One for TomM: ChristJesus and the Dance of the Honeybees

[dhalitsky]

Tom M. recently  opined that Dostoyevsky's return to a religious world-view was just "common sense", cause _there can't be laws without a lawgiver.

I have thought in recent days a lot about this re mark, cause it goes to the question of where our "moral sense" comes from, if not from some Creator.
And if I don't have a good answer, I gotta rethink a lot of my inital assumptions/

And the best I can come up with is an analogy to the well-known and well-documeted "dance of the honeybee". For those of you not familiar with thos remarkable biological fact, a honeybee who has returned from finding a new source of honey-making clover (or whatever) will do a dance on the side of the hive to let the rest of the hive know how to get to the clover.

I see Christ returning from the desert (where the devil laid the three temptations on him) in exactly this way - all he was trying to do was let the rest of the hive know where they could find the clover.

And if this analogy reverberates with anyone out there, I would ask them whether:

a) they think the dance of the honeybee implies a Creator;

b) if not, why they think the dance of ChristJesus does.

I am not asking this question to offend nor to instigate; further, for anyone willing to think seriously about this question, an appropriate context for the question is provided by a wonderful short poem by the San Franscisco "beat" poet Lawrence Ferlinghetti. I forget the name of the poem, but it's stand out line was:

"Christ was crucified on the Cadillac tree."

(This poem is also relevant to summer007's last post to the "Grace vs
Works thread.)

Best regards to all
Dave

[Jem]

How can anyone be willing to think about this question--in a Ferlinghetti context no less--seriously?

Seriously.

[dhalitsky]

Jem -

Thanks for taking the time to respond.  

I posted the same question to a secular opinion board at which there is very small and very beleaguered group of traditional Christians.  One of them responded to the question as shown below (beneath the asterisks), so there are some people who consider the question serious enough to answer.  I am not saying this in any sarcastic or unfriendly way, just as a response to your question.

Best regards
Dave

***************************************************************

>>I have thought in recent days a lot about this rremark, cause it goes to the question of where our "moral sense" comes from, if not from some Creator.<<

I say it is written in the hearts of men by the Creator. It is part of who we are.

Romans 2:14-15
"For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them"

>>…anyone out there, I would ask them…why they think the dance of Christ Jesus implies a creator?<<

I think the 40 days and the temptation is not thee moment of Christ giving us the keys to the kingdom. It is one of many. Nor do I see it profoundly implying a creator to the doubter. Elsewhere, Jesus addresses their unbelief.

John 10:37-38
"If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father."

Jesus performed signs and wonders, primarily because he knew that most people would not put faith in his words alone. Which is why I object to those who say our faith is a blind faith, merely built upon words. No, the signs and wonders of Jesus validate His Words, as do the signs and wonders of his select faithful that came after him.


Also: I see nothing unique about the honeybee dance (although quite interesting) because almost all animals instinctively act not on their own behalf but on behalf of the good of others. (thanks to the Creator, again.)

**************************************************************

[Joe Sperling]

David----

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  The same was in the beginning with God. ALL THINGS were made by him, and without him was not ANYTHING made that was made"(John 1:1-3).

There is a HUGE difference between the bee dance, and the ONE who created it. Jesus wasn't doing "a dance" to show where the clover is---because HE IS the clover. An interesting study is to see just how perfectly bees construct their honeycombs. It is mathematic perfection and shows the distinct mark of a Creator. many things in nature prove to us there is a God beyond a shadow of a doubt.

--Joe

[dhalitsky]

Joe -

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

Like Tom's original point re "laws and the lawgiver", it gives me something to think about.

Assuming you're right, for the sake of discussion, I would ask you the following question: when did He realize He was the honey ?  If He was born with this knowledge, why the need for the desert sojourn and the 3 temptations?
I have always assumed that it was in the desert that he realized who he was.

Again, no sacrilege intended - really wanna know.

Anyway, thanks again for not dismissing the question.
Dave

[Joe Sperling]

David---

I am no theologian, but I will explain as I understand it. Adam and Eve fell due to temptation by the devil. Jesus(God made flesh) came to the earth as both God and man---a bridge between God and man--being both Divine and human. He came to live a perfect life, and then offer himself up as a sacrifice for the sins of the world.

It was necessary he be tempted as a human being by the devil, just as Adam was tempted. Adam was tempted though in a lush garden of paradise---Jesus was tempted in a desert after not eating for 40 days.
The devil tempted him physically, emotionally and spiritually, with the strongest temptations he could muster--failed, and then departed. The Bible says that Jesus was tempted with everything that we all are, yet he never sinned.

Jesus did not come to some "realization" by being in the desert. He was in the desert because it was necessary to fulfil his roll as the "Son of man". Just as it was necesarry he be baptized(though not a sinner), and finally crucified(though not a criminal in any way). When Jesus was 12 years old, it says in Luke, Mary looked for her son and found him in the Temple. Jesus said to her "Know ye not I must be about my Father's business?"  Jesus knew when he was 12 years old who he was, and what he needed to do.

Any "theologians" out there can jump in---but that's how I understand it David. i appreciate all of your questions and comments.

take care, Joe

[dhalitsky]

Joe S -

You write:

"
When Jesus was 12 years old, it says in Luke, Mary looked for her son and found him in the Temple. Jesus said to her "Know ye not I must be about my Father's business?"  Jesus knew when he was 12 years old who he was, and what he needed to do.
"

Great scripture-spot! (seriously!)

But assuming you are intepreting the passage correctly, He knew that His Father would tempt Him and that He would successfully resist?  Or just that His Father would tempt him?

Again, am confused, am not quibbling.  
I don't understand.

Best
Dave

[summer007]

Dave,  I think you know most of the answers to the questions you are posing. They are all very insidious, seductive and enticing. While your waiting to entrapp each and every answer, as no-one is going to give you the answer your seeking. Each one goes to the edge with your questions, but no-one has yet fallen off so to speak...What is it your looking for? Or are you just having fun? Playing the Devils advocate? Summer.

[Oscar]

Tom M. recently  opined that Dostoyevsky's return to a religious world-view was just "common sense", cause _there can't be laws without a lawgiver.

I have thought in recent days a lot about this re mark, cause it goes to the question of where our "moral sense" comes from, if not from some Creator.
And if I don't have a good answer, I gotta rethink a lot of my inital assumptions/

And the best I can come up with is an analogy to the well-known and well-documeted "dance of the honeybee". For those of you not familiar with thos remarkable biological fact, a honeybee who has returned from finding a new source of honey-making clover (or whatever) will do a dance on the side of the hive to let the rest of the hive know how to get to the clover.

I see Christ returning from the desert (where the devil laid the three temptations on him) in exactly this way - all he was trying to do was let the rest of the hive know where they could find the clover.

And if this analogy reverberates with anyone out there, I would ask them whether:

a) they think the dance of the honeybee implies a Creator;

b) if not, why they think the dance of ChristJesus does.

I am not asking this question to offend nor to instigate; further, for anyone willing to think seriously about this question, an appropriate context for the question is provided by a wonderful short poem by the San Franscisco "beat" poet Lawrence Ferlinghetti. I forget the name of the poem, but it's stand out line was:

"Christ was crucified on the Cadillac tree."

(This poem is also relevant to summer007's last post to the "Grace vs
Works thread.)

Best regards to all
Dave

Dave,

I have very little time so this will be very brief.

The "argument from design" has been around for a long time.  19th Century skeptics like David Hume thought they had dismissed it by their arguments.  (which they did not actually succeed in doing, but that is another discussion.)

Anyway, discoveries about the ever increasing and mind boggling amount of finely designed characteristics of both the micro and macro universes have brought the argument from design back, big time.  Books and professional journals in astronomy and cosmology carry articles by well known scientists about the "Anthropic Principle" and what to do with it.    

The Anthropic Principle is the name these folks have given to the fact that the universe seems to be designed for human life.  I am not just talking about Christians here.  Atheists are talking about it too...and trying to find a way around it as usual.

In the micro universe the amount of design is mind boggling as well.  Increasing technological sophistication  has revealed levels of complexity that Darwin never dreamed of.

I know a Christian with a PhD. in Biology who began searching for God when he was a Darwinist.  As a graduate student he was researching cell structure in micro-organisms and began to realize..."these things didn't come into existence by accident."

His search led him to Jesus of Nazareth, who is the Christ.

So, yes, the bee's dance implies a creator.

Thomas Maddux

[dhalitsky]

summer007 -

You write:

"
Dave,  I think you know most of the answers to the questions you are posing. They are all very insidious, seductive and enticing. While your waiting to entrapp each and every answer, as no-one is going to give you the answer your seeking. Each one goes to the edge with your questions, but no-one has yet fallen off so to speak...What is it your looking for? Or are you just having fun? Playing the Devils advocate? Summer.
"

Please see my post to the Matthew 25:40 thread; I believe it will answer these questions you have just asked.

Best regards and in hope of continued exchanges
David

[summer007]

Dave,  What is facinating to me is because you have such a Brilliant mind some of the simple things slip past you. And some of your thought processes are incomprehensible to me, but they are intrieging nonetheless. So I marvel at your un-belief, not in an insulting way. I think your somewhat sincere. Salvation is a free gift, if you want it take it, but you seem to frustrate the Grace of God, but then again "not all men have Faith". I recieved Christ at about 3 years old...it made perfect sence to me then, as it does now. I dont understand it all, and thats where Faith has to step in for me. I know you'd probibly prefer responces from great minds like Stephen F and Tom M, etc. But I'm just trying to understand...Summer.

[Joe Sperling]

Dave---

Again, I'm no theologian. The dual nature of Christ in many ways is a mystery. He was very God of God, and yet very man of man. As very God of God he knew at 12 years old exactly what would pass. But as very man of man these things were "unfolding" to him as he grew.

It is hard to fully understand---it is a concept such as the Trinity, which is very difficult for a finite mind to grasp--or the fact that God has always been, is and will always be. Our finite minds want a beginning and an ending and ask such astounding questions as "Who created God?" because we refuse to believe there are things we simply cannot grasp or understand.

I simply believe what the Bible tells me about Jesus and understand that he is the very Word of God in human flesh. That he came to the earth for one purpose: to die for the sins of mankind, and to overcome the works of the devil--to lead all "captives" to liberty. The motivation for this was his great love for us. No logic can explain a love like that--no thesis, or scientific study will suffice. Only the simple fatih of a child-like heart can grasp it. That's why Paul said "The preaching of the cross is foolishness to them who perish"---it is a message accepted by faith alone.

--Joe

[summer007]

Dave,  Not that you asked, but I'll give you an idea as to how I logically came to belief at such a young age. In order for me to comprehend I had a vivid picture of the universe, the starry sky at night, and Jesus in the middle with out-stretched arms to me, at any minute the earth would explode, in that case, I could see no one could save me but the Lord. For you, if you knew the earth would explode in 5 to 10 minutes would you fall into the arms of the Lord, or could you find another way of Salvation? Would Paul's epistles still be tripping you up? Please remember this was my thought at 3-4 years old after going over psalm 23, and psalm 100 with my Dad who was a sunday school teacher, I was quizzed after each sunday school class on the way home, so I knew I had to pay attention and know my answers. I usually wanted to go horsebackriding, and my Dad would say can't you give God one hour for all his blessings to you, to thank him. (Guilt) I remember the felt boards and the war stories, wondering why they were doing that, why I had to know this. But I felt I loved the Lord....Just thought I'd give you some back-ground...Summer.

[dhalitsky]

summer007 -

nope, you're wrong; SF and TM may know more formal theology than you, but the question of how a person acquires an internalized relationship with ChristJesus is a "heart" question as well as a "head" question; some might say it is only a "heart" question.

Also, you realize I hope, that just as it would be very difficult for you to morph from believer to non-believer because you internalized ChristJesus at 3, it is equally difficult for me to morph from non-believer to believer because my Dad taught me to rely on one's own mind and one's own mind alone in matters of judgment.  (of course, he assumed that he was prepping my mind appropriately by his own example of how to lead an upright life without benefit of belief.)

Best regards
Dave

[dhalitsky]

Joe S -

You may be aware that there are many Roman Catholics who long for the days of Masses in Latin rather than English, etc. (I believe Mel Gibson and his father are among these.)

Their reasoning is simply that they loved NOT understanding the Latin, cause they loved the MYSTERY it added to their religious experience.

I mean no offense, but I CANNOT believe that ChristJesus intended for so-called "theologians" from 50AD to 2000AD to put "mysteries" such as the Trinity and the duality of His nature between Him and all of the "us" over the past 1950
years.

So I gotta try and understand as best as I can WITHOUT ever saying, "OK, here's something I'll accept even though I can't continuously and permanently grasp it."

I wish you good fortune in your spiritual journey, and I hope this feeling is reciprocated.

Best regards
Dave