George repenting? An oxymoron?

[David Mauldin]

This all seems like a dream. The whole time I was in fellowship I was taught that I needed to reverence George as if he were infalible.  Is George Geftakys really tolerating discipline? Where is the butt-kicker I once followed?  Where is the MAN who is always right?  Something doesn't seem on the up and up. Right now  If I were still in fellowship I would be experienceing  a strange conflict within myself.  That  would be Georges' admission to being human would  cause me to question why then for years why did I just "take whatever he says as from the Lord.."?  Why did I ruin my marriage at his council?  Why did I forgo carrear opportunities at his council? Why did I give my money to him (when I didn't have a fraction of the wealth and possessions he has)?  If George is now admiting he is human then he has to go back and admit these wrongs also.

[Oscar]

Dave,
One of the hardest things about facing your assembly experience was that we mostly did it to ourselves.

I never saw any whips and chains in the assembly.

We were all asked to do things that we preferred not to do many many times.

We evaluated those "requests" and compared the desire not to comply with the loss of things that we desired even more, and then made our own choices.  We wanted many things, to be part of something really big, to be around people we loved, to "be somebody", to be near a "great man", to avoid rejection, whatever.  Each individual had their own list.
(I am speaking of adults, and I realize that wives had a somewhat different situation).  
Anyway, ultimately, every adult is personally responsible for every choice they make.

Now, we can say, "they decieved me".  But, was there no other information available?  No books?  No other ministries?  No counsellors?  

I am not saying that decievers and manipulators are without blame.  But we ALL need to realize that we were WILLING participants in our involvement in the George Geftakys assembly.

Humbling isn't it?

Remember the mote and the beam.

Tom Maddux (who just put on his flak jacket and helmet).

 

[Arthur]

Dave, I have the same thoughts here.  George repent? wha?  
I can hardly believe it.  He was like impregnable.  What did they say to George, anyways?  
"Brother George, we recognize your greatness, godliness and annointing. May we humbly suggest, oh mighty one who is like unto Paul the apostle and David the king, that (and we fall prostrate before you in obeisance as we say it, for we know it must not be true) the sightest possibility exists that you may have, maybe, made a very minor error? I know we are wrong in saying this, of course, and so we repent in dust and ashes for even thinking such a thing.  Please do not cast us into outer darkness.  Oh king, live forever!"

[Sebastian Andrew]

Tom Maddux:
Now that was hitting the nail on the head. Sooner
(is better) or later we have to come to grips with our role in all of this assembly business. Pride(elitism) is one of the major reasons some of us either were attracted to or stayed with the assembly as long as we did. This may depress us for a time, but facing it will help us recover our sanity and health. It also shows us our need to depend upon God in this world, too. If this lesson is learned I believe our sorrows, anger, etc.  are metamorphosized into the all things that work together for good....

[Aslan213]

If George "repents", it won't be much different from Dave G.'s repentance.  He'll probably be in charge of the ministry after he returns from China or vacation.

[Eulaha L. Long]

Ok, I'm a little confused.  Please help me clarify.

This is what I understand:

1.  George G. was disciplined by the "work".
2.  George G. is not allowed to partake.
3.  George and Betty will still be receiving money from the treasury.
4.  David is still receiving money from the treasury.
5.  George has been asked by Scott Testa to preach this week.

Please help me if I am not understanding this correctly...

[David Mauldin]

Tom, I wholeheartedly agree with you when you say " we were willing participants"  It has been a very painful process to come to a point where I had to admit O.K. I have some serious problems. Why did I play the assembly game for so long? Have I learned anything?  A few months ago I was in a Sutra study. (Hacienda Temple) At the begining I senced "Something is not right here."  As weeks  passed I witnessed some innapropriate behaviors on part of the leadership, ex: public humiliation etc... Although I enjoyed the study/ fellowship  I finally stopped going. It was a drag as I had invested my whole summer with this group but one concilation was I had  learned from my past experiences.

[Joe Sperling]

Tom----

It's really strange when I remember my involvement with
the Assembly. You are right, we were "willing" participants,
but at the same time I left twice and returned because I
confused my "wanting to leave" with "rebellion against God". So, though I was a "willing participant" I was at the same time a "prisoner of false guilt". I always wanted to leave because I knew something wasn't right, but unfortunately the people "in charge" had a very powerful tool at their disposal: The Bible. By using this tool in the  way they did fear dominated my life. True, there were no locks on the doors keeping me in, no whips or chains(at least physically), but there was fear, and that is a very powerful thing. So even though I was a "willing participant" I was also deceived at the same time. When you are told that your desire to leave is motivated by sin or the enemy,
and your rebellion against God, that is deception. So I find my Assembly experience to be a combination of my own willingness to be there, and yet also a great deception that was used to keep me there. I hope that doesn't sound too confusing.          --Joe

[Eulaha L. Long]

Ok, I'm a little confused.  Please help me clarify.

This is what I understand:

1.  George G. was disciplined by the "work".
2.  George G. is not allowed to partake.
3.  George and Betty will still be receiving money from the treasury.
4.  David is still receiving money from the treasury.
5.  George has been asked by Scott Testa to preach this week.

[Peacefulg]

Hi Eulaha, regarding number five.  If my wife were not 37 1/2 weeks pregnant I would be on a plane from Texas this weekend to be there and hear what was said, but the Lord knows.

Later,
G

[Eulaha L. Long]

Tom,

I respectfully disagree with you to some extent.  I agree that yes, we were not FORCED into the Assembly, bu I believe that there were PSYCHOLOGICAL chains that kept us there.  Ok, to be fair, there are people out there who have left who could see thru all the bull, but there were others (eg-newly-saved individuals) who didn't know their Bibles well enough to make an informed decision.

I tried to leave a total of four times, and the first three times I tried to leave, I was told that I was leaving the covering of God, I would be in sin to leave, I was "in the flesh" and needed to repent.  I was told that God didn't honor me if I left.  So, what choice did I have but to stay (if I sincerely wanted to walk with the Lord and to receive my inheritance and all that)?  Psychological chains kept me in.

Now, I'm no trying to say that I am not to blame, but  am not fully to blame for my involvement in that group.  I do take some responsibility, and do not wish to play the "poor victim" role.  But, I suffered a lot, and am still suffering.  Any input?

[retread]

Does anyone know if George has accepted Scott's invitation?  If so, does anyone know the day, time and place where this will happen?  Will this be a repentance type meeting or a business as usual meeting?

[editor]

Eulaha and friends:

James 3:1-2  My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgement.  For we all stumble in many things. If anyone does not stunble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body.

I think this passage sheds some light on the idea of culpability.  In a fundamental sense, those who teach the word are held to a greater degree of accountability, because what they teach (mis-teach) has an effect on those who submit themselves to their teaching.

So, we are all guilty to some degree for not walking out the door the first time we came to an Assembly outreach.  Or are we?  What about those who were born into the group, who had no choice?  What about those who received Christ as Saviour in the group.  God can use that, and 0bviously did.  And what about me, who learned some hard lessons, in "Potiphar's house?"  

No one has been more authoritarian in their claims of being teachers, with the possible exception of the pope, than George Geftakys and his servants.  These men referred to their speech as the voice of God, all the time.  We travelled, 3 times per year, to the seminars, in order to "Sit at his throne and hear His word."

The reality of the situation is that we were hearing a man speak.  Oh yes, I was blessed every once in a while, but that was mainly when I was reading along in the bible, sometimes in a totally different passage than the one George was asking us to turn to, and I got encouraged by the Lord.  The same thing happens when I listen to Christian radio, and I can do that when I'm on the boat.

The fact is that these men set themselves up as teachers, and demanded that we listen to them, obey them and imitate them.  The Bible clearly says, they will incur a stricter judgement, especially for the false things that they taught.

People should keep in mind that the abuse issue is only a symptom of a greater problem.  I left the Assembly before the abuse issue, as did MANY other people.  The doctrine was bad, and therefore the practice was bad.  Soon, we shall be able to explore this side of things, and this is where most of the healing will take place.

Brent

[Peacefulg]

AMEN Brent

[Arthur]

The way I look at, we're dealing with two kinds of people here.  People that are different not just in actions or attitudes but different in their very nature.  From what I read in the Bible, it seems that all of human kind can be (and indeed will be by God) separated into these two categories.  The righteous and the unrighteous.  The first children born into this world were prototypes of each - Able and Cain. The Bible also describes it as the wheat and the tares, the sheep and the goats, the sheep and the wolves.  Isaac the son of promise was perecuted by Ishmael the son of the slave woman.  Jesus said that the world hates his disciples because they are not of the world just as he is not of the world.  

I believe these men do what they do because it is their nature.   I do not believe there will be repentence.  Do any of you honestly believe that these men will have a change of heart?  Will they fall on their knees and say "Oh, what have I done?!  I can't believe I have hurt these dear people so much.  I am so sorry!  I must make things right!"   Do you think they would say such a thing from the heart?  It is not in their character to do so.  What we see now has been observed for all of our known contact with these people for 30 years.  This is what and who they are.  By their fruits you shall know them.  Can you gather grapes from thorns?
There may be some who will repent, who really do have a change in heart, as we have seen some in leadership already do so.  These are the ones who typically have had some issues with the group all along and were never, in their heart, fully with George, Betty, et al.  


Look at these verses and tell me if they don't apply.
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.  Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?  Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.  A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.  Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.  Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.   Matt 7:15-20

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.  And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.  And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not...But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;  And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;  Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:  Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;  But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.  These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.  For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.  While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.  For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.  For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.  But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.  II Pet 2:1-3, 12-22

For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ....But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.  Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.  These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;  Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.