How Religion Shaped My Life (Part II: the Book of Job)

[al Hartman]

dh,

     I have tried every setting on my printer, but I can still only print your graphic in two dimensions-- do I need an upgrade?

     Seriously, what you expressed as your opinion:

People who really sincerely BELIEVE are kind of like
that in my opinion; they can accurately see "shadows"
of things that are not "of this world".

   ...is pretty much the Bible's "opinion" too.  See Paul's words in 1Corinthians8:2; 13:9-12; also 1John3:2.

al

[dhalitsky]

Al -

Thanks for your reply re Paul.

But here's where it gets tricky a little, cause 500 years
BC, Plato wrote his well-known parable about how
we all live in a cave and can only see shadows of
the real world on the wall of the cave.  And Paul
certainly knew Greek (being originally a Greco-Syrian
Jew before his experience on the road) and therefore
may have known of the parable.  So his words here
may not have been divinely guided.

Of couse, even if Paul did know of Plato's story,
 it could have been divinine guidance that caused
him to remember it and use it appropriately in
a Christian context. so it could be argued you're
right either way.

Anyway, I hope you know my heart's in the right place
and am not trying to be argumentative or back-talk
srcipture just for the sake of doing so.

It's just that the whole "divinely guided Biblical
inerrancy" question is really ripping apart the
Southern Baptist community down here in TN/AL,
and I wish there was a middle ground between
"divinely guided inerrancy" and good scholarship
about the historical contexts of the OT/NT.

Best regards as always
David

[al Hartman]

David,

     There is little doubt that Paul was learned in the Greek philosophers (see Scofield's note on Acts17:28) and, as you point out, that has no bearing on the source of Paul's inspiration except to the fanatic (whether pro- or con- divine inspiration).  The true believer has no compulsion to persuade the skeptic with clever argument.

     Paul would have had no reason to pretend the source of his thinking, as he had no apparent intent of writing a portion of the everlasting bible, just as no author of the bible did.  They wrote for the purposes they stated or implied, having no way of knowing that their works would live beyond their immediate goals.  Surely a few of the works were intended, expected, or hoped by their writers to live on, e.g. the Mosaic law, but it is doubtful that any of them actually had any vision of the far-reaching effect their writings would have...

     Several threads on this board have addressed the inspiration of the scriptures and have hosted some lively debates  One of the most recent can be found on THE BIBLE:  Modern Translations thread at
 http://www.assemblyboard.com/index.php?board=12;action=display;threadid=691;start=75
You may find it interesting.

     Speaking for myself, David, I don't think anybody here has reason to doubt your sincerity...

al

[lenore]

 : Good Evening David:

I agree with AL.

You are apparently a very educated man, who thinking cap is on. And you are allowing us to put our own thinking caps on.

The topics of you and shin, are really causing the spiritual brain juice to flow. Quite frankly. It is helping us to reach deep inside. To seek out the answers that even God is asking us.

Dont forget, The element in faith in something is trust that faith.
God  did not create blind robots to follow him.
He created people who can think, love, and free give those gifts back to him.
Part of that faith is just that faith. But God want faith with legs on it as well.

If I am getting this correctly, It is not God you have the issue with. It is Bible.

My father is not a Christian. He says he doesnt have to go to church to believe in God. He doesnt need anyone to pray for him. Because these churches and the Bible are just man made. He doesnt trust the church or the Bible. According to him they are just crooks. With slanders, scandelous actions of church leaders that has occurred in recent history. He isnt TOTALLY wrong is he.

He deals with God directly.
Remember my Dad is the non Christian saying this.



were can send my two cents. VALUE EXCHANGE BETWEEN CANADA AND USA IS THE SAME!


LENORE

[dhalitsky]

So anyway, here's the deal on my friend from Pennsylvania.

His Mom came of marriageable age right before the Great
Depression really hit hard (for you youngsters out there,
this was around 1928 or so.  She was Protestant from
a middle-class family, not well-to-do but one of the
"respectable" familes in town (she was DAR (Daughters
of the American Revolution.)

She married a guy who was from the same side of the
tracks as she was (the "good" side), but he turned
out to be a real bum who couldn't cope with things
when the Depression really started hitting the area
hard.

So this bum runs off and leaves my friend's mother
stranded. and of course her family doesn't stand
with her because she has created a "scandal".  (They
felt it had to be her fault that the husband ran off.)

So my friend's mother needed a new husband cause
back then women were not being trained  for the
work-force, and even if they were, there was no
work around.  

So there was this Irish-Catholic guy who actually
had a good job as an engineer (not the train-driving
kind, the mechanic kind) on the old Erie-Lackwawanna
line that used to run thru the town.

Now remember, my friend's mother was old-line American
Protestant, and to her, Catholics were not one step better
than blacks or Jews or any other immigrant group
which tended not to run to fair skin.

But she married the Irish Catholic guy cause she had
to for financial reasons, and she never forgave him
for this - that a Catholic could actually help a Protestant
out.

So the way her resentment played out is that she
would argue religion with her husband in front of her
children (my friend and his two brothers) ALL THE TIME.
These arguments never developed into physical abuse,
but according to my friend, there was plenty of verbal
abuse about the Trinity and transubstantiation and
other Protestant-Catholic issues.

So my friend ran away from this into his studies and
eventually became an electrcal engineer and then
got a PhD in a different field which led him to a
professorship at a major university.  In other words
he kept religion entirely out of his life because all
he could remember was the discord betwen his
mother and father.

But the funny thing is - when he got to be in his
late forties/early fifties, he started reading St.
Augustine (the first Catholic "theologian" that we
have a record of - the Church burned the work
of a lot of other folks that we know existed).

And he started telling his friends about these
exercises that St. Augustine told people they
could do if they wanted to hear "the still
small voice of God whispering to them."  In other
words, St. Augustine taught that God is speaking
to everyone all the time, but you have to train
yourself to hear him because he don't yell.
St. Augustine also said (or this is my friend's
interpretation) that this "still small voice" is
what people usually call conscience.  (Marcia -
this is like what you quoted from Pascal about
the vacuum that God is trying to fill.)

So I guess the point of the story is that everyone
has to come to terms with religion at some point
in their life, no matter what their background is.

And that's why I think this board is a neat place to
hang-out - cause it helps people do that.

 

[summer007]

David, How did you find out about the board?? or were you ever part of the Assm? or affliated ? you mentioned Stephan F. did he refer you? just wonderin. Summer.

[dhalitsky]

summer007 -

I'm sending you a private reply to your question about how I
found out about the board because I don't want to intrude
on the privacy of Stephen Fortescus in even the slightest
way.  If Stephen tells me I can post the reply publicly,
then I will, cause it's kind of a curious coincidence.

Best regards
David

[al Hartman]

Hey Gang,

     What is hilarious to me is that David & I began exchanging messages right after I saw his name as the newest enrollee on the BB & sent him a welcoming message...

     Since he offered his webpage on his BB profile, I looked him up on the web.  As soon as I realized how far beyond my ken he is in science & math, I sent an e-mail to Stephen Fortescue (this BB's resident genius) asking if he would mind my referring David to him if conversations involving math or science should arise...

     I haven't heard back from Stephen yet, which I now surmise is because he & David were already in communication.  Unlike David, I don't at all mind imposing upon Stephen because he used to live in the brothers' house I oversaw and, according to my records, he is still behind in his stewardships!

  ;)al

[summer007]

Yes Al, I would call a House Meeting...let him pick fom a list of Consequences...how about detailing your Car for starters. Is'nt it amazing with all those consequences there were never any rewards...or maybe the reward was the title. ha..Or just being in the Land of Perfect. When I left I just wanted to be free to make a mistake...(and I certinly have made up for lost-time)....A former head-steward to the Sisters.... p.s. I was always nice in fact I left after the sisters came to me and felt they were being picked on by leadership. I confronted them.. my first major problem with them and my Last!!!!

[sfortescue]

I know that my memory of names isn't all that good, but as far as I know, I hadn't heard of the name Halitsky before replying to a couple of his posts on sci.math.  Although, years ago, I used to work for the Calabasas laser printer controller division of Genicom.  The company acquired another company, Rastek Corporation, doing similar work in Huntsville and moved the Calabasas division there to merge with Rastek.  I don't know whether David Halitsky might have run into any of those Genicom people that I used to work with.  Perhaps he merely did an internet search for my name after seeing my post to sci.math.

The picture of the projection of a 5-dimensional hypercube doesn't look like it is scaled quite right.  Coxeter gives a rule for checking the scaling of that kind of picture.  The rule is called the eutactic star theorem.  What Coxeter had to say on that is one of the things that David Halitsky was asking about on sci.math.

Although the picture isn't a correct projection from 5 dimensions to 2 dimensions, maybe it could be considered correct by calling it a projection from 6 dimensions to 2 dimensions of a 5-dimensional hypercube.  The extra dimension provides another degree of freedom so that the projection can come out thinner in one of the directions.

[sfortescue]

The expression "supposedly blasphemous" is consistent with not believing that God exists.  Nothing insults a nonentity.

God cares about how he is portrayed.  That is what his complaint is against the arguments that Job's three friends had given Job.  This is important to remember when reading the book of Job.  His three friends were misrepresenting God's character.

Job 42:7
And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.

God also said that Job was correctly representing his character.  In fact Job says things that are prophetic and point to the coming of the messiah.


Job 6:2; 7:21
Oh that my grief were throughly weighed, and my calamity laid in the balances together!  ... And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away my iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.

Then, speaking of the messiah:

Isaiah 53:4-6
Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.  But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.  All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.


Job 14:7,14
For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease.  ... If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

John 11:25-26
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?


Job 16:19,21
Also now, behold, my witness is in heaven, and my record is on high.  ... O that one might plead for a man with God, as a man pleadeth for his neighbour!

Job 19:23-26
Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book! that they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever!  For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: and though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

Hebrews 7:23-25
And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: but this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.  Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Hebrews 9:24; 10:12
For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: ... but this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;


Job 23:3,6
Oh that I knew where I might find him! that I might come even to his seat!  ... Will he plead against me with his great power?  No; but he would put strength in me.

Isaiah 6:1,5-7
In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the LORD sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.  ... Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.  Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar: and he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.

[summer007]

Stephen, Thanks for straightening all that out. If I re-call did'nt you design some of the computer games??? I could be wrong! Have you ever heard of 'Star-Craft'? My sons favorite...He and his friends play on-line. What do you think of this game? That is if your familair with it. Thanks Summer.

[al Hartman]

Stephen,

     Thank you for that excellent compilation of scripture.  You are hereby excused from all outstanding stewardships & consequences.

God bless,
al

P.S.-- I have absolutely no idea what you were talking about in your dissertation on the five- and six-dimensional projections, but thanks for that, too.  Obviously Summer gets it!

[sfortescue]

It would seem, based on searching the internet, that Rastek Corporation is no longer in business.  The search turned up a resume of the director of the Calabasas division of Genicom at the time of the move.  It says that he was at Rastek from 1992 to 1995.  I wonder if 1995 is when Rastek Corporation ended?  The search also turned up a Rastek Technologies based in Pakistan which is obviously a different company.

Genicom merged with Tally to form TallyGenicom on August 7, 2003.

Stephen, Thanks for straightening all that out. If I re-call did'nt you design some of the computer games??? I could be wrong! Have you ever heard of 'Star-Craft'? My sons favorite...He and his friends play on-line. What do you think of this game? That is if your familair with it. Thanks Summer.

There was someone that I helped with some algorithms, who wrote some video games for the Atari home computer.  I wrote a Basic program for a simplified variant of the Minesweeper program, and a program for a Go board.  I haven't yet worked out how to put any kind of scoring or strategy into the Go program.  In general, I don't have all that much interest in video games.

[M2]

So anyway, here's the deal on my friend from Pennsylvania.
....
And he started telling his friends about these
exercises that St. Augustine told people they
could do if they wanted to hear "the still
small voice of God whispering to them."  In other
words, St. Augustine taught that God is speaking
to everyone all the time, but you have to train
yourself to hear him because he don't yell.
St. Augustine also said (or this is my friend's
interpretation) that this "still small voice" is
what people usually call conscience.  (Marcia -
this is like what you quoted from Pascal about
the vacuum that God is trying to fill.)

So I guess the point of the story is that everyone
has to come to terms with religion at some point
in their life, no matter what their background is.

And that's why I think this board is a neat place to
hang-out - cause it helps people do that.

Hi David,

Since you are well read, I hope that you won't mind if I quote from the Bible.  Romans 1 makes a good point that nature itself declares the existence of God. Rom 1:20 "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made"  The wonder and beauty of nature points to the Artist and Creator God.  When you admire a painting or a sculptor or even a piece of music, what makes it even more fascinating is that someone actually painted, or sculpted, or composed it.

The conscience, again I quote from Romans 1:19 "because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them."

This is a brief answer, but others might be able to elaborate better.

Lord bless,
Marcia