirit in our lives.  If at salvation, or at a later stage on the Christian journey  , I am supposed to have attained to a completely pure heart, why is there the need to control anything in my soul?  

   Human desire is normal, and can not be erradicated except by death.  As Christians we have all the same human desires that the unregenerated have.  Because of inherited sin natures these desires can develop into unhealthy inclinations, of which homosexuality is one.  It is next to impossible to change those aberrant tendicies, and this why the homosexual is in such a difficult situation.

  For Christians to contanstly pound the drum of, "God demands that you become normal" in re. to the homosexual only drives them further away from the help they desperately need.  Yes, God calls this sin, but this is exatly why Jesus came and died for man!

  What then of the regenerated homosexual who still has these same desires, but is able to control them via the Spirit?  I would say that this would put such an individual in the same boat with the hetero. who avoids adultery "in his heart", by choosing not to obey it's temptations.

  There is a difference between the two above, in that one desire is normal, and the other not so, and because of this help should be sought to deal with these desires.  I will also say, that the same kind of help should be sought for those addicted to hetero. porn, etc.  

  There needs to be more explanation provided for how I see the treatment in the above paragraph, because it does deal with "inner life", and I don't mean to leave the impression that we should ignore our emotional health.

  My point in the above post is an attempt to understand what Jesus may have meant by the vs. in question re. the often erroneous conclusion drawn from it.  To labor under guilt concerning one's normal human feelings is not a burden that Jesus wants us to carry through our life.

                                  God Bless,  Mark C.

[al Hartman]

                WORD...!!!      
                Verne

     Verne, I have to confess to a "control issue"-- I can't control the urge to say that your quote, above, is "AMEN !!!" in KJV.

     We three seem to be in agreement, and Mark has gone far in covering details that I have not.  His point about Jesus' meaning in referring to what a man does in his heart is validated by these words later in the same "sermon":  Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth... But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven... For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. Matt.6:19-21     By treasuring the wonderful Son of God, who gave himself so lovingly and freely for us, we focus our hearts on him and, thus, upon the things that please him.  As we continually offer him our hearts, he accepts them and remakes them into reflections of his own great heart: pure, righteous, holy, and pleasing to our Father in heaven.

     To further clarify another point, Mark said:

 There is a difference between the two above, in that one desire is normal, and the other not so...

     Because the word "normal" is used so arbitrarily, and its definition is so oft disputed, I point, instead, to Paul's use of the term "natural" within the same context of which we speak. (Rom.1:26-27).  The clear point is that homosexual desire/behavior defies God's design for human nature.  In other words, even the natural (unregenerate) mind, when functioning as designed by its Creator, will acknowledge and accept the purposeful destiny of gender.

     Finally, in reference to Mark's suggestions that

...help should be sought to deal with these desires.

and

 There needs to be more explanation provided for... treatment...

I will express my opinion that, while there may be similar elements, each case involves an individual and therefore requires individual solutions.  By this I mean that there is no "cure" for homsexuality, nor for any other condition of the soul, except for the personal intervention of the Lord Jesus Christ.  How one decides and proceeds to be related to the Son of God will determine the rate and degree of deliverance received.  Jesus has done the work already.  It has only to be applied.

     Any saint who would endeavor to help someone through such a situation must proceed humbly, prayerfully, and without preconception of how God will work, but asking and fully trusting that God will work.  Expect great things-- we serve a great Lord God.

al

[M2]

Hi Marcia, and "et al" (with possible reference to my posted shark pic. )!

  Very good question Marcia, and one that I hoped someone would ask.

  Al did a good job of explaining how we might look at all of these "Kingdom" standards of righteousness that Jesus was teaching on in the Gospels.  It is important to put these verses in the context of the NT to get a balanced view.

  Specifically, in light of the verses from the Sermon on the Mount that you mention:

   But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

  Personal honesty is as important as any other tool of interpretation we might use in our Bible study.
 
 Most normal men (including regenerated ones) have a naturally strong visual attraction to good looking women; it's the way we're made.  Is Jesus in the vs. above asking us to change that basic instinct?  Should the Christian seek to totally repress any such natural response?

  Honesty will answer the above question easily for most men, as we will have to admit to this built in attraction.  It is much better to honestly admit this then to play the dishonest game of denying the truth, even if the denial is based in a desire to obey God's command.

  So why did Jesus teach this?  The best answer that I heard came from a Jewish man on the radio who explained the Hebrew concept of the heart, and thus the correct definition of terms re. this passage.

  The Jewish understanding of the word "heart" did not mean just the natural desire within alone to want something, but along with this a willingness to achieve the end of that lust.

  Examples:
  A man desires to seek revenge on an individual by shooting him, and plans it out "in his heart", but on firing his gun it jams.  He didn't murder, but it was in his heart to do so, and thus falls under the definition of equal guilt that Jesus provides in the above vs.
  Another example of this would be a yet unrealized desire to commit adultery that is constrained by the fear of punishment, so I constantly fantisize my lust.  This is a form of pornographic addiction that is very damaging to the soul and would fall under Jesus use of the phrase, "in his heart."

  I am cut off on the freeway by some idiot who flips me off when I honk my horn at him (an almost daily experience for me) and then this guy has to suddenly break and the thought comes into my mind, "maybe I'll just not try to avoid running into the back of him by braking, etc.", but intstead of my strong emotions decide to change lanes quickly, thus avoiding him.

  In the last (very true) scenario my heart was actually in the right place, even though my emotions were surging toward murder within, because my choice was to do what was right.  

   In other words, choice determines where one's heart really is at, and spares most men the negative title of "adulterer" because of their instinctive attraction to the fairer sex.

   "Self control" is one of the fruits of the Spirit in our lives.  If at salvation, or at a later stage on the Christian journey  , I am supposed to have attained to a completely pure heart, why is there the need to control anything in my soul?  

   Human desire is normal, and can not be erradicated except by death.  As Christians we have all the same human desires that the unregenerated have.  Because of inherited sin natures these desires can develop into unhealthy inclinations, of which homosexuality is one.  It is next to impossible to change those aberrant tendicies, and this why the homosexual is in such a difficult situation.

  For Christians to contanstly pound the drum of, "God demands that you become normal" in re. to the homosexual only drives them further away from the help they desperately need.  Yes, God calls this sin, but this is exatly why Jesus came and died for man!

  What then of the regenerated homosexual who still has these same desires, but is able to control them via the Spirit?  I would say that this would put such an individual in the same boat with the hetero. who avoids adultery "in his heart", by choosing not to obey it's temptations.

  There is a difference between the two above, in that one desire is normal, and the other not so, and because of this help should be sought to deal with these desires.  I will also say, that the same kind of help should be sought for those addicted to hetero. porn, etc.  

  There needs to be more explanation provided for how I see the treatment in the above paragraph, because it does deal with "inner life", and I don't mean to leave the impression that we should ignore our emotional health.

  My point in the above post is an attempt to understand what Jesus may have meant by the vs. in question re. the often erroneous conclusion drawn from it.  To labor under guilt concerning one's normal human feelings is not a burden that Jesus wants us to carry through our life.

                                  God Bless,  Mark C.

Mark C et al,

Thank you.  Driving that truck actually benefits us, because you have all day (and sometimes all week) to think up answers to the hard questions we pose eh??  One thing I know, don't cut off a transport truck because they hate having to downshift once they have gotten up to speed, and they have a very long breaking distance.

Anyway, that was a good clear response to the discussion, and I for one, appreciate it.

Lord bless,
Marcia

[moonflower2]

Me, too.