GRACE AND TRUTH:

[trockman]

Hi Kim

For almost a year after we left, we only wanted to hear about the love of God, and the Grace of God, the only thing that could quench our spiritual thirst. In my opinion, no one preaches these two topics better than a reformed (Calvinist) preacher.  During the reformation, God recovered the key doctrine of Justification by Grace, through faith alone, and the ones he used to bring the message were the reformers.  Among these, Luther and Calvin were the giants in this era.

Arminianism is not named after the country, Armenia, but after a person, Arminias. Arminias taught, in addition to free will, that a person could lose their salvation. This is the main objection to Arminianism.

Calvin taught that God predestined some for wrath, and that Christ didn't die for everyone, but only the elect. This is know as Limited Atonement.  I have a problem with that as well.

There is an age old debate going on to this day regarding these two views.  One thing that hooked me into the Assembly, was the way George seemingly sewed the two together, with Justification by faith, but Sanctification through works and obedience.

However, I now believe that we are saved, entirely, by Grace through faith, not of ourselves. Otherwise, we would be able to boast.  I also believe that we have free will, although it doesn't negate God's sovereignty. The fact that we might do things that honor God is evidence of salvation, not a means of earning it.

The reformed Gospel put exactly this joy and freedom into me, in much the same way that you describe.

I consider myself a 3.5 point Calvinist, as opposed to the full 5 points.  Frankly, I don't understand it all  , so when I see the passages that talk about God's soverignty, I rejoice in them, and when I see the places that talk about man's responsibility, I prayerfull consider them, and rejoice in doing it.  The one thing that both camps agree about is that we are Accepted in the Beloved.

Although I am not trying to plug Calvary Chapel, Chuck Smith does have a great booklet on Calvinism vs. Arminianism.  Many theologians might consider it a lightweight approach, which it probably is.  but on the other hand, Paul talked about the simplicity that is in Christ.  I love the booklet. I think it is on the web somewhere.

Anyhow, I highly recommend that you delve into the different views on free will/election, etc.  

Isn't it shocking how little we really know, when at one time we thought we were so smart?

Brent

[Suzie Trockman]

Hello Kim

I was motivated by what you had to say in your post about us gals not contributing.  I have something on my heart to share, but understand that I am so busy schleping kids around that I just haven't had time.  Maybe thats why all these men have so much time to post!  

No, seriously, I am going to write something later, but soon. I have a lot to say, as do many of the other women who read on this board.

Suzie

[Mark C.]

Hi All,
 Kim, I know exactly what you mean when you talk about the discovery of election vs. a realtionship by merit.  The church I attend is Reformed and can they preach the gospel!
  GG used to quote all the old godly Puritans like Owen and made it seem that they supported his views of holiness.  It was Lee Iron's reading and discovery of the context of what these writers' had to say that showed him GG was a false teacher.  All these holy men who so desired to live a holy life were Reformed theologians.  GG taught that to except Evangelical teaching on salvation/Christian living would lead to a shallow life.  The name "Puritan" was not a name these people took to themselves but one that was assigned them by those that observed their lives.  Their lives displayed that to really understand salvation by grace leads to a holy life.  GG wanted to "get beyond" justification and on to sanctification, but to really understand justification leads to the joy of sanctification!
  Also, Kim, I have an extra copy of "Recovering from Churches that Abuse" by Enroth if you still can't find it.  E-mail me your address and I will mail it out to you.
   Great thought Greg on the Word of God.  That will be my next topic under "communion" and I look forward to your comments on same.
   Suzie,  with five kids I wonder that you have time to sleep.  Of course in the Assembly such a burden would have been a nightmare.  The only advantage to having kids in the Assembly was when one of them were sick (and at least one always is) you got to stay home.
                                          God Bless,  Mark

[Mark C.]

Hi All,
  I was hoping that some Assembly "guests" might pop in and argue against some of the points' that I and others have made here.  Maybe I will sign up as a "guest" and try to represent your position? Anyway, I will continue with my thought's on communion and the Assembly.
  Greg has done a great job of illustrating the two different results of reading the Word: Before and After.  I'd like to explore GG's teaching and how it effects our inner life.
  GG believes that the only way to understand the Bible is to read it as a devotion (He did not like the phrase,"Bible Study" as he declared this was not what he was doing).      
 GG had us approach the Word via our hearts(after preparing our hearts via disciplines that purify same) and wait for God to "speak to us" through the verses read.  The same verses may say something completely different one day from the next as communion with God means "hearing God's voice" through the text.  It makes no difference to GG what the verses meant when first given, or what the context may be as "spiritual" minds receive God's living message.
 As I've mentioned before, GG feels free to change the words themselves if it continues the flow of his "vision".  Of course, if you come to chapter summary and share something that is contrary to GG's vision guess who has God's mind and who doesn't?(I've really seen him chew out some poor "Saint" who was only sharing what "God spoke to him".)
  GG taught that the natural man only had 2 ways to receive insight and that was philosophical and empirical (human wisdom and physical evidence). God's way, he taught, was via revelation. He taught even Christians who have the Holy Spirit need to learn this higher way of insight so that they would not be "dead Fundamentalists" or "lunatic Protestants"(the previous designations, it just so happens, cover all evangelical Christians).
  I will continue this thought in a later post.  Comments?
                                         God Bless,  Mark

[trockman]

Hello Everyone

It seems to me, that if God didn't want us using our intellects, He would not have authored the Bible.  In order to learn about Him, we must be able to:

[read][make comparisons to historical events][reason][/list]

If we neglect this, and go solely by "revelation," there is nothing to stop us from barking or claiming to have been abducted by aliens!

Brent

[Aslan213]

Hi Everyone,

<<Of course, if you come to chapter summary and share something that is contrary to GG's vision guess who has God's mind and who doesn't?(I've really seen him chew out some poor "Saint" who was only sharing what "God spoke to him".)>>

I don't know if this belongs in this section, but it reminds me of how GG and BG were never "in the flesh" at least not around any of the saints I knew.  The poor saints were the ones lacking vision and in the natural man.  It's funny that I never picked up on that in 18 years.

The Lord bless you,

Eric

[Mark C.]

Hi Greg and Others (good to talk to you on the phone Greg)
  I will be out of town and away from the computer this week and so will continue my thought re. communion and how the Assembly was off before I go.  Since this area is about grace, as well as truth, I would also like to share my opinion on what biblical communion is (and since it's Sunday).
   We were talking about hearing God's voice and knowing him via his Word.  GG made access a merit system that required manipulating the inner life to come to a state of higher consciousness ( A little Eastern Mysticism anyone?).  However,  GG's "vision" held the trump card over any other understanding of the Word.  This makes GG's brand of "devotional reading" particularly dangerous and open to manipulation of members by the Leadership.
   I would like to suggest a book recommended to me by Dave Sable when I first left: "How to read the Bible for all it's worth", by Gordon Fee and Douglas Stuart (Greg I'm mailing the book to you with the others).  In the book you learn that one must learn first how to study the Bible and to allow one's study to direct devotional meditation.  The Bible itself teaches us that "no scripture is of private interpretation" (in other words must be in context ).
  What context? The greatest revelation of scripture is Jesus Christ and him crucified= the gospel of the grace of God.  The Bible talks of communion as a remembering of what happened at Calvary; Why?  This is where we experience the blessing of the Holy Spirit ministering to our hearts and are filled with love, peace, hope, and joy! How?by trusting in the fact of Jesus work.  There is no inner soul searhcing here or self purfication effort ; just the realization of the fact of sharing in eternal life with God!  As we look away to Jesus the washing and renewing of the Holy Spirit does it's work.
   What if I'm very conscious of my sins and failures; is this a stumbling block?  Contrary to GG, Jesus promises to never abandon us and "those whom he justifies he will also glorify."  His grace is for all his children and is freely given.
   I know, dear Assembly friend, that you would say you experience the above communion experience every Sunday in worship and I did as well when with you.  I clung to the hope of the Cross then, as I do now; what's the difference?  My Assembly hope was a fleeting experience that was quickly lost as the feeling faded and my focus was directed to things of this life.  That experience then led to an attempt to renew that consciousness via supressing the "natural" man which led to failure, which led to guilt, and then to depression (this is a manic depression:highs and lows).
   In true communion there is no need for hypocrisy by putting on an outward show of righteousness.  We have freedom to be just what we are--  sinners saved by grace.
A common question from present Assemblyites to those who have left is, "Are you walking with the Lord?"  (Which means living an Assembly pretentious lifestyle.)  My answer is: He walks with me and talks with me and tells me I'm his own.  A Christian life that is gift based, vs. merit based, leads to a balanced "walk".  What is your life actually like my Assembly friend?  Blessing or curse?  If you're being robbed of your liberty in Christ you are missing out on what it really means to "walk" with the Lord.  God Bless,  Mark  

[Mark C.]

Hi Greg,
  Yes, fortunately I have forgotten many of the past rules, but thanks for the reminder.  I will make sure and call next time, but who should I seek permission from?  Do you think they would talk with me on the phone?  I can just imagine the conversation:
  "Brother, where have you been for the last 11 years?", says the leading Bro.
  Answer from me,"I've been out telling everyone how off base you guys are."
 Leading Bro. answers, "Lying, serving the Devil, and generally commiting great evil, huh?"
  I answer, "Yes, but I wanted to let you know why I couldn't attend the meetings for the last 11 years."
  Leading Bro., "Okay, as long as you let us know when you can't make it out to the meetings."
  I answer, "Then I better let you know I won't be out for the next 11 years as well because I'm going to be too busy with letting eveyone know what goes on over here."

   I notice that I've missed a lot of great discussion while I've been gone.  It is great to see so many getting involved in discussion.  I guess I shouldn't mention that it was good to talk to you again today on the phone, but since I'm breaking so many rules I might just as well go ahead and say it.             God Bless,  Mark

[Mark C.]

Hi All Assembly Lurkers,
  I'm would like to issue a special invitation to all Assembly Lurker friends to read this post and also to respond.  I know we tend to mix humor in with our discussion, as it is a means of dealing with our past presence in your midst.  I want you to know that I, and I'm sure many others here, are sincerely concerned with your well being and are not mocking you.  We are kind of laughing at ourselves as we were a part of the same ship that we would like to see righted.  
  The Scripture encourages asking questions re. the truth and never suggests that the enemy will use truth to bring down his Testimony.  Please check out the articles at this site and ask yourself if there is not a legitimate reason to question the Leadership and their behavior.  The longer you hide from the issues here the harder it will be to face them later on.
   This brings me to me concern for those in leadership.  You have been faithful to a ministry, but have you been faithful to God?  Honestly, what is your inner life, marriage, and family situation like?  Do you have issues buried deep within that are secret to all around you?  These issues are a time bomb ready to explode; you can not hide them forever and they will surely destroy you and your family!  How can I be so certain these buried issues will eventually burn you?  The above scenario is the life of the pharisee and is described by Jesus in very strong language(MT.23).
  I will talk about this some more in future posts and would invite you to discuss this with me.  I hope that you would find deliverance as you are responsible for many Little One's that desperately need help.  You have the truth of the Gospel, but block entrance to those who accept your conditional message of relationship with God.
                                     God Bless,  Mark

[Kimberley Tobin]

Our experience upon leaving the Assembly and reading Mathew 23 was eye opening.  Particularly verses 13-15 (go ahead and read them, in fact read the whole chapter, but for this purpose let’s concentrate on verse 15), “Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.”  The Assembly is so intent on indoctrinating everybody to the “Assembly” way and once they have, you begin doing to same thing to others.  The way we treated one another in the Assembly was anything but Christian.  Now that we have left, it is so refreshing to see that we don’t have to be the judge of everyone’s life.  The Lord is the judge.  It is my responsibility to love.  Isn’t that what Jesus said the first and second greatest commandment was?  This is what we are supposed to do in “fulfilling the law”.  Not following all of the Assembly’s rules, regulations, commandments, etc. in order to “inherit” and then of course making sure everyone else around us is toeing the line as well.

[Suzie Tr0ckman]

Hi Greg,  

I really enjoyed your last post regarding the unpardonable sin......a Christmas tree.

Our kids had become very judgemental towards other dear Christians, because they had trees.  They would say things like, "How can they be Christians since they have a tree?"  We didn't teach them this, but they applied our Assembly stand on Christmas like this on their own.  

I always had to explain how they were still Christians, even though they had a tree, and how it was pagan for us, and in the Bible, but was OK for their AWANA leader!  Kinda confusing, huh?

Last year, our second post-Assembly Christmas, I had a deep conviction that we should have a tree, for the simple reason that we needed to deliver the kids from that Pharisaic spirit.  It was kinda funny, because at first Brent didn't agree.  I was going to get an artificial tree at Costco, but in the end Brent said, "If we're gonna have a tree, it should at least smell good!"  So we got a very nice smelling tree and had our first Christmas as a family.  We kept it simple and low and behold, no one bowed down or sacrificed to the tree.

This year, we don't feel a need for a tree...because we are going skiing for 10 days.  They have trees-a-plenty on the ski slopes.  

Instead of a tree, we now have a beautiful manger scene, although I am keeping the wise men way to the east of the manger, to keep it scriptural.  .....

Suzie Tr0ckman

[Aslan213]

Hi Suzie and everyone,

Good to see your post.  Uhm...just a question, you're not going to ski during the Winter Seminar, are you?  

It's amazing that I can go about my daily life including vacations, Christmas, etc. and not feel guilty!  It's great to have liberty once again!  I have been set FREE!

I just had to get that out!

The Lord Bless you,

Eric

[Aslan213]

Hi Everyone,

Something I heard in ministry today.  "It is impossible to be in relationships and in control at the same time.  Either the control will destroy the relationship or the relationship will prevail over the control."

Did anyone notice:  GG has no personal friends to confide in.

I also met a family today that came out of cult.  It's interesting that this group also followed the New Testament pattern (they also had little growth).  Head coverings, all day for the Lord, stewardships, one guy on top that is unapproachable, everything is identical.  Except they do have a different guy on top.  

Oh...and one more thing, their view of the assembly...it's a counterfeit of their true church.    Some things never change with these groups.

The Lord Bless You,

Eric

[editor]

to use bold letters,

click on the bold icon
type the text to be bolded in between the

's
post message as usual.[/list]

Whatever you want to type, put it inbetween the [__]'s
Editor

[Mark C.]

Hi Everyone,
  Ah, dancing around the Christmas Tree and singing "Oh Christmas Tree" while drinking egg nogg and generally having a good time!  Shame on us all!
  I was going to continue my thought on Pharisee's and the Assembly from Mt. 23; the consideration has a lot of truth to it, but not much grace and as such I think I'll save it for a later time.  I'm just feeling too good today! (no, the eggnogg is not alcholic )
                                             God Bless,  Mark