Hell's a little fuller

[editor]

Brent, I think so many of us were taken advantage of in the Assm that its hard to trust anyone,(like x-files,trust no-one) we always have our guard up, I know the feeling.

Yep, although I trust plenty of people.  I can honestly say that my experience in the past has not ruined my ability to trust.

Also God loves the honest heart, better to be honest then hypocritical, as God see's and knows our hearts. He wants us to be real with him, otherwise what's the point, were only fooling ourselves. Anyways I like what you wrote and can relate.

I agree.  I clearly remember being a hypocrite, and staying home and complaining about the state of things in The Assembly to my wife, but then when I went to the meetings I would say,  "Praise the Lord."  Disgusting!  

After I left I finally figured out that I needed to say something, and that God wasn't going to heap coals fire on their heads, or move them to righteousness, blah blah blah.  He was waiting for one of His own to trust Him and grow a spine.

One good way I was changed as a result of the past is that people know where I stand on things now.  People who know me may disagree with me, but they are always clear on where I am coming from and what I believe.  While it is harder to have a phoney smile and play act, it is much better to have meaningful relationships based on integrity and mutual respect.

Arthur, Yassars wife gets 22million a year out of Arafats 4 billion stash, not bad,eh. Also most Arabs have a thing for blonds, could explain the blond hair, and their are some blond Iranians I worked with one, he told me about it.

I thought I read that she gets 22 million a year from the Palestinian "State."  This is over and above what Yasser may have been worth.  Last night I was reading about Yasser's billions, and the person writing the article said that the Palestinian Authority's finances were centrally controlled by Yasser, meaning that there was a high temptation for impropriety, and very little in the way of a paper trail.  (sound familiar?)http://in.news.yahoo.com/041112/137/2hugd.html

The various banking governments and at this moment attempting to sort out what he owned and who it now belongs to.  The author concluded that even without a paper trail, there are ways of tracking this sort of wealth, and that although it is difficult, it can and will be done.

Yasser is a common thief and extortionist, not to mention the father of modern terrorism.  He also got a Nobel Peace Prize....what a joke.

He died in France, not Palestine, which just seems right to me.  He never achieved his goal, but he did manage to live high on the hog at the expense of the people who supported him.

The blond hair thing is well noted.  When I was in Israel, with a blonde haired girl as travelling companion, a bunch of Arabs pinned her up against a wall in the Arab section, and began to grope her and touch her hair, saying, "Blondie."  I shoved two or three out of the way and they left her alone.  I was amazed that they would do this, but learned later that Arabs view women as top livestock, so it was really not much different than petting a horse at the state fair.  Such a noble culture!  Death to the Jews!  Death to America!

Brent

[frostbittentoads]

Summer007:

The assm definately had some lasting effects on all of us... those effects differ depending on independent experiences. But I understand what you mean...

In the assm, I know that I would hide who I reallywas because I thought I was such a horrible person, and to live that openly would be to make a bad situation worse- I was afraid of the leaders, my peers, and the other "saints".

I think what's important, and I know someone said this earlier (probably more eloquently...)- honesty is the only and best way to go. So yeah, sometimes it might be hard to trust other people, it might be hard to let people in, but if you're honest and objective about it, that can change. But healing like that takes time. So just hang in there summer, there are people out there who are cool and trustworthy. You just have to find them. You'll know who they are when you meet them though- they'll be the only people around who aren't trying to be something they're not.

[moonflower2]

Remember, the sword will never depart from the house of David...
Verne

I've got a couple of questions:

1)Does this prophesy mean to include all of Israel?

2) What does Daniel 11: 14 mean? Who are the "robbers" or as another version puts it: "violent men"  who are trying to establish the vision? Zionists? or does this refer to Israel's enemies?

Thanks,
Moonflower

[editor]

Remember, the sword will never depart from the house of David...
Verne

I've got a couple of questions:

1)Does this prophesy mean to include all of Israel?

2) What does Daniel 11: 14 mean? Who are the "robbers" or as another version puts it: "violent men"  who are trying to establish the vision? Zionists? or does this refer to Israel's enemies?

Thanks,
Moonflower

I have another question regarding all of this.

As Christians, we firmly believe a few things regarding the nation Israel.  Certainly the vast majority of believers hold to the idea that Israel is going to be surrounded by enemies and defeated 3.5 years into the seventieth week of Daniel.  We know that the nations will rage, and that things are going to get worse, not better, etc.

Given this, should we take a deterministic approach to world issues, knowing that it's all going to happen as spelled out, regardless of what anyone does, or should we try to make a difference?

I don't know this to be true, and certainly won't defend it vehemently, but it seems to me that if Christians remain salt and light, and if nations do what's right regarding Israel, we postpone The Day of God's wrath.

I know there are some big holes and problems with the paragraph above, but there are also some good reasons to substantiate it.

Anyone have any ideas on the matter?

Brent

[vernecarty]

Remember, the sword will never depart from the house of David...
Verne

I've got a couple of questions:

1)Does this prophesy mean to include all of Israel?

2) What does Daniel 11: 14 mean? Who are the "robbers" or as another version puts it: "violent men"  who are trying to establish the vision? Zionists? or does this refer to Israel's enemies?

Thanks,
Moonflower

I have another question regarding all of this.

As Christians, we firmly believe a few things regarding the nation Israel.  Certainly the vast majority of believers hold to the idea that Israel is going to be surrounded by enemies and defeated 3.5 years into the seventieth week of Daniel.  We know that the nations will rage, and that things are going to get worse, not better, etc.

Given this, should we take a deterministic approach to world issues, knowing that it's all going to happen as spelled out, regardless of what anyone does, or should we try to make a difference?

I don't know this to be true, and certainly won't defend it vehemently, but it seems to me that if Christians remain salt and light, and if nations do what's right regarding Israel, we postpone The Day of God's wrath.

I know there are some big holes and problems with the paragraph above, but there are also some good reasons to substantiate it.

Anyone have any ideas on the matter?

Brent

A thought-provoking question indeed. It seems to be that ultimately the destiny of the nation will not be affected by our choices, but our destiny will.
As soon as God completes the church, all hell is going to break loose.
No question its presence now has an incredibly restraining effect.
The Biblical teaching is quite clear regarding how God views the world based on its behaviour towards His own so for the Christian, how we should think about and act toward the Jewish people is in no way in doubt. This is fundamental.
This, by the way, does not mean that we cannot criticise the nation's  leaders.
The way to avoid the paralysis of deterministic thinking is to clearly understand that what is also being worked out in time and space is the destiny of individuals, that is to say , your destiny and mine. This puts us, as it were, in the thick of it...like or not.
Verne

[summer007]

Just a thought; Won't the World be thrilled when all of the sudden Christians are removed from the earth. I wonder what explaination will be given, the process of evolution?, alien abuction, who knows? What will probibly matter to them is their same-sex marrages, and the convenience of the chip in their right hand or forhead, that Christian groups were opposing so venemently. Now they can elect the One World Ruler of their choice, not knowing its the Devil incarnate right out of the bottonless pit. Oh he'll give them the 3.5 years of false-peace, everything will be rosy for that period of time. There will be some who discover whats going on and refuse the mark, they will be beheaded, and just thought of as insane to not go along with this great plan. (tribulation believers) Then the Jews will see the Abomination of Desolation sitting in the temple and they'll know they've been fooled. About this time the seals are opened, then the seven trumpets, the seven woes, and the last seven plagues. Then the Lord will return and Rule and Reign forever.

[summer007]

Emily, Thanks for your sweet encouraging word. I'm hangin in there. God Bless You! Summer.

[vernecarty]

Just a thought; Won't the World be thrilled when all of the sudden Christians are removed from the earth...

A world with no church will be rapidly over-run by every evil, repugnant and foul spirit imaginable.
Mankind will finally get a  glimpse of the  true nature of sin.
The kind of frightful assault on the souls of men that is now only hinted at in the worst of nightmares and the most initiated of the horror novelists will become a thing of common experience. Men who have rejected Christ will rapidly learn who is their true master...it's gonna get very ugly....but it will also probably be the biggest harvest of souls for Christ the world has ever seen.
Verne

[moonflower2]

Remember, the sword will never depart from the house of David...
Verne

I've got a couple of questions:

1)Does this prophesy mean to include all of Israel?

2) What does Daniel 11: 14 mean? Who are the "robbers" or as another version puts it: "violent men"  who are trying to establish the vision? Zionists? or does this refer to Israel's enemies?

Thanks,
Moonflower

Verne,

Someone has said to me that the "sword will never depart from David's house" means only the immediate family of David's. I believe that it goes farther than that, and since you used the phrase in that context, can you give your supporting arguments for it?

Who are the "robbers of your people", in Daniel 11? Zionists? From articles I've read on the web, not all Jews are Zionists.

Thanks,
Moonflower

[summer007]

I do not want to be here; When the sun is darkened and the moon is turned to blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord. (Joel 2) Can people be saved that have recieved the mark? or have they eternally dammed their souls? There's a verse in revelation that suggests if you take the mark you've really sold your soul. Yet in Joel it says whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

[moonflower2]

I do not want to be here; When the sun is darkened and the moon is turned to blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord. (Joel 2)

Me neither. There are some countries in which it seems they are already a hell on earth. Imagine that across the whole world, and worse.

Can people be saved that have recieved the mark? or have they eternally dammed their souls? There's a verse in revelation that suggests if you take the mark you've really sold your soul. Yet in Joel it says whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

I'm thinking that they won't be able to call on God after receiving the mark. Receiving the mark will seem to be the only logical option for them, and they may have literally sold their souls. Maybe the same principle of Esau, who couldn't repent afterwards.

[vernecarty]

Verne,

Someone has said to me that the "sword will never depart from David's house" means only the immediate family of David's. I believe that it goes farther than that, and since you used the phrase in that context, can you give your supporting arguments for it?

Who are the "robbers of your people", in Daniel 11? Zionists? From articles I've read on the web, not all Jews are Zionists.

Thanks,
Moonflower

That is technically true. I think that you could make the case though, that since David was of the tribe of Judah, the standard-bearer, and that what he did he did in his capacity as king of the nation, that it has national implications.
I do realise that this is open to debate and don't want to be dogmatic on this point.
The robbers are quite interesting. The way I think about this is from the perspective of what is most unique about the Jewish nation. We are in debt to them for both the Holy Scriptures and the Messiah.

And in those times there shall many stand up against the king of the south: also the robbers of thy people shall exalt themselves to establish the vision; but they shall fall.  Dan. 11:14  


If I were to think about robbery, it would be with respect to these two greatest of treasures.
One way to rob a peson is to profer a counterfeit.

Can people be saved that have recieved the mark? or have they eternally dammed their souls? There's a verse in revelation that suggests if you take the mark you've really sold your soul. Yet in Joel it says whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Interesting question.
I do not believe they can.
the implication is of course that there are certain things that you could do which would preclude your being able to call on the name of the Lord in the sense Joel means.
There are places in Scirpture where God specifically says that some will call to Him but He will refuse to answer them.
Do not forget that the concept of eternity includes not only the infinite future, but also the infinite "past"!
Ask yourself the question - when did God first think of you?

Some will object on the basis of time's (more precisely  space-time) having a "beginning" but that is another topic.  
Your use of the expression "eternally damned their souls" is packed more full of theology than you probably realise!  
People who accept the mark of the beast fall into an extremely rare category of individuals described in the Scripture.
From what is said about this select category, one has to conclude that for them there will be no salvation.
The group includes:
Angels that sinned, Judas the son of perdition, those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit, (and no, I do not know what this means!) false prophets/teachers, and those receiving the mark of the beast and worshipping him....
I cannot think of any greater demonstration of God's remarkable mercies than that none of us who are saved can ever fall into such a frightful category...God is good!

Verne

[moonflower2]

Verne,

Someone has said to me that the "sword will never depart from David's house" means only the immediate family of David's. I believe that it goes farther than that, and since you used the phrase in that context, can you give your supporting arguments for it?

Who are the "robbers of your people", in Daniel 11? Zionists? From articles I've read on the web, not all Jews are Zionists.

Thanks,
Moonflower

That is technically true. I think that you could make the case though, that since David was of the tribe of Judah, the standard-bearer, and that what he did he did in his capacity as king of the nation, that it has national implications.
I do realise that this is open to debate and don't want to be dogmatic on this point.
The robbers are quite interesting. The way I think about this is from the perspective of what is most unique about the Jewish nation. We are in debt to them for both the Holy Scriptures and the Messiah.

And in those times there shall many stand up against the king of the south: also the robbers of thy people shall exalt themselves to establish the vision; but they shall fall.  Dan. 11:14  


If I were to think about robbery, it would be with respect to these two greatest of treasures.
One way to rob a peson is to profer a counterfeit.

You are suggesting then that the robbers are Israel's enemies, and not Jewish people? What vision, then, are Israel's enemies aware of that they trying to establish? The antichrist?

Moonflower
 

Can people be saved that have recieved the mark? or have they eternally dammed their souls? There's a verse in revelation that suggests if you take the mark you've really sold your soul. Yet in Joel it says whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Interesting question.
I do not believe they can.
the implication is of course that there are certain things that you could do which would preclude your being able to call on the name of the Lord in the sense Joel means.
There are places in Scirpture where God specifically says that some will call to Him but He will refuse to answer them.
Do not forget that the concept of eternity includes not only the infinite future, but also the infinite "past"!
Ask yourself the question - when did God first think of you?

Some will object on the basis of time's (more precisely  space-time) having a "beginning" but that is another topic.  
Your use of the expression "eternally damned their souls" is packed more full of theology than you probably realise!  
People who accept the mark of the beast fall into an extremely rare category of individuals described in the Scripture.
From what is said about this select category, one has to conclude that for them there will be no salvation.
The group includes:
Angels that sinned, Judas the son of perdition, those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit, (and no, I do not know what this means!) false prophets/teachers, and those receiving the mark of the beast and worshipping him....
I cannot think of any greater demonstration of God's remarkable mercies than that none of us who are saved can ever fall into such a frightful category...God is good!

Verne

Is this Calvinistic thought?   I think that GG preached that it was possible for us as saved individuals to take the mark of the beast, meaning that there are probably other Christians who teach that, too?

Moonflower

[summer007]

It seems clear in Rev14:9-11 that anyone who recieves the mark will drink of the wine of the wrath of God that is poured out with-out measure into the cup of his indignation. So I think the ones who'll be saved in the trib period are ones who realize Jesus is the Messiah and believe and refuse the mark, therefore they should be killed Rev 13:15-17. So how do the Jews get through the 3.5 year period, with-out taking the mark, or do only some of them take it? or maybe they are just getting the enforcement underway, when they realize the Truth.

[summer007]

There's a Story I heard of a man who was being resusitated at the hospital, apparently he had clinically died. He saw the tunnel and about three or four benign looking people there that said come on we've been waiting for you, as he walked with them down the tunnel or passageway, they became meaner by the minute and more sinister when they arrived in hell they started biting, and scratching him, hitting and pounding on him, he said the thing was he knew he deserved it, and then he saw the Lord passing by and he called out to Jesus something like help-me , and the demons or former pals, whoever they were, drew back repelled at the name of Jesus. The Lord came and carried him out of the hell he was in. At this point he was resusitated and gave his life to God.