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Author Topic: Who is going to win the Nov. 2, 2004 elections?  (Read 31849 times)
al Hartman
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« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2004, 09:32:54 am »



I examined my beliefs on this topic recently, and determined that I really don't have pro-life principles, in the sense that I don't want to overturn Roe v. Wade, or make a federal ban on abortion.

I think it should be left up to the states as to whether abortion, prostitution, gambling, etc. are legal.  

I would like a choice, on my tax form, as to whether I want a percentage of my taxes to go to Planned Parenthood, or an adoption agency.  As it stands now, Planned Parenthood is being financed by people who think abortion is murder.  I think we should have a choice.

So, when it comes right down to it,  I am actually Pro-Choice.  

I would like to choose not to fund infanticide,  and I would also like to choose to live in a state where infanticide as illegal.  What they do in other states is their choice.  That is my principle.


Brent,

     Thanks for some excellent thoughts.  I am interested, though, in why you would like to see conscientious people ban abortion within their states, but not on a national scale.  I understand the matter of stats' rights, but if people actually migrated to states according to such standards, wouldn't such an issue ultimately prove as divisive to the union as slavery once did?  Not that we're likely to see such things happen, but how do you think it would play out in such a case?

al


« Last Edit: October 31, 2004, 09:47:10 am by Brent A. Tr0ckman » Logged
Oscar
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« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2004, 09:54:37 am »

I voted for Ahnold the Governator in the recall election, on the basis that: a. he could actually get elected, and b. he was a fiscal conservative.

Quote
I will not do anything to give a man so base and evil as to support the legalized butchering of millions of babies into such a powerful place.

I don't see how any Christian could.

Did you stop to think about the fact that Arnold is probably going to run for president someday?  (If the constitution can be ammended)

There was another fiscal conservative running in the recall election who is staunchly pro-choice, {on edit, I mean PRO_LIFE!!!] Tom McClintok. (SP)  Had all the pro-life conservatives voted on principle, rather than practicality, perhaps he would have been the new governor.  I don't know.


Brent,

Arnold Schwarzeneger's chances of getting the constitution amended so he can run for president are about as good as my chances of getting George Geftakys to apologize to everyone he has robbed and then returning their money.

In other words, there is no chance at all.

I did consider this.  I just don't think it could happen, so it wasn't an issue.  He might, however, get to the senate.  But I doubt if he would oppose a supreme court appointment on the abortion issue alone.

I think Tom McClintock is a fine man.  He is probably the best expert on the state budget there is.

But in an election for governor, he is unelectable.  Every time he tries to leave his current level of government, he loses.

Thomas Maddux
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editor
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« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2004, 10:13:28 am »



I examined my beliefs on this topic recently, and determined that I really don't have pro-life principles, in the sense that I don't want to overturn Roe v. Wade, or make a federal ban on abortion.

I think it should be left up to the states as to whether abortion, prostitution, gambling, etc. are legal.  

I would like a choice, on my tax form, as to whether I want a percentage of my taxes to go to Planned Parenthood, or an adoption agency.  As it stands now, Planned Parenthood is being financed by people who think abortion is murder.  I think we should have a choice.

So, when it comes right down to it,  I am actually Pro-Choice.  

I would like to choose not to fund infanticide,  and I would also like to choose to live in a state where infanticide as illegal.  What they do in other states is their choice.  That is my principle.


Brent,

     Thanks for some excellent thoughts.  I am interested, though, in why you would like to see conscientious people ban abortion within their states, but not on a national scale.  I understand the matter of stats' rights, but if people actually migrated to states according to such standards, wouldn't such an issue ultimately prove as divisive to the union as slavery once did?  Not that we're likely to see such things happen, but how do you think it would play out in such a case?

al
People can go to Nevada right now, and own and shoot fully automatic weapons in the morning,  visit a prostitute in the early afternoon, and gamble and booze it up into the wee hours.---not that I know all this from first hand experience!  If this doesn't appeal to you, live in Utah, where you can do no such thing, and the beer is all low alchohol!---I do know this from first hand experience.

If the people of Texas or Georgia wanted to ban abortion in their state, those wanting them would have to take a trip to another state, or to another country, just like the Mormons do when they want to gamble.  They go to another state.

If we are going to legislate moral laws, then we should be consistent.  Abortion(murder) is punishable by death according to the law....so is adultery.  Why are we not up in arms about these things, and pushing for a federal ban on them?(perhaps some are)

I like the idea of freedom.  I want the freedom to discriminate against someone based on sexual orientation, religion and what I perceive their morals to be.  I don't want to hire a homosexual to work in my office, neither do I want to be forced to fund abortion, as I am now.  I want the freedom to do otherwise, even if it harms me.  I want the freedom to be my own idiot.

I like the idea of a Christian state, where there is no abortion, and homosexuals are not treated as a married couple.  I would like to see vagrancy laws enacted, and enforced etc.

With a federal ban on things, we aren't really free, the same as a federal mandate for Planned Parenthood, or public education.  It's just wrong to make this a federal issue.

However, the way the constitution was originally written, the states had rights.

I would choose to live in one state, and you might choose to live in another, based upon the laws.  Abortions could be legal in California, and against the law in Texas.  That's the way it should be.

I'd live in a state with a strong Christian influence, but that might not appeal to others, in which case they could live somewhere else.  

We will never get rid of abortion, so we might as well have the freedom to make it illegal in one state, instead of a fanciful interpretation of the constitution a la Roe v Wade.

So, to wrap it up, we couldn't be more divided over the issue than we are at present.  Using your slavery analogy, we currently live in a country where slavery is a constitutional right for all, and the abolitionists are forced to subsidize slave purchases for those who want them.  Nothing could be more divisive!

Let them practice infanticide if they will, just don't make me pay for it!  The only answer I see to abortion is to let the states decide how it is going to be for them, same as gambling and prostitution.

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editor
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« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2004, 10:20:16 am »

I think Tom McClintock is a fine man.  He is probably the best expert on the state budget there is.

But in an election for governor, he is unelectable.  Every time he tries to leave his current level of government, he loses.

Thomas Maddux

Yep.  But what about voting one's conscience?

I voted for McClintock, because he reflected my views and principles.  I bet you like him better than Arnold as well.  If everyone voted their conscience, instead of wasting their vote on one of the 2 headliners, things might be quite different.

Brent
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vernecarty
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« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2004, 04:07:00 pm »

I just got done listening to Bill Moyers interview Greg Thielman, a State Department intelligence analyst and I cannot ever remember feelig this sad and despondent about politics.
Generally I could care less. Bush claims to be a Christian and I felt I had a stake...
I am sad about the way they have prostituted my fellow West Indian Colin Powell and completely destroyed the man's credibility and integrity.
I am sad about the way they are forcing Rice, the National Security Advisor, to go on the campaign trail and repeat that which is provably false regarding the administraton's use of intelligence information prior to the Iraq invasion.
I am going to make a prediction.
If George W Bush is indeed a child of God, his jusgement will be his re-election to the office of the presidency and the forcible acknowledgement of what  now appears to be extremely serious breaches of integrity and truthfulness n his discharge of that office.
We need to pray for God's mercy on this man and his handlers.  Cry
Verne

p.s. I remember how completely incensed I was when Harry Belafonte called Colin Powell a "house nigger"...who would have thunk it...?
If the Lord Jesus Christ is not your Master, somebody will eventually make you a harlot...men included...
Makes you wonder what you own "price" is does it not?

INTEGRITY IS EVERYTHING!
Especially for us believers.
...that we would truly know what it means to suffer the loss of ALL things...!!


Verne,

If you are correct about Colin Powell and Condaleeza Rice allowing themselves to be "forced" to publicly lie about something they supposedly know is not true, why should you feel sorry for them?

"They" are making these poor victims go around an lie to everyone.  Hmmmmm.   Roll Eyes

How do they do it?  

Could it be possible that they actually have some personal integrety and believe in what they are doing?

If they don't believe it, they are scoundrels.  You talk as if they were innocent victims of the evil "they."  People without any options, who just can't help what the evil "they" is/are doing to them.  

Thomas Maddux

Tom while your argument sounds plausible enough, you and I both know (having bought the Geftakys lie for so many years) that that is not the way of human nature. If you think people who are politically accountable to others don't have to do things they strongly disagree with you don't know how the system works my friend.
There is not functioning brain in the cosmos that does not know that Colin Powell was stongly opposed to this invasion of Iraq. His loyalty superceded his conscience.
He is after all a military man, and knows both how to give and to take orders.
I listened to Powell's testimony before the UN and was struck that he was the only one in the administration who actually admitted that there was controversy over the idea that the Aluminum centrifuge tubes were intended to be used by Saddam in his nuclear program. We now know that every intellgence report dismissed this notion.
Rumsfeld knew it. Bush knew it. Rice knew it (although she denies this).
Powell solved his ethical dilemma by stating that all the experts agreed that the tubes
could be used, thereby making himself in my opinion nothing but a whore.
He knew his testimony would give the American people and the UN the exact opposite impression of what the intelligence actually suggested.
This was arouind the time he announced he would not be returning to serve in this adminstration.
I suspect the man has a conscience after all.
He is however, obviously loyal to a fault.
I do agree with you about one thing though and that is that it is completely stupid for me to go around feeling sorry for these folk....I will give that up immediately! Smiley

Verne

p.s. I am astonishded at your faith in politicians Tom. Do your really think that these folk will for a minute hesitate to lie to you when it suits their purpose?
The evidence that they did is conclusive in my view.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2004, 04:32:30 pm by vernecarty » Logged
vernecarty
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« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2004, 04:20:54 pm »




I will not do anything to give a man so base and evil as to support the legalized butchering of millions of babies into such a powerful place.

I don't see how any Christian could.

Thomas Maddux


I think I am with you on this one Tom...
Brent is right that many Christians are hypocritical, not inconsistent, on this issue.
Verne
« Last Edit: October 31, 2004, 04:27:13 pm by vernecarty » Logged
outdeep
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« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2004, 07:00:10 pm »




I will not do anything to give a man so base and evil as to support the legalized butchering of millions of babies into such a powerful place.

I don't see how any Christian could.

Thomas Maddux


I think I am with you on this one Tom...
Brent is right that many Christians are hypocritical, not inconsistent, on this issue.
Verne
I understand what you are saying here and, for the most part, I see abortion as a central issue - after all, if the only fault of a candidate is that he beats his wife, would you still vote for him?  So also, if the only fault of a candidate is he supports infanticide, would you still vote for him?


However . . .

When  I read through posts on sites such as "Christians for Kerry", I understand a little of where they are coming from.  They argue that abortion is a bit of a non-issue - nothing is going to change no matter who is elected.  Further, they feel that Evangelical Christian has gotten too far into bed with the Right-Wing movement, emphasizing certain issues (abortion and homosexuality) and ignoring or minimizing others (poverty, the war, afforadable housing, environment).  

I certainly don't buy into all they are saying, but I think they do bring up a valid point.  Both the right and the left have their favorite moral issues which they hold out as superior and minimize others (very few Democrats, for instance, have the courage to say that we should care for the environment AND for the unborn and many on the right tend to see environmental issues as something for the "wacky environmentalists who hug trees").

All that to say, I don't think that Christians voting for Kerry are necessarily hypocritical.  I think in many cases there is simply a disagreement of which moral issues are the most important and relevant in this election.
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Jem
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« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2004, 07:20:40 pm »

Brent posed the question, "What about voting your conscience." Then there followed a hypocritical/inconsistant thread of argument.

That certainly is my conundrum in this election. I cannot vote my conscience for neither represents it. To vote for one is hypocritical and the other inconsistant. I could vote for a third party candidate, but then we'd have to start a discussion on tilting at windmills in American politics.

All I know at this point is I'm not voting for Barabara Boxer.
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editor
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« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2004, 10:12:06 pm »

Brent posed the question, "What about voting your conscience." Then there followed a hypocritical/inconsistant thread of argument.

That certainly is my conundrum in this election. I cannot vote my conscience for neither represents it. To vote for one is hypocritical and the other inconsistant. I could vote for a third party candidate, but then we'd have to start a discussion on tilting at windmills in American politics.

All I know at this point is I'm not voting for Barabara Boxer.

I firmly hold a few beliefs/assumptions about American politics:

1.)Republicrats are insincere, opportunistic, political players, who will do/say anything to get elected.  Once elected, their primary goal is to secure the future of the system and their future benefit from it.  This means payola to those who played along with their pandering.

2.)The vast majority of Americans view their political leaders with what can at best be described as skepticism.  Many distrust and outright despise their leaders for the things mentioned in  number one, above.

3.)The Two Party System is just that: 2 PARTIES Neither side wants to eliminate the other, neither side is serious about  winning once and for all, or shifting the majority view towards what is sensible.  First and foremost, both sides need eachother in order to put on the show every two years, and insure that each reaps the benefits of political office.  

You can't have a cage match, with smack-talking wrestlers unless there are two of them.  You have to have Stone Cold Steve Austin vs.  {another wrestler...I don't know who's hot currently}  In order for the phoney show to go on, you must have two actors play the part.  Afterwards, they go out and have a beer together and talk about investments and such.  

This is exactly what the politicians do

Am I cynical?  Those who actually believe one of these guys running for office will surely say so.  Certainly the other guy fits my description, but not our guy!  Nevertheless, I defy anyone to name one thing that George Bush has done to further the "conservative" agenda.  The 600.00 refund check is nothing.  I didn't even qualify for it....too high of an income.  I guess my kids don't count.

Conservatives are supposed to cut the size of government, and its intrusive regulations into our lives.  They are supposedly the opposite of "tax and spend."  Yet, Bush and the republican congress have spent more than any other congress, and have increased spending more than any other.  The republican house and senate, along with the republican president haven't come close to balancing the national checkbook.  they talk about reducing the size of government, but they have increased it dramatically, going so far as to create huge new departments and agencies.  Conservatives don't do this, do they?

As far as intrusion, Bush and the republican congress drafted the Patriot Act.  So far, it has been used for the "right" reasons...but soon, it will be used in far more nefarious ways.   If Kerry gets elected, look forward to him using the Patriot Act to harrass and punish his political enemies, and to punish the enemies of his supporters.  

President Bush held his hand on the Bible and swore before God to uphold the constitution.  Prior to that, he stated that campaign finance reform---McCain-Finegold----was unconstitutional.  Then, after swearing to uphold the constituion, he signed what he knew was an unconstitutional bill into law!?

I could go on and on.

I need not mention the stunning barrage of lies and treason being perpetrated by Kerry.  He is worse than Bush, except in one area:

Kerry has the courage to mount a viscious campaign of slander to bring the other guy down, while Bush hasn't the courage to oppose/expose him and defend himself.  I can only speculate as to why this is the case, and my speculation leads me to conclude that Bush hasn't the moral fiber or statesmanship to risk political capital by telling the truth: His opponent is a treasonous liar.

A man who won't say the hard thing, in order to avoid losing a tight political race is not my idea of a strong leader.

I could go on and on and on.  In doing so, the only conclusion that makes any sense is that american politics are a show, similiar to the WWF, in which the candidates are casted as the leading rolls, but the script writers and producers are behind the scenes calling the shots.

That's why I'm a third party guy.  I love republican rhetoric...I just never see it practised.

Jem, consider voting for Judge Jim Gray for Senate.  I have met him, and spoken with him at length...he's a great guy.  Was a republican until 2 years ago.

When I heard him speak, he fielded questions from all angles, and actually answered them without a script.  He could string more than two sentences together in a coherent manner, and he was consistent and logical in his answers.

Why is it that he can answer coherently, off the cuff, while Bush and Kerry need to have the questions submitted before hand, so their staff can craft "answers" that the candidates can regurgitate later?  How phoney can you get?  It's disgusting, and both sides are guilty of it.

The media is even worse.  In order to be successfull in media, you must kiss @$$ and report the way your editor/producer wants.  Favors, back-room deals, exclusives, leaks....all are part of a complicated dance of deception, smearing, salesmanship, spin and damage control.

I think americans would flock to a leader who had no staff, no handlers, and who stuck to a few simple principles. That is exactly who our founding fathers were, and they were able to ignite a revolution.  Where is Patrick Henry when we need him?

Sadly, the two party system is carefully designed to avoid exactly this.  The last thing either party needs is a Patrick Henry, or a Thomas Jefferson, someone who can talk straight and make sense,  it will ruin everything they have worked for.

I'll make all of you a wager:

If Bush wins, in four years nothing will have changed, and Roe v Wade will still be in place.  He won't appoint constructionist judges to the court, neither will he reduce or eliminate a single government program.

If Kerry wins, in four years nothing will have changed, and Roe v Wade will still be in place.  He won't appoint constructionist judges to the court, neither will he reduce or eliminate a single government program.

If what I say turns out to be true, who is wasting their vote?

Brent
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Mark C.
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« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2004, 10:59:59 pm »

My Fellow Americans! Smiley

  All that Brent has posted cannot be denied, but I think that possibly he is holding a standard for "voting his conscience that is impossible to achieve in a pluralistic secular society.

  We simply will never get a perfect candidate that can implement a perfect society.

  Having said all that I believe that Christians who vote can have an effect on a "government by the people" and that it does make a difference whom we vote for.

  I think that the two party system has worked better here than say a parlimentary styled government like England, where there are many different parties.  A multitude of little parties leads to no consensus in the governing process,  and/or all kinds of quaqmires.  

  Though I tend to Libertarian economic views, as a party they have only gained small support in the country, and so "voting my conscience" in this election will only lend support to the far left policies of the Democrats.

  Brent states that Bush's re-election will lead to no effective change because the two parties are basically owned by special interests and to some degree this is undeniably true.  Democracy in a pluralistic society is dependent on compromise in all of their decisions, a problem that dictatorships avoid  Wink.

  The final four years afford Bush an ability to make changes that are more conservative because he will not be facing re-election this time.  Look for true conservatives appointed as judges, true fundamental changes in Soc. Sec., Income tax, and the like.

  Kerry will undoubtedly change laws that fall within the purview of presidential administrative law, such as "government sponsorship of abortion for military families."  True, he will be reisited by a Republican congress in his attempts to pass "Hillary Care", and raise taxes, but Bill Clinton will be made head of the United Nations and we will apply the "Global Test" when it comes to everything from Kyoto to defending this country against terrorism.

  Voting one's conscience, in an absolutely pure sense, is a standard of perfection that denies the facts that, though we are self governed, we still live in a fallen world.  Jesus admitted a kind of compromise when he stated, "render unto Ceasar the things that are his, etc."  

  If we hold off for perfection then we must wait for the return of Jesus and the establishment of His kingdom.  (Even so come quickly Lord Jesus!)  

  The Republican party is made up of many who would like to see the party be more conservative and if we leave that party for a small party our influence will be gone from it.

                        One Reporter's Opinion,  Mark C.  Smiley  
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M2
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« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2004, 12:02:55 am »

In Canada we have a 3+ party system, and a lot of votes get "wasted" as a result.

Interestingly enough, Canadian comedy shows portray Kerry for what he is, ie one who flip flops.  Except for the CBC, which is the FOX of Canada; they have to be 'politically' correct since Canada has a liberal government.

Kerry plans to implement embryionic stem cell research which will increase the 'abortion' rate.

Marcia
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editor
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« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2004, 02:31:43 am »

The final four years afford Bush an ability to make changes that are more conservative because he will not be facing re-election this time.  Look for true conservatives appointed as judges, true fundamental changes in Soc. Sec., Income tax, and the like.

That would be great, but don't count on it.  In fact, I pretty much guarantee that this won't happen.

Quote
Though I tend to Libertarian economic views, as a party they have only gained small support in the country, and so "voting my conscience" in this election will only lend support to the far left policies of the Democrats.

I disagree, although I certainly understand your argument.  In the short term, you are absolutely correct.  If all republicans (closet libertarians) voted libertarian, the Dems would win.

However, the fact that the conservative base deserted the party would do more in the arena of ideas than anything else.  In fact, it would reform the american political landscape, which would be a good thing.

We have become pragmatists, and take the most efficacious approach for the near term.  Consequently, we do nothing at all to return to the land of the free and the home of the brave.  Now, we are the home of those who long to be free from taxation and riduculous governmental control, and those who aren't brave enough to do anything about it but vote for the candidate who is less offensive towards what they really believe.

Case in point, there is a proposition on the California ballot that taxes the rich 10,000 for every million they earn, and gives it to mental health programs.  If you make less than a million, like I do, you don't pay this tax, only the rich get to pay.  This is so unfair to punish achievers by making them responsible for "mental health."  This kind of thing is going to be occuring in ever more eggregious ways in the future, if we simply lay in a supine position and hope to stem the tide with a politician who leans a little less to the left.

If we deserted those who say they are for limited government, but who actually grow it with their programs and ideas, we put them on notice that they no longer have our support, and cannot go along with the left any more.  At some point, given the current trends in our society, we are going to be faced with some very serious choices.

You may think I'm alarmist or crazy, which is fine with me, but I see our current situation as being extremely critical.  Sadly, I don't see either candidate making the slightest difference in our overall decay.

If all of us truly voted our conscience, we would make a difference.  If we vote in a pragmatic way, rather than a principled way, we merely insure the status quo.

Brent


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Mark C.
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« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2004, 04:09:26 am »

Hi Brent!

  It is great to have you back on the ol' BB.  I find your thinking very sharp, and as always challenging.

  Your right that it is "my hope" that Bush will feel free to bring in a more conservative agenda in a second term.  If he wins a squeaker than it is possible he doesn't feel like he has a mandate to make these changes.

  However, I don't know how you can "guarantee" that he won't take a more conservative stance.

  I don't know if the choice is "pragmatism vs. principle" as political change neccesitates some kind of group move and a single principled individual is basically powerless.  

  An example of this would be joining the Libetarian party.  I do not believe that all abortion should be legal, which is part of their platform, and so to join together with them I would have to set aside my principles in order to advance the rest of the goals of the party that I agree with.

  In other words, politics is always pragmatic, if it expects it's party to win elections.  A political movement must be comprised of a sizable group that can agree on a few basic principles.  Very imperfect, and that is why those who refuse to budge on all of their principles will be left out of power.

  Some of my principles I cannot sacrafice, such as abortion, and this is why Christians will have less and less influence on their government and eventually the Democrats will prevail; if not this  election then the next one with Hillary (ugh Tongue)

  Nothing can stop evil from growing in this World until Jesus comes to put a stop to it.

                                     God Bless,  Mark C.

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vernecarty
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« Reply #28 on: November 01, 2004, 05:12:03 am »




I will not do anything to give a man so base and evil as to support the legalized butchering of millions of babies into such a powerful place.

I don't see how any Christian could.

Thomas Maddux


I think I am with you on this one Tom...
Brent is right that many Christians are hypocritical, not inconsistent, on this issue.
Verne
I understand what you are saying here and, for the most part, I see abortion as a central issue - after all, if the only fault of a candidate is that he beats his wife, would you still vote for him?  So also, if the only fault of a candidate is he supports infanticide, would you still vote for him?


However . . .

When  I read through posts on sites such as "Christians for Kerry", I understand a little of where they are coming from.  They argue that abortion is a bit of a non-issue - nothing is going to change no matter who is elected.  Further, they feel that Evangelical Christian has gotten too far into bed with the Right-Wing movement, emphasizing certain issues (abortion and homosexuality) and ignoring or minimizing others (poverty, the war, afforadable housing, environment).  

I certainly don't buy into all they are saying, but I think they do bring up a valid point.  Both the right and the left have their favorite moral issues which they hold out as superior and minimize others (very few Democrats, for instance, have the courage to say that we should care for the environment AND for the unborn and many on the right tend to see environmental issues as something for the "wacky environmentalists who hug trees").

All that to say, I don't think that Christians voting for Kerry are necessarily hypocritical.  I think in many cases there is simply a disagreement of which moral issues are the most important and relevant in this election.


You make some great points here Dave.  The notion of so many Chrisians that being Republican is synonymous with holiness is offensive.
Knowing what I know about George W Bush, I personally could not in good conscience vote to put him back in office. That is my own dillemma.
Zogby is reporting that the undecided voters seem to be breaking for Kerry.
It looks like Kerry will carry both Pensylvania and Florida. If he does, it is all over for Bush.
They are neck and neck at 48% in the popular vote and for an incumbent this is ominous.
Last year at this time Bush was ahead of Gore by two points.
George W. Bush in my view does not deserve a second term.
How ironic it would be if he repeats his dad's fate...
Verne
« Last Edit: November 01, 2004, 01:06:06 pm by vernecarty » Logged
sfortescue
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« Reply #29 on: November 01, 2004, 06:06:10 am »

I just got done listening to Bill Moyers interview Greg Thielman, a State Department intelligence analyst and I cannot ever remember feelig this sad and despondent about politics.

The Bill Moyers show is not known for objectivity.

But then, as Douglas Adams said,
"On no account should anyone capable of getting himself elected president be allowed to do the job."
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