While It Is Yet Called Today...

[vernecarty]

Quote from: Chuck Miller on Today at 05:54:39 AM
 
Verne wrote:
So, what is your answer to my question and your own question, Verne?

Chuck

My understanding is that Christ has once suffered for sin.
While I have great difficulty understanding how a person who has been redeemed can knowingly remain in a state of disobedience to God (some may argue that we all do and it is simply a matter of duration and/or degree), the fact remains that many professing Christians do just that.
Clearly God will be faithful to discipline his own.
This is not the same thing as saying that he will exact payment for sin twice.
It may make some of us feel self-righteous that we are not guilty of the sin of adultery, while we may be entirely unaware of the sin of covetousness for example.
Both, as a matter of jurisprudence are worthy of not just exclusion from the kingdom, but of death.
Here is a list of folk who John tells us in Revelation will be excluded from the New Jerusalem:

For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Are people who are believers but have in their lifetime been guilty of murder excluded?
How about former practioners of withcraft? If they are not excluded, why not?
Think about it.
Verne

p.s. Chuck is has really helped me to think about questions like these in terms of God's stages of salvation in the redeemed. All Christians have been delivered from sin's penalty.
Not all Christians currently evidence deliverance from its power.
Every child of God will one day be delivered from sin's very presence.


He breaks the power of cancelled sin... this songwriter was really onto something...! 

[Chuck Miller]

OK, Verne

So what is your answer?

Chuck

[vernecarty]

OK, Verne

So what is your answer?

Chuck

If Christ has paid the penalty for someone's sin, clearly that sin cannot be basis for exclusion from God's kingdom.
Verne
p.s Obviously this discussion is about a very fundamental question of how we view the nature/extent of the doctrine of atonement...

[Chuck Miller]

Verne,

You wrote:

If Christ has paid the penalty for someone's sin, clearly that sin cannot be basis for exclusion from God's kingdom.
Verne

Then what is the meaning of 1 Cor 6:8-10?

On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

Chuck

 

[vernecarty]

Verne,

You wrote:
Then what is the meaning of 1 Cor 6:8-10?

On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

Chuck

 

It means what it says - the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God.
I will assume your failure to quote the following verse is an honest omission.

  And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.   2 Cor 6:11

Context is everything...
Verne

[Chuck Miller]

Verne,

So, let me see if I understand correctly.  In context 2 Cor 6-12 is saying that, a believer who is an adulterer is going to inherit the kingdom?

Chuck

[vernecarty]

Verne,

So, let me see if I understand correctly.  In context 2 Cor 6-12 is saying that, a believer who is an adulterer is going to inherit the kingdom?

Chuck

Unless I misread Paul the tense he used is past.
Chuck, there will be no sinners, (adulterers or any other kind) in heaven....i.e. in the kingdom. 
If you think that the fact that we are not  adulterers qualifies you or me for inheritance and God's kingdom ( and conversely disqualifies another believer who is guilty of this particular sin)...well, that would explain the fundamental difference in our theology on this point...
Just imagine my showing up before God with that list from 1 Cor.6 and informing Him -

I am guilty of none of these things, now let me in...I'm entitled!

Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Verne

p.s. this conversation is a glorious illustration of how counter-intuitive to the rational mind, is the Biblical concept of grace...

p.p.s I am not dismissing your underlying question as to what becomes of a Christian who sins, and sins "badly",  after he is saved (don't make the fatal error of assuming that adultery will disqualify you but pride, which is not mentioned in that verse will not, for example. What disqualifies a person is unrighteousness!!!!)
 I am strenuously contending that you are simply not prepared to tackle that question until and unless you fully understand what being saved actually means...namely, to be declared righteous!!!...and that by Almighty God...

[Uncle Buck]

Obviously this man is better off than his promiscuous wife, and the children are better off with him, but the fact remains that God says that remarriage is an adulterous relationship. (This man would still be a better influence in his children's lives even if he had not remarried.)

Hopon

Are you ultimately saying this man and anyone else who is divorced then remarried is going to hell unless their former spouse dies or they get divoced from their new spouse ?

Buck

[Joe Sperling]

I will share something personally and then ask a question. After I left the Assembly I totally
walked away from God. I felt I was worthless as a christian, so why even try? I got married
to an unsaved woman, who eventually began to see another man and left me. It was a horr-
ible time in my life and completely my fault. I have not married since, but do have a girlfriend
now who believes. What if I wanted to marry her? Am I forbidden to do so?

Perhaps God would say "Joe, too bad. I sure wish you had murdered someone--I could
forgive that mistake. But you have commited the one act that I can never forgive--you
can never marry again, because if you do so you will commit adultery. I know it was all a
terrible mistake for which you have asked forgiveness, but sorry Joe, I can forgive all manner
of laciviousness, blasphemy, and even murder. But I cannot forgive you if you remarry--you
will be disowned by me and cannot inherit the Kingdom.

I made a mistake in my life. If I remarry, to a Christian woman, do you really think God would look
down and frown, and never forgive me for "an adulterous act"? Why can God forgive all other errors made in one's life except this one? Ask yourself that and tell me if you really believe it.

--Joe

[Chuck Miller]

Verne,

You wrote:

If Christ has paid the penalty for someone's sin, clearly that sin cannot be basis for exclusion from God's kingdom.

Then later you wrote:

Chuck, there will be no sinners, (adulterers or any other kind) in heaven....i.e. in the kingdom.

Verne,
Since you contradict yourself in subsequent posts on the same day. I'm having a difficult time determining exactly what it is that you believe. 

I'll repeat my original question and perhaps someone else will be able to answer it. I asked:

In light of the discussion on this BB and others under the subjects "Forget and Forgive"  and "Traversing Purgatory" - is the Christian who divorces and remarries living in adultery?

Chuck Miller

[Uncle Buck]

I believe that C.S. Lewis married a divorced women after he became a Christian. Are there any other prominent Christians that anyone is aware of ?

[hopon]

Hopon

Are you ultimately saying this man and anyone else who is divorced then remarried is going to hell unless their former spouse dies or they get divoced from their new spouse ?

Buck

Buck, if you look back to my original post, you will see, where I highlighted red, that this is not an issue of heaven or hell.

quote author=hopon link=topic=773.msg28072#msg28072 date=1133714501]
This topic has been barely scraped here and I think it is an important one: Remarriage of a Christian.

The Bible calls remarriage adultery. In Malachi, it is mentioned that God hates divorce, which is one issue, but the issue of remarriage seems to go beyond that to a point of adultery, which was punishable by death in the OT.

Death separated the person from God, so, bringing the issue to NT times, might suggest that the remarried person, considering that they are in the constant state of adultery, have removed themselves from the presence of God.

No one who is filled with the spirit would steal, commit murder, commit adultery.

If we are not in God's presence, it would follow that we would not be filled with the spirit, and would actually be "on our own" by choice, and would be left to head knowledge, psychological reasoning, and in fact are looking from the outside, in, to where others who have not made the same choice to remarry, are actually enjoying the reality of God's presence in a closer way. This is not to say that the remarried Christian has lost salvation.
I would like to hear what others have to say about this important issue, without hearing that this is a gg issue which can now be ignored.

[vernecarty]

I will share something personally and then ask a question. After I left the Assembly I totally
walked away from God. I felt I was worthless as a christian, so why even try? I got married
to an unsaved woman, who eventually began to see another man and left me. It was a horr-
ible time in my life and completely my fault. I have not married since, but do have a girlfriend
now who believes. What if I wanted to marry her? Am I forbidden to do so?

Perhaps God would say "Joe, too bad. I sure wish you had murdered someone--I could
forgive that mistake. But you have commited the one act that I can never forgive--you
can never marry again, because if you do so you will commit adultery. I know it was all a
terrible mistake for which you have asked forgiveness, but sorry Joe, I can forgive all manner
of laciviousness, blasphemy, and even murder. But I cannot forgive you if you remarry--you
will be disowned by me and cannot inherit the Kingdom.

I made a mistake in my life. If I remarry, to a Christian woman, do you really think God would look
down and frown, and never forgive me for "an adulterous act"? Why can God forgive all other errors made in one's life except this one? Ask yourself that and tell me if you really believe it.

--Joe

There are two separate issues as I see it.
The first is your marrying an unsaved person in clear contravention of God's Word.
Granted you were discouraged, you still knew better.
I have no doubt that you have confessed that and repented of it and without a doubt God has forgiven you.
It must be obvious to you and everyone else who reads your story that God's forgiveness did not mean you would not suffer consequences for your decision. You should consider the first issue closed for God does.

The second issue is the departure of an unbelieving spouse.
Many Biblical scholars interpret the Christian not being "bound" as is referred to by Paul, as meaning the deserted Christian spouse is free to re-marry.
Now here is the real deal.
When it comes to how and why you should make a decision about this, everything that has been written on this BB about the topic is totally irrelevant. Few of us are in a position to really profit others by engaging in idle speculaton about the condition of the soul of a person who for whatever reason is in a re-marriage situation. My own feeling is unless that person is in a position of spiritual leadership, it is none of our bees wax.
Joe my friend let me give you a word of advice.
There is only One Pperson whose opinion is at all important in all this.
Do not repeat your first error.
This time get His opinion!
Verne

[vernecarty]

I believe that C.S. Lewis married a divorced women after he became a Christian. Are there any other prominent Christians that anyone is aware of ?

Many of us think that Lewis disobeyed Scripture in this marriage.
I am however in no position to declare his inheritance as a child of God null and void, or that he has forfeited the kingdom of God.   
That particular sin, and all the others Lewis ever committed during his life-time is fully atoned for if he was saved, and I believe he was.
You would be quite surprised at how common divorce and re-marriage is these days.
I was absolutely stunned to hear that Charles Stanley's wife divorced him...
I do not know if this is true or if he re-married.
Verne

[hopon]

Many of us think that Lewis disobeyed Scripture in this marriage.
I am however in no position to declare his inheritance as a child of God null and void, or that he has forfeited the kingdom of God.   
That particular sin, and all the others Lewis ever committed during his life-time is fully atoned for if he was saved, and I believe he was.

You are saying that if sin is fully atoned for, that there are no consequences for it in the next life?

You would be quite surprised at how common divorce and re-marriage is these days.

Surprised? More like dismayed.