Schwazenneggar and Abortion

[enchilada]

Tony,

You have taken me out of context.  But that's okay, because in a issue as this, it happens.  

ESC research is a requirement in order to yield important discoveries.  There is always going to be murdered unborn babies, regardless of the presence of ESC research.  ESC research does not cause abortion.  Abortion is caused by other things, and it's those other things that warrants attention.  Bombing abortion clinics and killing doctors isn't going to stop it.    Neither is the rejection of ESC research.   If you want abortion to stop, outlawing ESC research won't do it.  The only thing that will stop abortion is forcing all the women that are too stupid to use effective birth control to wear locked chastity belts, and all likeminded men to be injected with something that shuts down the machinery.

Sure, there are a handful of scientists that lie about their research findings for grant money.  Chasing grants is a form of academic welfare that all researchers engage in, and there will always be the cheats.  However, as in all research endeavors, they are outnumbered by the honest scientists such as those that contribute to finding cures for alzheimers, etc.  There are also those who spend their entire careers discovering nothing but perhaps a tiny step in the path that leads to the big discoveries.  I know some of the honest researchers, and some of the cheats too, but overall, I find it best to leave them alone and let them do what they do.  

Your other comment about me advocating the death of humans for organs is also out of context.

Anyway, it's been interesting seeing where people stand on this issue.  But since I am the king here, everybody is obliged to agree with me.

[vernecarty]

If his arguement is acceptable, then stem cell research might also be.  After all, the cost/benefit ratio of stem cell research appears more favorable than that of nuking the muslim cities.  

If the unborn could be shown to be future terrorists, then your comparison of these two somewhat different ideas has merit.

I always consider the unborn to be innocent, whereas the citizens of countries we are at war with I deem enemies.

A generation ago, it was considered proper to kill one's enemies, a la Hiroshima, Nagasaki.  At the same time, abortion was illegal and not federally funded.

Today, it is considered proper to kill the unborn, and build schools for one's enemies.

I just have a hard time with this.

Brent

British historian Arnold Toynbee has convincingly shown that with very few exceptions, (nineteen of twenty two) civilizations that "achieved" the level of corruption evident in America were utterly destroyed.
"Idols for Destruction" by Schlossberg should be required reading for every Christian if you can find it. It is interesting to me how certain books eventually become very hard to find. That book is prophetic.
In my opinion, things have gotten a lot worse since Toynbee made that statement.
He passed away in 1975
The killing of the unborn is akin to the kinds of things the Caananites were doing.
The Bible describes the consequences as the pollution of the very land these people occupied.
On this issue, we are most certainly treasuring up wrath for ourselves.
I expect to increasingly see perturbations in the natural world as well as an increasingly steep decline in our international stature, security and prosperity.
The dollar has lost thirty percent of its value against the Euro the last two years.
People paying attention made a killing on Forex.
I am personally convinced that the only thing staying the judgment of God is the nation's Christian witness, but just how much time do we have?!

  (anyone remember Piltdown man?"
  --Tony Edwards

I do.
A classic example of how latent racism, ethnocentricity and godless naturalism can influence the course of "scientific progress".
The remarkable desire of British intelligentsia to portray England as the "cradle of man's evolution" thus presenting "PIltdown Man" as the "Lord of all Creatiion" now seems hysterically funny.

What's wrong with Africa?  
Quite a number of very good folk bought it.

It reminds me of the racist physicist Shockley, who spent a lot of time trying to convince the world that people of African descent were genetically inferior.
Angela Davis embarrased him publicly when the question of the incidence of genetic diseases was raised...

Verne

[Oscar]

Folks,

Regarding the Piltdown Man hoax, and the beliefs and motives that made it possible.

Dr. Leakey, who made the finds in East Africa that provide the basis for the current belief held by naturalists that man originated Africa, did not believe that at the end of his career.

During the last 9 years of his life he believed that man had originally evolved in North America!  

Near Barstow, California there is a place called "Barstow Early Man Site" where he searched for "human" remains.  All he turned up was some rocks that appear to have been chipped into more useful shapes.

This is all contained in the book, "American Genesis" if you wish to check it out.

Modern evolutionists know this, but never mention because it points out the miniscule amount of evidence upon which human origins theories rest.  If it is brought to their attention, they just say he was losing it as he got old.  This, of course will become the stock explanation for athiest icon Anthony Flew's recent conversion to Deism as well.

There is, however, good DNA evidence that all modern humans are descended from ancestors who came out of Africa, say 50,000 years ago.

That, however, only proves that the ancestors lived in Africa, not that they "evolved" there.  Faith in human evolution is based on a very, very small amount of evidence.  That is why one find of some hominid creature's remains causes major rethinking of "family trees".

What the whole thing boils down to is that the human race has existed for perhaps 50,000 years, and there were some two legged creatures that lived before us that share our general skeletal design.

Now, as to the location of Eden....I can say with absolute certainty, "beats me."

Thomas Maddux

[vernecarty]

There is, however, good DNA evidence that all modern humans are descended from ancestors who came out of Africa, say 50,000 years ago.



Thomas Maddux

I thought they claimed "Lucy" was much older Tom.
The mitichondrial DNA studies were pretty good and quite conclusive, unlike the rank "Piltdown" amateurs...
In all fairness though, it was one of the British's own that exposed it...

skeletal design.

Now, as to the location of Eden....I can say with absolute certainty, "beats me."

Thomas Maddux

How come?


 And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;
 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the nyx stone.
And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.
And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.
Verne

[Joe Sperling]

At the "Barstow early man site" they did indeed find cutting tools and some ancient jewelry. At another site appx 150 miles northeast they found what appeared to be an ancient type of poker chip, and the remains of a wheel decorated with numbers in black and red, in which spun a small black marble. The only thing archaeologists could compare it to is what we call a roulette wheel.

They found an ancient stone carved with an ancient language that turned out to be Sumerian in nature. When they deciphered it, the closest interpretation they could make was "all you can eat, 3 shekels". Leakey may have really been on to something.

--Joe

[enchilada]

British historian Arnold Toynbee has convincingly shown that with very few exceptions, (nineteen of twenty two) civilizations that "achieved" the level of corruption evident in America were utterly destroyed.
Verne

Verne,
I havn't read Toynbee for a while, but if you measure the level of corruption by the abortion rate, then America is somewhere in the middle.  Eastern Europe, Africa, parts of Asia, South America and the Carribean have significantly higher abortion rates.  However, since it occurs in all countries (except maybe the Antarctic), looks like all countries are doomed.

[vernecarty]

British historian Arnold Toynbee has convincingly shown that with very few exceptions, (nineteen of twenty two) civilizations that "achieved" the level of corruption evident in America were utterly destroyed.
Verne

Verne,
I havn't read Toynbee for a while, but if you measure the level of corruption by the abortion rate, then America is somewhere in the middle.  Eastern Europe, Africa, parts of Asia, South America and the Carribean have significantly higher abortion rates.  However, since it occurs in all countries (except maybe the Antarctic), looks like all countries are doomed.

I am not sure where  you got your statistics Dan but I did not think you were right about Africa and did a little checking. As I suspected. abortions in Africa are quite rare.
The Caribbean and South America are not major players either. Here is the breakdown by country:

   
       
 Definition: Legal abortions Per capita figures expressed per 1000 population.

 Amount
1. Russia 19.14 per 1000 people  
2. Bulgaria 12.87 per 1000 people  
3. Hungary 7.66 per 1000 people  
4. Cuba 7.45 per 1000 people  
5. Sweden 4.22 per 1000 people  
6. United States 4.17 per 1000 people  
7. Norway 3.00 per 1000 people  
8. Iceland 2.87 per 1000 people  
9. New Zealand 2.82 per 1000 people  
10. United Kingdom 2.78 per 1000 people  
11. Japan 2.69 per 1000 people  
12. France 2.67 per 1000 people  
13. Israel 2.53 per 1000 people  
14. Italy 2.31 per 1000 people  
15. Canada 2.19 per 1000 people  
16. Finland 1.90 per 1000 people  
17. Germany 1.18 per 1000 people  
18. India 0.56 per 1000 people  
19. Greece 0.11 per 1000 people  
20. Poland 0.01 per 1000 people  
 Weighted Average 2.93 per 1000 people  

Source: UNHDR (United Nations Human Development Reports)
 
In India and China there are cultural  and social pressures that result in the destruction of countless female infants.
Nonetheless, it would be a dreadful mistake to assess our culpability on a merely relativistic basis.
We, of all nations ought to know better.


whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.  
Verne

p.s. Touynbee in all likelihood did not have abortion at the top of his list....

[enchilada]

British historian Arnold Toynbee has convincingly shown that with very few exceptions, (nineteen of twenty two) civilizations that "achieved" the level of corruption evident in America were utterly destroyed.
Verne

Verne,
I havn't read Toynbee for a while, but if you measure the level of corruption by the abortion rate, then America is somewhere in the middle.  Eastern Europe, Africa, parts of Asia, South America and the Carribean have significantly higher abortion rates.  However, since it occurs in all countries (except maybe the Antarctic), looks like all countries are doomed.

I am not sure where  you got your statistics Dan but I did not think you were right about Africa and did a little checking. As I suspected. abortions in Africa are quite rare.
The Caribbean and South America are not major players either. Here is the breakdown by country:

   
       
 Definition: Legal abortions Per capita figures expressed per 1000 population.

 Amount
1. Russia 19.14 per 1000 people  
2. Bulgaria 12.87 per 1000 people  
3. Hungary 7.66 per 1000 people  
4. Cuba 7.45 per 1000 people  
5. Sweden 4.22 per 1000 people  
6. United States 4.17 per 1000 people  
7. Norway 3.00 per 1000 people  
8. Iceland 2.87 per 1000 people  
9. New Zealand 2.82 per 1000 people  
10. United Kingdom 2.78 per 1000 people  
11. Japan 2.69 per 1000 people  
12. France 2.67 per 1000 people  
13. Israel 2.53 per 1000 people  
14. Italy 2.31 per 1000 people  
15. Canada 2.19 per 1000 people  
16. Finland 1.90 per 1000 people  
17. Germany 1.18 per 1000 people  
18. India 0.56 per 1000 people  
19. Greece 0.11 per 1000 people  
20. Poland 0.01 per 1000 people  
 Weighted Average 2.93 per 1000 people  

Source: UNHDR (United Nations Human Development Reports)
 
In India and China there are cultural  and social pressures that result in the destruction of countless female infants.
Nonetheless, it would be a dreadful mistake to assess our culpability on a merely relativistic basis.
We, of all nations ought to know better.


whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.  
Verne

p.s. Touynbee in all likelihood did not have abortion at the top of his list....

Verne, Here's a link to where I got the stats:http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/25s3099.html

The data is too voluminous tp paste here, but that's where I got it.
Where did you get your's?

"To whom data is given, sources are required".  Thanks for reminding me of the need to back up claims with data.

Dan

[vernecarty]

United Nations Human Development Reports.
I will look a little wider.

Verne

[enchilada]

United Nations Human Development Reports.
I will look a little wider.
Here is some interesting commentary on Toynbee:

"Implications for America

In 1944 Toynbee concluded, based on his studies, that Western Civilization was about to decline. He said that our culture was losing faith in our foundational vision. He went on to predict the multiplication of competing and contradictory opinions that would gradually be introduced into the public consciousness. Calling it "Post-modernism," he described a period of de-construction, as he termed it, of our religious and philosophical values and a period of re-construction in which new opinions would emerge. He even accurately identified many of the opinions that have subsequently been introduced. Consequently, some of his admirers consider him almost a prophet."

Verne

Sounds good.  My stats are from year 1999.  I will compare yours to mine and see where the differences are.

Regarding the reference to Toynbee, I just saw the following headline from today's CNN website:

__________________________________
Judge denies atheist's lawsuit to prevent prayer at Bush inauguration
Friday, January 14, 2005 Posted: 4:52 PM EST (2152 GMT)
WASHINGTON (AP) -- An atheist who tried to remove "under God" from the Pledge of Allegiance lost a bid Friday to bar the saying of a Christian prayer at President Bush's inauguration.

U.S. District Judge John Bates said Michael Newdow had no legal basis to pursue his claim because he could not show he would suffer any injury from hearing the prayer.

Bates also ruled that Newdow's claim should be denied because he already had filed and lost a similar lawsuit ............bla bla bla
_______________________________________

Things can't be all that bad.....

Dan

[al Hartman]

Such discussions as this one often bring to mind GG's infamous saying, "A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still," a failed attempt at quotation which made no sense as he stated it, but he never let that stop its repetition.

This thread's pros & cons of the past several days bring to mind these scenarios:

[1.]  The subordinate officers tried as war criminals whose plea is, "The atrocities would have continued with or without my participation.  Therefore I saw nothing to be gained by taking a stand which would have brought about my imprisonment or death without changing anything."

[2.]  The Donner party:  The whole company was trapped for the winter and without victuals: doomed to probable death by starvation and cold.  Therefore it made perfect sense to those who survived longer to eat the corpses of those who had died, to increase their own chances to survive as long as possible.

[3.]  In the case of genuine persecution of Christians, is it ever preferable to deny Christ publicly in order to avoid imprisonment or execution, so that one might continue serving Him secretly?

[4.]  For those who believe in an age at which children begin to be held accountable:  would it not be better to kill ALL children prior to their reaching that age, thus assuring their salvation, than to allow them to mature and risk their being lost and damned?

These may seem to some readers to be foolish and unrelated to the theme(s) under discussion here, but there is a point:  The answers to these questions may seem absurdly obvious to you, me, or someone else, but we must each arrive at our own decision, a concept reflected in Rom.14:5b, Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind, (although the passage addresses other topics).  As we each "voted our own conscience" in the recent elections, so must we each determine our opinion in all such matters of this world.  

We may arrive at these positions spontaneously, or we can commit them to prayer and study of God's Word, earnestly seeking to know His will.  I suggest that safety in spontaneity is only possible to those whose spirituality is secure in Christ Jesus.

al

[vernecarty]

United Nations Human Development Reports.
I will look a little wider.

Verne

That UNHDR report is bogus.  The population division of the UN  secretariat also significantly differs from that report. I have not seen the raw data but eveything else I have seen suggests that they have grossly underestimated the world-wide rates of abortions. Unlesss they are referring to only so called legal abortions, they are monstrously massaging the data...figures...
Verne

p.s. oops! I just noticed that it does indeed say legal doesn't it?
Liars!

[enchilada]

United Nations Human Development Reports.
I will look a little wider.

Verne

That UNHDR report is bogus.  The population division of the UN  secretariat also significantly differs from that report. I have not seen the raw data but eveything else I have seen suggests that they have grossly underestimated the world-wide rates of abortions. Unlesss they are referring to only so called legal abortions, they are monstrously massaging the data...figures...
Verne

p.s. oops! I just noticed that it does indeed say legal doesn't it?
Liars!

Verne,

I don't know whose stats are more accurate.  You have a source that's different than mine.  My numbers are different than your's, and each of us has a bias.  

On you comments regarding the destruction of the United States as a result of the corruption that inhabits it, all I can say is that every great country throughout history had a rise and fall.  If it falls during my lifetime, I'll just move to Canada where I can get free medical coverage and cheap lumber for home construction projects.  Either way is fine with me.  The only problem is that I'd be further away from the Carribean, where I've often wanted to go for a nice vacation.

[vernecarty]

United Nations Human Development Reports.
I will look a little wider.

Verne

That UNHDR report is bogus.  The population division of the UN  secretariat also significantly differs from that report. I have not seen the raw data but eveything else I have seen suggests that they have grossly underestimated the world-wide rates of abortions. Unlesss they are referring to only so called legal abortions, they are monstrously massaging the data...figures...
Verne

p.s. oops! I just noticed that it does indeed say legal doesn't it?
Liars!

Verne,

I don't know whose stats are more accurate.  You have a source that's different than mine.  My numbers are different than your's, and each of us has a bias.  

I am not sure our perspectives are so different.
I think the guys I cited just list what they call "legal abortions" which represents probably less than half of all that occur. You were right that by either source the U.S. falls around the middle of the pack with regard to frequency.

On you comments regarding the destruction of the United States as a result of the corruption that inhabits it, all I can say is that every great country throughout history had a rise and fall.  If it falls during my lifetime, I'll just move to Canada where I can get free medical coverage and cheap lumber for home construction projects.  Either way is fine with me.  The only problem is that I'd be further away from the Carribean, where I've often wanted to go for a nice vacation.

May I humbly suggest Tortola in the British Virgin Islands?
If you like snorkeling I've got a couple of great suggestions.
Scuba diving even better.
I also got a few acres over-looking the Caribbean Sea and I am going to need some good builders next year so let me know if you are available...
Verne

p.s Hey Mark C,  have you renewed your open sea certification?

[Mark C.]

Thanks for thinking of me Verne!

  I did a week's worth of diving in the Coral Sea when I viisted Australia last May and so I guess that was a pretty good renewal of my antiquated certification (certified in 1967 by L.A. County Parks and Recreation  )

  Five years prior I did some diving on Saba and Statia.  The next time I try it I will have to embark on an excercise regimen, as both my legs cramped up on the first dive(just call me Grandpa  )!  Very embarassing being pulled out of the water by the little lady divemaster !  (but hey----  I look like a real man in my shark picture!

  However I would love to both meet and dive with you in the BVI!

  Dan:  Marcia informs me that they live in igloos in the winter, so the cheap lumber would only supply a summer home.  P.S.--- Summer lasts only a month and a half, and so for the rest of the year it is the Great White North!

                                God Bless, Mark C.