While It Is Yet Called Today...

[Elizabeth H]

Manners matter. Even on a bb. This has been discussed here (at length!) many times before. Brian has brought it up countless times, especially when he said things like: "Don't post angry!"

We all need to be reminded to be polite, including myself. I realize that I can get sarcastic, esp. when someone claims to have the Final Revelation on something. But ultimately, being right isn't the most important thing. You can be right until you're blue in the face and still be hurtful to someone. I think it's more important to be kind than to be right.

Here's something I found:

"Manners are about showing consideration and using empathy. But they are also about being connected to a common good; they are about being better. Respect and consideration are traditionally due to people for all sorts of reasons, some big, some small." ---Lynn Truss, author of "The Utter Bloody Rudeness of Everyday Life (or Six Good Reasons to Stay Home and Bolt the Door)"

E.

[Oscar]

     
                                                                                                      Part I

Chuck wrote:

Tom wrote:

Tom,


You were obviously so intent on refuting Dillow’s exposition on the Kingdom, that you pulled a couple of sentences out of context and tried to make it sound as if he believes that we are not saved by faith alone.  Anyone who has read the book in its entirety know that this is not true.  But in your endeavor to try to discredit Dillow, you neglected to include the following from the very next page (542).  It reads:

When a man does believe, he is not only unconditionally accepted by the Father, but the benefits of the atonement are extended in his case to protect him from hell.  This extension occurs through the free gift of justification, acquittal at the divine bar of justice.  P. 542 

Does this sound like a man who believes that  “full forgiveness is based on performance of religious duty?”  You erroneously equate Dillow’s admonition for a godly life in Christ (our sanctification, which is conditional), with our salvation by grace through faith (our justification, which is unconditional). This is a basic premise that runs all through the book, that you would have very easily discovered long before you reached page 542.

God bless,

Chuck

Chuck,

You asked me a question in the above post.  You said:

Does this sound like a man who believes that “full fforgiveness is based on performance of religious duty?” 

First, I would point out that what I actually said was that Dillow does not believe in full salvation by grace alone.  Nevertheless, it is quite easy to demonstrate that he does not believe in full forgiveness by grace alone either.  First, however, I will explain my statement that Dillow, (and others who who accept the "Overcomer" teaching), do not believe in full salvation by grace alone.

The real question here is "What is full salvation?"  A few Scriptures will shed some light on the subject.  Full salvation includes:

1. Forgiveness of sins; “In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance of the riches of God’s grace…” (Eph.1:7).

2. Justification; Justification has two aspects, a. We are declared righteous by God. “However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness,” (Romans 4:5).b. God imputes Christ’s righteousness to us. “It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God-that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption,” (I Cor.1:30).

3. Sanctification; “But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God,” (I Cor.6:11).
At salvation, this is our spiritual state.  It is what we are “in Christ.”  It is our true identity.  Because this is true we are admonished to “…continue to "work out your salvation with fear and trembling,” (Phil.2:12).  While in the body, we cooperate with God in a progressive realilzation and manifestation of that spiritual reality.  And we can have confidence that the process will be completed.  First of all, there is the promise of Eph.5:25-27.  “…Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy….”  Second, we are promised that we will be freed from the presence of the sinful tendencies that we struggle against, sin which dwells in our bodies, (Rom.7:23).  “…we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies,” (Rom.8:23). 

4. Glorification: “For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his son…and those he predestined he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified,” (Rom.8:28-30).  Glorification means that…”so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven,” (I Cor.15:49).

5. Sharing in the inheritance of the saints: “…joyfully giving thanks to the Father who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light,” (Col.1:12).

6. Reigning with Christ: “…how much more will those receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ,” (Rom.5:17).

Now this is a pretty minimal description of what “full salvation” means, but the term does mean at least this much. However, it is evident to anyone who reads Dillow’s book that the fundamental reason he wrote it was to deny that this is true.  Instead, he attempts to transfer all of #4, #5, and #6 into the category of rewards for faithful service.  To accomplish this, he is forced to deny much of #1, #2, and #3!!!!


I will complete this in part II

Thomas Maddux

[Oscar]

                                 
                                                                                 Part II


Now, you asked me:

“Does this sound like a man who believes that  “full fforgiveness is based on performance of religious duty?” 

The answer, of course, is yes.  Dillow does not believe in full fogiveness of sins by grace through faith at all. 

“The sacrifice of Christ gives sacrificial protection from the former, (what he calls ‘eternal’ sin), on the basis of faith and the permanent gift of regeneration and justification.  But it does not give sacrificial protection to unconfessed temporal sin.” (P.545).

“Paul speaks of our rewards and punishments within the family of God.  The satisfaction, (there it is again, Catholic satisfaction theory), of Christ unconditionally and irrevocably covers the former but only provisionally covers the latter. We must confess daily to obtain the benefits of having the atonement extended to forgive sin within the family of God.” (P.545).

The man is arguing that we cannot have full forgiveness of sin unless we perform our religious duty of confession every day.  He most definitely bases full forgiveness of sin on performance of religious duty.  He tells us exactly what the duty is.

But what about the problem of unconfessed sin?  No one alive on earth today is free from unconfessed sin!  People who think they can be free from unconfessed sin do not understand sin.  Sin permeates fallen human nature.  Sin dwells in our bodies.  Sometimes, by the empowering of the Holy Spirit, we do some unselfish act for others just as Jesus taught us….and then we are proud of it!!  Selfishness, self-centeredness, lust, covetousness, pride, revenge, hatred, cruelty, unforgiveness….on and on.  These things beset us constantly.  Frequently we are not even aware of it!  If unconfessed sin disqualifies us from #3-#6, no one will ever experience these things!

I would just ask a question of every reader, “Have you confessed every sin you have committed since becoming a Christian?”  John answers the question for us:

“If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us,” (I John 1:.

All of us have flat out forgotten about all sorts of sins.  There is no hope for us in Dillow’s legalism.  But there is in Christ. “But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense-Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.  He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for the sins of the whole world,” (I John 1:1-2).

Blessings

Thomas Maddux

[Uncle Buck]

Uncle Buck---


But when David was walking with God he had the right heart. He wasn't looking to obtain
a crown---he was caring for the sheep. The Lord chose David to replace Saul because of
David's heart---a heart that loved God and hoped in his lovingkindness and mercy. I think
when speaking of "rewards" the motivation is very important. Are we running to obtain some
thing? Or are we running to bring glory to God and for more to throw at the feet of the Lord
on that day?(the saints throw their golden crowns at the feet of Christ)--is the "reward" the crown
itself? Or is the reward to have something to throw at the feet of Christ? By throwing the crowns
at the Lord's feet we are saying that even the very rewards are his, not ours.


--Joe

Joe,
What you are saying reminds me of "The bride eyes not her garment, but her dear bridegrooms face
I will not gaze at glory, but on my king of grace
not at the crown he gives, but on his pierced hands
the lamb is all the glory....
I'm sure when David over complicated his life, he longed to be back in the countryside with the sheep and singing under the stars.

I sure don't miss the over complicated life in the assembly. Were we gluttens for punishment or what !
Buck

 

[vernecarty]

 (If you recall when God "judged" Adam he cursed THE GROUND not ADAM HIMSELF--my own note--Joe).

--Joe

This reminds me of one of Tom and my discussions about the exent of sin's effect in the cosmos.
I believe Tom objected to my idea that the entrie creation was in a fallen condition and made the case that God pronounced the ground, as oppposed to the cosmos, as cursed.
My cosmplogical model is one that recognizes that although sin entered the world (earth) through man, sin did not begin with man's transgression but with Lucifer's.
It seems a stretch that we should imagine there were not cosmoglogical reperrcussions to the sin of angelic beings.
The unvierse is a violent place....both spiritually and physically, as is the earth...
Verne

[vernecarty]

                                 
                                                                                 Part II


“Paul speaks of our rewards and punishments within the family of God.  The satisfaction, (there it is again, Catholic satisfaction theory), of Christ unconditionally and irrevocably covers the former but only provisionally covers the latter. We must confess daily to obtain the benefits of having the atonement extended to forgive sin within the family of God.” (P.545).


Blessings

Thomas Maddux

I have come to the conclusion that people who espouse this line of reasoning have a very low view of the consequence of sin indeed.
There is a profound consequence if Dillow's line of reasoning is correct.
It is inescapable.
The wages of sin is death.
Any sin, that the atonement does not extend to, confessed or not, must necessarily issue in the death of the perpetrator if God's righteous standard is to be upheld.
It seems to me that Dillow is missing some very fundamental tenets of the nature of the propitiation.
If he is right, a lot...., what am I saying....?!! EVERY SINGLE BELIEVER WILL BE CONDEMNED AT THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST!
What mortal is capable of confessing all in his life that fails to meet the Divine standard, which ultimately is what sin is?
The more I think about this, the more startling the concept becomes.
It is because of this very impossibility to often recognize, much less do anything, confession included, about our sinfulness, that made it necessary for the righteousness of Christ to be imputed. This man is scary....
Verne
p.s. the thing I am wondering is whether Dillow tries to meet this standard of daily confession (why not hourly, or by the minute, or better yet by the second...can we make that every pico-second?  ) so that his conscious slate is ever atoned for...wears me out just thinking about it...

[moonflower2]

p.s. the thing I am wondering is whether Dillow tries to meet this standard of daily confession (why not hourly, or by the minute, or better yet by the second...can we make that every pico-second?  ) so that his conscious slate is ever atoned for...wears me out just thinking about it...

I don't know about you, Verne, but I know what I'm going to ask Santa for Christmas: The newest, fastest computer on the market!!  I already type over 60wpm, so that won't be a problem.

Hmmm....maybe I'm looking at a new job.

Hear ye!  Hear ye! Hear ye!  Hear ye!
I'm accepting sin lists, now. Send them to me (after December 25) and I'll get them into the computer faster than......your cat can topple an xmas tree!

[brian]

Manners matter. Even on a bb.

hear hear! all very good points. religious doctrine is a topic of discussion that can stir up passionate debate on the most normal of boards. and this board is anything but normal! seriously tho, while its understandable that someone would take their beliefs very seriously, you have to understand that in a bb discussion other people are going to occasionally misunderstand or misjudge your beliefs. try not to take it personally, and don't get personal yourself! i know thats hard to do with something as personal as religious beliefs, but its the only way to have an open, public discussion about them that doesn't end in flamewars.

i agree with liz, that there are far more important things than being "right", especially when recovering from a group like the assembly.

brian

[vernecarty]

I don't know about you, Verne, but I know what I'm going to ask Santa for Christmas: The newest, fastest computer on the market!!  I already type over 60wpm, so that won't be a problem.

Hmmm....maybe I'm looking at a new job.

Hear ye!  Hear ye! Hear ye!  Hear ye!
I'm accepting sin lists, now. Send them to me (after December 25) and I'll get them into the computer faster than......your cat can topple an xmas tree!

You are also going to need one with a very large hard drive, probably in the terrabytes territory, if you really intend to record and make right all those transgressions.
Since I am not that fast, nor that accurate for that matter, a typist (as many can tell - some people probably think I am dyslexic), you are going to also have to  help me write down my own failings Moonie.
It looks to me like you are going to be real busy for the rest of your life...
Then again we could accept that:

All my sins were laid upon him
Jesus bore them on the tree
God who knew them, laid them on him,
And believeing, thou art free!

I try not to do this too often but let me say something serious.
The fear of sin's consequences is apparently insufficient to keep countless sinners out of hell.
Why do some well-meaning Christians so often attempt to motivate their brethren to a pursuit of holiness with this same cudgel?

Do we not understand that the heart quickened by Divine love begins to fear loss of fellowship with the Saviour more, than some kind of spiritual spanking?

We should turn the hearts of the redeemed to nobler things....

If you love me, keep my commandments...

this means if you don't love Him, you won't...you can't...!


Verne

[moonflower2]

You are also going to need one with a very large hard drive, probably in the terrabytes territory, if you really intend to record and make right all those transgressions.

I figured I'd just email them off real quick into cyberspace to the local Catholic church. Don't they keep lists somewhere?

All my sins were laid upon him
Jesus bore them on the tree
God who knew them, laid them on him,
And believeing, thou art free!

I try not to do this too often but let me say something serious.
The fear of sin's consequences is apparently insufficient to keep countless sinners out of hell.
Why do some well-meaning Christians so often attempt to motivate their brethren to a pursuit of holiness with this same cudgel?

Do we not understand that the heart quickened by Divine love begins to fear loss of fellowship with the Saviour more, than some kind of spiritual spanking?

This is so true. Nothing softens the heart and changes you more than knowing someone loves you, especially to the depths that Jesus showed.

And, if one is in the state of adultery, there is no fellowship, no revelation of Himself.   

We should turn the hearts of the redeemed to nobler things....

If you love me, keep my commandments...

this means if you don't love Him, you won't...you can't...!

Verne

[Oscar]

Verne,

You said:

I try not to do this too often but let me say something serious.
The fear of sin's consequences is apparently insufficient to keep countless sinners out of hell.
Why do some well-meaning Christians so often attempt to motivate their brethren to a pursuit of holiness with this same cudgel?

That is a very interesting question and very important.  I have been mulling over a post that discusses this.  However, I will be teaching on Sunday in our adult sunday school class.  I must devote time to that first. 

My text, btw, is Hebrews 4:15-5:10.  A glorious consideration.

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux

[vernecarty]

Verne,

You said:
That is a very interesting question and very important.  I have been mulling over a post that discusses this.  However, I will be teaching on Sunday in our adult sunday school class.  I must devote time to that first. 

My text, btw, is Hebrews 4:15-5:10.  A glorious consideration.

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux

Would you consider posting your thoughts?


...desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

Now I know that Hebrews may be viewed by some as strong meat, but I am sure you will be able to cut it into small and digestible pieces...! 

Verne

p.s would it not be great if regular exposition of the Word became part and parcel of the BB dynamic?
the Word is where true spiritual life resides!
The one caveat is that it of course should be fresh, insightful edifying and sound...no stale warmed- over leavings of the effort of others mind you...

[vernecarty]

I am really looking forward to reading Tom's post on Hebrews.
After all is said and doen about inheritance and the like, the bottom line is that it is the Spirit of God that is responsible for applying to our lives the benefits of salvation.
The key instrument he employs in this objective is the Word of God.

If you want to inherit, you will have to have spiritual nourishment.


The enemy of our souls is well aware of this.
The ground on which you will face the fiercest and most cunning opposition from him is in the area of your rcommitment to the Word of God, more that any other.

If you want to inherit, you have to undertand a thing or two about warfare.

You have to learn to fight!

Have you ever made a committment to spend time daily in God's Word?
Have you ever made a commitment to read God's Word daily to your children?
Have you ever made a commitment to try and commit to memory some passage of Scripture?

How have you done?

Most of you know me well enough to know that I am not talking about some sort of slavish legalism.
I am merely recounting the real-life experience of every saint of God who has a desire to pursue Him.

What I am saying is familiar terrotory to every spiritual warrior.

Too many Christians don't even know there is a war going on...


The book of Joshua is filled with incredible principles regarding how we secure the inheritinace and I think is the Old Testament counterpart to the remarkable picture of the contest in the heavenly places presented to us in Ephesians.

God's instruction to Joshua as regards the prospects of his success are straighforward. :

Only be thou strong and very courageous, that thou mayest observe to do according to all the law, which Moses my servant commanded thee: turn not from it to the right hand or to the left, that thou mayest prosper whithersoever thou goest.....

You want to inherit? 

You won't unless you are fed. You won't unless you are armed!


...and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Verne

[al Hartman]

Most of you know me well enough to know that I am not talking about some sort of slavish legalism.

When I was in the assy, and for most of my adult life, slavish legalism was the only version I knew.

I am merely recounting the real-life experience of every saint of God who has a desire to pursue Him.

I haven't yet come up with an adequate description of what constituted my desire during all that time, but the pursuit of Christ was buried within a heap of other motivations, none of which was worthy of Him.

What I am saying is familiar terrotory to every spiritual warrior.

The pursuit of Christ leads to spiritual warfare just as surely as dawn follows night, and many enter actively into it before they have even realized it.  The young David, tending sheep, wasn't likely to think of himself as a warrior, even when facing the giant.  It was His singular faith in his God's certainty to triumph that enabled and ensured Goliath's defeat.  God is able to do mighty works by the hands of His disciples.

Too many Christians don't even know there is a war going on...

...and because of that, for many of them there is no struggle.  But those who pursue Christ find out, sooner or later, that there is a war, that they are in the midst of it (their very lives the battlefield), and that its outcome is secure.  The stronger our pursuit of Him, the sooner the Light will break upon us...

al

[moonflower2]

Folks,

I want to post something that will add to the discussion on divorce and remarriage.

However, I cannot find the discussion. 

Which thread was it in?

Thanks,

Thomas Maddux

Is this the thread you were looking for, Tom?