While It Is Yet Called Today...

[vernecarty]

Chuck's questions have been answered multiple times! Mark answered him, Verne answered him, Tom answered him, Joe answered him. I answered him.

But Chuck doesn't like the answers. Or he doesn't agree. So he gets ever more abrasive and starts backing people into corners, throwing out personal jabs (questioning people's spirituality, etc.) & generally playing dirty. Not cool.

We don't agree but we have answered.
E.

Much of what is written in Scripture is pretty black and white - no lying, no stealing etc. etc.
The issues of divorce and remarriage are not so black and white and Chuck and Hopon do strike me as being a bit more rigid on this than the Scripture is.
I watched with interest as Chuck previously raised the issue about R rated movies and seem adamant that those queried would and should admit that going to see a R rated movie was...well, sinful. 
This kind of perspective I consider to be a bit on the legalistic side frankly.
The reason God redeemed us was so that we could be free.
To impose on a fellow believer what may be for you a matter of conscience is really unhealthy IMHO.
This is really what I had been trying to subtly get across on the question of divorce and remarriage - we need to be extremely careful to not engage in a wholesale condemnation of others.  We rarely have all the facts.
O.K. I will now leave it alone...
Verne

[hopon]

It goes without saying that Christians commit this as well as many other sins, and if Scripture is violated when a Christian engages in divorce, Scripture considers him or her still married and this is what makes remarriage an adulterous act! This is a simple fact that you both seem unable to acknowledge.
If the divorce is Scripturally warranted - REMARRIAGE IS NOT ADULTERY!

Okay. I see what you are saying here. Thank you for finally, clearly stating your belief.

So then if the divorce is not scripturally warranted, you are saying that the person who remarries is committing an adulterous act, but is not living in a continous adulterous situation?

But what I'm seeing is that even though God hates divorce, he says one may divorce their spouse if the spouse has already "left" them (to cavort with another, or to do their own thing, etc.).

But, God will not and cannot deny his own (2 Tim. 2:13), so that we are still considered his own, as a prodigal son, even though we have left him. In the same way, I believe that God considers every divorced person to be still married to the spouse that they have divorced on paper. These are spiritual bonds, so that it would seem to me that even though a person is legally divorced, they are still "married" to the first spouse and so are in a continous state of adultery with the second spouse. 

If divorce/remarriage is important enough to keep one from occupying the office of a church leader, what does it say to anyone else in the church?

The contention that adultery on the part of a believer will keep him out of the kingdom betrays a complete lack of understanding of what it means to be saved.

1)Can you explain who are the sheep in the second resurrection and why they haven't been included in the first resurrection? (I'm not insinuating that they are divorced/remarried folks, and yes, these sheep are written in the book of life.)
 2)The fact that there are rewards given in heaven indicate that there is a consequence in eternity for our behavior in this life.

Your point about David's repentance is well taken - what does it tell you about judging other people's sin?
Verne

Nathan confronted David with his sins. This divorce/remarriage issue is one that is worthy of discussion of any scriptural reference and discussion of the consequences of it given to us by God in the Word.

Until David had repented, his relationship with God was not what it had been before he sinned, just as the prodigal son was not in fellowship with his father while he was off doing his own thing.

My concern, and what initiated my first post on this topic, was whether one's relationship with God would change after one had been remarried.

I believe this is a legitimate and important concern, for if remarriage is considered to be a continous state of adultery, it would be hard to find God in it, wouldn't you think? How could you return to your original relationship with God when you have permanently left it behind? (Esau couldn't find it, though he sought it with tears.)

[Elizabeth H]

(Enoch couldn't find it, though he sought it with tears.)

I think you mean Esau?

Enoch being the one who was not found--having been raptured and all.
 

[hopon]

I think you mean Esau?

Enoch being the one who was not found--having been raptured and all.
 

Yes, thank you.

[Joe Sperling]

Hopon---

Honest mistake--but I think you mean Esau not Enoch. I do have a question though---why
would God consider divorce and then remarriage adultery, and not the death of a spouse and
remarriage? Wouldn't the person still be considered in God's eyes as married to their original
wife? If the man/woman remarries after the death of a spouse why isn't that considered adul-
tery? The person is not gone forever--they have entered eternity.

I really do believe that when Jesus says if someone "puts away" his wife and then marries another
he has committed adultery, he is referring to getting rid of one wife to obtain another. What of the
wife who has been put away? Was that her fault? If she marries again is she an adulteress? According to what you are saying she is. Do you really believe God would want a woman to be miserable the rest of her life, or a man who made a mistake earlier in his life? As is the custom in Arab countries, it was in the days of Israel when a man could say "I divorce you, I divorce you, I divorce you" and they were considered divorced.  I think that is what Jesus is referring to--considering marriage something that could be thrown away with a whim. But I seriously and truly do not believe that God is going to eternally separate himself from someone who made a mistake earlier in their life, and then remarries years later.

Lamentations says that God does not willingly vex the children of men. Would God really put something into effect that would destroy someone's life forever? A man marries a woman at 19 years for example. It is a terrble mistake(perhaps the woman got pregnant, and he, feeling it is the right thing to do marries a woman whom he never should have married in the first place). They slowly disintegrate because they never really loved one another, but instead were infatuated with one another. They wind up divorced. They both agree that they were not made for one another and made a huge mistake.

Now---according to your theology, if either of them marries again they are committing adultery. So, if either of them genuinely falls in love with someone else they can NEVER get married again, because God sees it as adultery.  Even if 30 years have passed. I don't believe that is the correct interpretation of Scripture. God does not "vex" us due to mistakes we have made. He is the "God of second chances". I personally may never get married again. But I believe he has forgiven my youthly errors--yes, I knew it was wrong, but it was MY mistake. If I choose to remarry due to the deep love I have for someone, do you really believe that God will frown upon it, and not honor it, and separate himself from me for eternity? When Peter asked Jesus "How often shall I forgive my brother? Until seven times?" Jesus replied "No, until 70 times 7 times". Does the God who made that statement hold grudges? Does he plant something in his word which will vex and eliminate any joy in future life due to past errors?  He can forgive anything else--according to your theology this is the one thing he cannot forgive or allow. Why? Why would he grant second chances in everything else except marriage?

The prodigal son took his inheritance, blew all the money on prostitutes, liquor and fun. What if, in his youthful folly he got drunk and got married? He realizes his error, gets immediately divorced and returns to his father to be "one of his servants". The father forgives him for everything in joy, but then says "Son, I'm truly sorry, but there is one thing I cannot forgive you for. Remember that woman you married during your inebriated  journey? Well, you are stuck with her for the rest of your life. If you attempt to marry someone else--even if you deeply love them--I am always going to consider you married to that woman. In anything else I would give you a second chance, but in this one thing I am afraid I cannot".  Does this sound like God?

--Joe

[vernecarty]

Okay. I see what you are saying here. Thank you for finally, clearly stating your belief.

So then if the divorce is not scripturally warranted, you are saying that the person who remarries is committing an adulterous act, but is not living in a continous adulterous situation?

A fair qustion and I am not sure I know the answer. The nature of true repentance when one has sinned is ultimately between the soul and God. The question that you are asking is whether someone who knowingly, and I stress knowingly, enters into a marital relationship while still married to another Scripturally, should leave the second marriage?
My own opinion is that yes, they should; and as long as they do not, they are indeed in a state of disobedience to God.
Romans speaks to this exact issue. While they are married to another, it obviously has to be considered an "adulterous situation" as you so aptly put it.

But what I'm seeing is that even though God hates divorce, he says one may divorce their spouse if the spouse has already "left" them (to cavort with another, or to do their own thing, etc.).

Don't get me wrong on this Hopon. My sentiments are with you on this one 100%.
Having put my foot in my mouth on the topic in the past, I am far more cautious in what I now assert.

But, God will not and cannot deny his own (2 Tim. 2:13), so that we are still considered his own, as a prodigal son, even though we have left him. In the same way, I believe that God considers every divorced person to be still married to the spouse that they have divorced on paper. These are spiritual bonds, so that it would seem to me that even though a person is legally divorced, they are still "married" to the first spouse and so are in a continous state of adultery with the second spouse.

This indeed is the difficulty. Marriage is supposed to reflect the relationship of Christ to the Church - very serious business indeed... 

If divorce/remarriage is important enough to keep one from occupying the office of a church leader, what does it say to anyone else in the church?

This is a marvellous question! My theory is that it is exactly because of the church's failure to uphold a Biblical standard as regards its appointed leadership, that you are now seeing the problem become not only prevalent, but accepted.

1)Can you explain who are the sheep in the second resurrection and why they haven't been included in the first resurrection? (I'm not insinuating that they are divorced/remarried folks, and yes, these sheep are written in the book of life.)

Could you specify the verse you are referring to here?

2)The fact that there are rewards given in heaven indicate that there is a consequence in eternity for our behavior in this life.Nathan confronted David with his sins. This divorce/remarriage issue is one that is worthy of discussion of any scriptural reference and discussion of the consequences of it given to us by God in the Word.

Rewards in heaven yes. Implications for eternity not stated...so no one knows really.

Until David had repented, his relationship with God was not what it had been before he sinned, just as the prodigal son was not in fellowship with his father while he was off doing his own thing.

My concern, and what initiated my first post on this topic, was whether one's relationship with God would change after one had been remarried.

You are certainly right about fellowship. The relationship however does not ever change, thank God!
When my daughter is having a bad day and exasperating her dad does she stop being my daughter?
Sometimes in my moments of greatest exasperation is realisation of how deeply I love,care and want the very best for her...a pale reflection of the reality of the disposition of our Heavenly Father.

I believe this is a legitimate and important concern, for if remarriage is considered to be a continous state of adultery, it would be hard to find God in it, wouldn't you think? How could you return to your original relationship with God when you have permanently left it behind? (Esau couldn't find it, though he sought it with tears.)

I agree it is legitimate and important. The path of repentance and return for those who have failed in this way would indeed be difficult...but God is able....
Verne

[soul dreamer]

“Whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery” (Lk. 16:18b).  The woman has committed an adulterous act, and the Lord says the second man who married her commits adultery.  Why is the second party also an adulterer?  I believe it is because he has married a woman who is still bound to a living mate.  Paul writes, “For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives.  But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband.  So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man” (Rom. 7:2-3).  A man and a woman covenant themselves to each other in the marriage relationship, but God joins the two eligible parties in the marriage bond (Matt. 19:6).  Divorce does not loose the marriage bond; only physical death does.

In the Old Testament, the Lord allowed divorce because of “the hardness of their hearts,” but even then the Lord said that if the divorced woman was remarried to someone besides her original husband, she was “defiled” (Deut. 24:4).  The Hebrew for this word “defiled” is the same as the “defiled” in the following verse:  “Moreover thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbor's wife, to defile thyself with her” (Lev. 18:20).

Now, the Lord says, “Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven” (Matt 5:19).

It is plain then that there are varying measures of praise from the Lord for those who both taught and did on earth according to the Sermon on the Mount.  I believe He shall examine our doctrine and behavior through each verse of this great Sermon -- “teachers receive stricter judgment” (Jam. 3:1), and “everything shall be manifested;” “shouted from the rooftops” (Lk 12:2).  I believe it is possible that a teacher could receive glowing praise from the Lord for teaching and doing faithfully according to every verse of the Sermon… except for one verse.  Although a teacher may have many “rewards” or “crowns” or “Well done!-s” from the Lord for other aspects of his life/ministry, I believe many teachers from my generation shall not hear “Great! Good teaching!” when the Lord queries them for how they taught on: “Whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery.”  I believe it is possible that they may even hear something as, “That was erroneous teaching, son, and you encouraged some of My children to sin by your teaching.”

[vernecarty]

Hopon---



Lamentations says that God does not willingly vex the children of men. Would God really put something into effect that would destroy someone's life forever? A man marries a woman at 19 years for example. It is a terrble mistake(perhaps the woman got pregnant, and he, feeling it is the right thing to do marries a woman whom he never should have married in the first place). They slowly disintegrate because they never really loved one another, but instead were infatuated with one another. They wind up divorced. They both agree that they were not made for one another and made a huge mistake.

So far as I can tell, Scripture does not aknowledge that a marriage such as this is a "mistake"
At its core, marriage is committment, and a sacred one at that.
The problem is the marriage vow in someway that I do not fully understand has Divine imprimatur.
Our subsequent belief that it was a mistake does not change that.
This is why marriage is so incredibly serious and why Scripture strongly cautions that what God has joined, let not man ( the married parties themselves included) separate.

Now---according to your theology, if either of them marries again they are committing adultery. So, if either of them genuinely falls in love with someone else they can NEVER get married again, because God sees it as adultery.  Even if 30 years have passed. I don't believe that is the correct interpretation of Scripture.

I suppose the way I look at this is that it underscores the seriousness of the marriage vow.
The explanation of "falling in love" with someone else is one the most frequent reasons given for infidelity.
I do not envy those who have to work through issues like these. God was remarkably merciful and kind to me in this regard and for that I will be eternally grateful to Him. Had he given me what I thought I wanted, I am convinced it would have led to life-long regret...
Verne

 

[Joe Sperling]

Verne---

I fully agree that many take marriage lightly, using the excuse of "falling in love with someone" as an excuse for divorce. The point I am making is that people do make mistakes in a wide variety of ways that effect their lives. In many cases it is not God who has joined together, but the people in haste,
without seriously thinkiing things out, who get married and realize that it wasn't meant to be.

Should they be penalized for the rest of their lives for such a mistake? It is a lot different than willfully divorcing someone so you can marry someone else---that I can clearly see would be adultery.
If both parties realize it is an error and say "I don't love you" to  one another, and decide it is best they part ways, do you really believe they have to stay together in torment, because if they divorce and remarry someone else it is adultery? I know I am speaking from opinion, but I just don't believe God would be cruel and make two people spend the rest of their lives together because of a bad choice they both made in youth.

"What God has joined together let no man put asunder" implies a work which God has done in bringing two people together in the bonds of love. Can we do things out of the will of God, and thus join together with someone God never intended? If there is a divorce are we putting asunder something God joined together? No. Both parties may both fully agree it was never meant to be.
Again, would God "force" these two people to stay together when he never brought them together in the first place? I know I am arguing far more from opinion than anythihng else, so I will shut up about this now, but I just cannot believe that God would do something like that.

-Joe

[hopon]

Verne---
 In many cases it is not God who has joined together, but the people in haste,
without seriously thinkiing things out, who get married and realize that it wasn't meant to be.

Should they be penalized for the rest of their lives for such a mistake?
If both parties realize it is an error and say "I don't love you" to  one another, and decide it is best they part ways, do you really believe they have to stay together in torment, because if they divorce and remarry someone else it is adultery? I know I am speaking from opinion, but I just don't believe God would be cruel and make two people spend the rest of their lives together because of a bad choice they both made in youth.

"What God has joined together let no man put asunder" implies a work which God has done in bringing two people together in the bonds of love. Can we do things out of the will of God, and thus join together with someone God never intended?

Again, would God "force" these two people to stay together when he never brought them together in the first place?
-Joe

Joe, the "marriage from hell" was made hellish by the two people involved. It's exactly in this spot that we can learn to live according to what God wants because we have come to the end of what we can accomplish on our own: a marriage from hell. Most marriages would be in this condition if God is left out. Thus today we have the easy "no-fault" divorce.

Abraham took things into his own hands with his relationship with Hagar. It was not what God had in mind for Abraham, but look at how God has kept his promise in blessing and increasing that lineage of Abraham. God still recognizes Hagar's children as Abraham's seed, though they were not the direct descendents of the "child of promise" to Abraham, but the result of Abraham's trying to work out God's promise to him.

[hopon]

from hopon:
1)Can you explain who are the sheep in the second resurrection and why they haven't been included in the first resurrection? (I'm not insinuating that they are divorced/remarried folks, and yes, these sheep are written in the book of life.)

Could you specify the verse you are referring to here?

Verne

The reference to sheep and goats is found in Matt.25:31-34, which also refers to Jesus sitting on the judgement throne as in Rev. 20.

There in Rev.20 it also speaks of the first resurrection in which it seems only the martyrs will be a part of, who are also going to enjoy the millenial kingdom.

So is the first resurrection for the martyrs only and the second one for the general Christian population mixed with those headed for the red lake?

[Joe Sperling]

Hopon----

The Bible speaks of (3) Judgements-----

The judgement seat of Christ where Christians will be judged.

The judgement of the Nations(this is Matt. 25:31-34) in which they are judged on how
they treated the nation of Israel. These are the sheep and the goats. Most likely is a
judgement right afer the Great Tribulation.

The Great White Throne Judgement--where the unsaved are judged by their works and by
the law and shown why they are being damned in the Lake of Fire.

There are not (2) resurrections of Christians---there are (2) resurrections--of the "righteous"
who will live through the Millenium, and the second resurrection of the lost or "unrighteous"
(see the book of Daniel).

--Joe

[Uncle Buck]

I will share something personally and then ask a question. After I left the Assembly I totally
walked away from God. I felt I was worthless as a christian, so why even try? I got married
to an unsaved woman, who eventually began to see another man and left me. It was a horr-
ible time in my life and completely my fault. I have not married since, but do have a girlfriend
now who believes. What if I wanted to marry her? Am I forbidden to do so?

Perhaps God would say "Joe, too bad. I sure wish you had murdered someone--I could
forgive that mistake. But you have commited the one act that I can never forgive--you
can never marry again, because if you do so you will commit adultery. I know it was all a
terrible mistake for which you have asked forgiveness, but sorry Joe, I can forgive all manner
of laciviousness, blasphemy, and even murder. But I cannot forgive you if you remarry--you
will be disowned by me and cannot inherit the Kingdom.

I made a mistake in my life. If I remarry, to a Christian woman, do you really think God would look
down and frown, and never forgive me for "an adulterous act"? Why can God forgive all other errors made in one's life except this one? Ask yourself that and tell me if you really believe it.

--Joe

Hi Joe,
My opinion is that we should persue Gods will in everything, we should do our best to live for Him, but we screw things up don't we...."prone to wander". Some of us punish ourselves way too much and sometimes we give no second thought to actions and attitudes we realize later are repulsive to God. I don't know you but I think very highly of anyone who can admit that they screwd up. Some people play it safe , but have they ever really stepped out in faith ? Obeying Gods statutes and laws are life but there is more to faith than obeying laws and statutes. After reading the whole Bible many times I believe it pleases God when we can admit we screwed up. I think King David was like this,  he posessed a greater quality...He trusted and hoped in Gods mercy. David looked beyond the laws, he looked to the character of God.  He knew God, he had a relationship with God. He did'nt play God for a chump, he knew God as the only King, because of this David faith gave him great liberty. David knew mercy has many possibilities. So I say put our faith in God, not in fear.

Buck

[hopon]

Hi Joe,

David looked beyond the laws, he looked to the character of God.

David knew God's laws. That's why he tried to cover his sin! He knew God's laws stood fast and that he had committed a sin. He also knew the only way he could be married to Bathsheba was to have Uriah killed. It was the only way he could change the circumstances to appear to be innocent.

What a picture to us of how we try to finagle our way around issues because we know what we have done is wrong.

David didn't walk into his relationship with Bathsheba figuring ahead of time that God would forgive him for it. He never thought it would be found out.

Yes, David knew God.

[Uncle Buck]

He never thought it would be found out.

Yes, David knew God.

Maybe more like; somehow it would work out. I don't think he ever imagined the ramifications. Do you think David still loved Bethsheba after all the dust settled? Do you think God still loved David ?

Yes, David knew God