GRACE AND TRUTH:

[Mark C.]

Hi Everyone,
  I'm like a kid in a candy store .  I think this is going to be my favorite spot!
 The Gospel is my favorite topic and one that I find is always fresh and new.
  Why do I like Grace so much?  Certainly because I need it so much; but how did I become so aware of my need?  My heart always hungered for a sense of completion instead of the emptiness I felt within( more on my story later).
  I found that completion in Jesus Christ, but then strayed into a path that sought to find that grace in a church here on Earth; that church was the Assembly.  Grace can not be found in a church, ministry, a great man of God, or any other thing apart from Christ himself.  Christ has not named any group on earth as his official administrator of grace as there is only one mediator between God and Man-- Christ.
  The Gospel is personal (God loves YOU as an individual, not the group) and loves you just as you are.  God does not love you because you can perform well in the Assembly or in any other church.  How can you worship, commune with God, fellowship, minister, meet, etc. correctly? By being in the right group?  The New Test. pattern is Jesus Christ and by knowing him we have all of the above.  Grace is all of God and to receive that Grace is to have God in his fullness!
 There is one caveat to receiving grace and that means I must give up my self righteousness.  Grace can not live where I try to serve God based on my own merits.  This is as true with the Christian life as at new birth.
   Assembly friend, accept nothing less than Christ and his grace that is sufficient for a full salvation.    
 God Bless,  Mark  

[trockman]

[shadow=red,left,300]Hi Mark![/shadow]
Welcome!
As usual, I love reading your posts. I think we are just getting warmed up here.

Hopefully I will be able to get more involved in the board now, things are getting easier to manage.

Keep the encouragements coming! I am so stoked by this whole thing.

Brent

[Aslan213]

Hi Mark & Others,

Mark, I always appreciated your gospels that you shared.  As is your character, you're in the candy store!  The article is excellent.  It is true to the Word!  It is true you're only going to find grace in Christ.  No service is going to "find" that grace for you.

Eric

[Mark C.]

Hi Eric, Brent, and I hope Others!
  Yes indeed, I am in the candy store!  What a great bulletin board and what a great opportunity to be a blessing to many!
  Eric, I'm glad that you always liked my sharing of the Gospel and I loved to share it.  I remember looking out over the "Saints" as I preached and seeing their poor dejected faces light up as they took encouragment in God's grace.  Too bad it was soon followed with the GG message of conditional grace (an oxymoron) and the same faces would be cast down to the ground again.  For the little sensitive one's the weight of trying to perform to "win Christ" took away any hope that they might be able to "lay hold" on God's grace .
   Brent, you and your website team have done a great job!  I may be up your way in a couple of weeks and would love to toast (Martinelli's Sparkling) you and yours!
                                        God Bless,  Mark

[Mark C.]

Hi All !
  I think that this is a good place to start up a conversation re. "Union and Communion".  It relates directly to a correct understanding of grace and a rejection of the Assembly teaching re. GG's false mysticism.  I realize Christians differ on their views as to the part played by the believer in the experience of communion with God and I certainly do not claim to be an expert on the subject.  However, there are some basic concepts that all Christian's must agree on or we depart from Biblical based belief.  These basic truths' are the one's I would like to establish and show how GG's departure's are closer to new age teaching then they are New Test.  Now I fully realize that GG mixes in much Christian orthodoxy and seems to contradict his own teaching at times, but until he clears up his error it is necessary to point it out.
  The issue of "union and communion" is of utmost importance for it can lead to great blessing or a great curse in our lives.  I hope for some good discussion on this topic as I do not intend to pontificate on the topic.  I think others will be able to add their story and perspective as it relates to the Assembly and widen our consideration.  I will discuss the concept of "Union" first at the next post.
                                                      God Bless, Mark

[Mark C.]

Union:
  The use of the word "union" is often confused with the experience of God in a believer's life and instead has to do with the fact of our place in Christ.  Our being united to Christ is due entirely to the work on the cross.  GG would confuse the understanding of union to mean our "taking the place" of victory and at that point we are then united.  Rom. 6 says that the work of God was sufficient to unite the believer in Christ.  To understand how our union leads to communion we must not isolate Rom.6 from Rom.7-8 as it helps us to understand the experience of the Christian in his actual daily life. We can't go into a vs. by vs. here as it would be too lengthy, but I would encourage reading all the above at one sitting to get the flow of thought.
   Why is it important to see the distinction between George's teaching on "union" and the way I describe it above?  To leave my union with Christ contingent on my own action leaves me to depend on the strength of my own will.  GG's teaching also leads to another dangerous element and that is basing my life with God on "the experience" of the Holy Spirit in my life.  This is where the false mysticism comes into play, as I have to try and manipulate my inner life through tricky inner doings to "win" the experience of victory.  Since, as GG teaches, Union is not a fact and victory must be grasped by the believer he opens the door to a whole set of discipline's that are designed to manipulate the inner life to a state that  experiences the blessing God has for us.  Many of us are familiar with these: The Heavenly Ladder, The Selfer's Prayer, etc.  This kind of direction sends us deep within to evaluate why we are not "laying hold" on the correct key that will achieve a pure undistracted communion with God.  This is usually identified with purity of thought as well as an emotional sense of ecstasy (more on the emotional aspects later).  
  I hope this will get us started on the topic and hope to get other's views.             God Bless,  Mark
   

[trockman]

Great topic Mark

I think you have it just right.  The Assembly teaching improperly shifts one's gaze off of Christ and on to Self.  How can it not?  Christ's work is finished, once and for all, but now, we were taught, IT IS UP TO US TO APPROPRIATE WHAT HAS ALREADY BEEN ACCOMPLISHED.

This is where the trouble comes. In this type of thinking, grace is reduced to a spiritual Gatorade, which only gives us the tools we need in order to do "His Works," which are nothing more than our works, in the final analysis.  If we neglect "His Works," as is the manner of some, we lose out.  Our spirits may be saved, but the other two thirds of salvation, soul and body, are up to us.  God is merely an investor, demanding a return on His investment, instead of a Saviour.

Keep it coming Mark.

Brent

[Mark C.]

Thanks Brent.  I was able to access the site via the instructions that you sent.  Thanks also for your comments.
  Communion:
     This is the topic that I'm still trying to understand what happened in my Assembly Experience and how to understand it now.  Discussing communion re. GG's teaching is also tough because it is so contradictory.  I also carried my B.C. (before Christ) baggage from my past experience in mysticism.  I hope to get a lot of help from others as they share their own understanding of GG's teaching and their experiences with same.
     As I previouly mentioned, under GG's incorrect understanding of salvation we have no foundation for a living relationship with God as our union is not assured and can be lost through our failure.  Of course, failure is where we most need God's presence in our lives.  Under GG teaching our inability to claim our union with God will multiply our despair.
    Having understand the above what then is Communion?  Communion is the actual experience of God in a believer's life.  I'm not going to go into a Greek word study here, though a study of subject would be interesting.  The way I understand communion is the experience of God's presence in my life.  We are told we have his presence and that indeed we can't escape it.  Communion involves not just the fact of his presence, but the enjoyment of it.  There are some things about this topic that defy explanation and will not fit neatly into a tract about "how to have communion."  We do have times when we have a sense of his presence with us, or that God is speaking to us.  We also can have emotional experiences that come from God (after all peace, joy, etc are all fruits of the H.S. and are surely emotional).
  So, how is GG off on this topic?  I think, though he would deny it, that he had us pursuing an inner feeling of purity that we achieved through our own discipline.  We were to charge into God's presence and "Win Christ" by means of purifying our hearts and minds first.  We had a process of purification ( this he exemplified through teaching re. the O.T. priesthood) of getting spiritual holy water and blood sprinkled on our hearts in order to ascend into his presence.  Of course after a glorious morning time we had to face the world and lost the whole experience after the first guy cut us off on the Fwy.  The whole experience above was very similar to my Eastern Religion styled mysticism and led to an unhealthy duplicity in my life.  You could see it in GG's life as well for he could be "caught up in worship" one moment and the next be shouting and fighting with someone in traffic ( Yes, he came to blows with some at times).
   Please share your thoughts on the topic with all.
                                              God Bless,  Mark

[trockman]

Hi everyone

I am starting to get the feel of this bulletin board now. The best way to check out what's new is to scroll down to new post's and click there, instead of winding all the way thru a thread.

Mark, with regard to communion, I was sailing in the British Virgin Islands in 1997, and went to a "cruiser's library" which is nothing more than a bar with a lending library. On your honor, you leave a book, and take one that is there.

Well, I wasn't interested in anything, but one book caught my eye, Commmunion, by Whitly Streiber. It was about UFO abductions!  Believe it or not, this got me to thinking, because all we had been hearing about for the last year was "communion."

I am convinced that communion with God is as simple as confessing our sins.  I know that His blood washes me, cleanses my conscience, and brings me near.  So I don't worry about it! I find myself thinking about the Lord, praying, speaking to Him (not out loud usually) and best of all, enjoying Him, all the time.

What interrupts this for me is when I fight with my wife, and am too proud to say I was wrong, or when I do something I know does not honor Him.  I have found that when I humble myself and confess, I know his presence again.  It has nothing to do with AM times, or prayer. I may read the Word everyday for a month, or I may not read it once for 2 weeks, although the latter is rare.  It doesn't matter, because my performance, or lack thereof, has no bearing on being accepted in the beloved.

Ah, the simplicity that is in Christ!

Brent

[Mark C.]

Hi Brent,
  Yes, GG subtlely led us away from simplicity in Christ.  The hard part to unlearn (for me) is the emotional patterns.  Sometimes I'll wake up in the morning and just FEEL impure, but with no clear reason why.  Under GG's system you develop a huge doubt re. your own inner condition and try to look for the same "feeling" of purity you had at high points in your life.  "High points" may be a good way to express it as one's search for "inner purity" becomes almost a narcotic desire.
    Sailing in the B.V.I.'s?  My Mother lives in the Caribbean; on a little island near St. Maarten.  Her house is for sale.
   I wonder if the Angels that visit GG and give him his revelation are UFO's?        God Bless,  Mark

[Kimberley Tobin]

I've been one of the lurkers, both here and at the Rick Ross site.  I have been wanting to "sound in" and contribute for quite some time.  For reasons I won't mention now, I need to be somewhat circumspect in what I contribute.  However, at some time in the near future, I will feel more at liberty to share all that is on my heart.

I want to say to all those who have contributed (Brent, Mark, Joe, David, Terry, Eric and not the least of which is my dear husband Greg, please forgive me if I have left someone out) it has been such a blessing to listen to the reasoning and discussion that has occurred at these sites (of course we were never encouraged to have THIS kind of dialogue in the past!)  I don't know what you all who left, prior to the internet being such a useful tool for this purpose did, in light of processing the devastation of leaving the assemby!  If we didn't have this vehicle, I would seriously have considered therapy-just to be able to dialogue and process the many years, stories, etc.  What a blessing - THIS IS FREE!!!!!  (A BLESSING UPON YOU BRENT-FOR I CAN'T IMAGINE WHAT THIS HAS COST YOU TO ESTABLISH THIS-THE LORD WILL RICHLY BLESS YOUR CONTRIBUTION!)

I was just thinking there has not yet been a sister who has contributed in these forums.  Does this proceed from our Assembly teachings?  I have never, nor will ever, be a silent sister.  I have opinions, beliefs and I think some wonderful conversation/thoughts to contribute to the body of Christ!

I want to say a special thank you, both to Mark and to Brent, for their wonderful insight into many of the Assembly teachings/practices, etc.  Your perspectives have weeded out the Assembly confusion and mumbo jumbo that we are indoctrinated with and oftentimes have put things so simply as to easily lay hold upon them (in contrast to the Assembly doctrine that is oftentimes shifting or confusing and not easily laid hold upon.)

I could continue and write a treatise (perhaps for another time) but will simply sign off with a HUGE THANK YOU!!!!!

FREE FROM BONDAGE, FINALLY AND FILLED WITH THE FRUITS OF THE SPIRIT!!!!!!

YOUR SISTER IN CHRIST,

KIMBERLEY

[Mark C.]

Hi Sister Kimberley !
  It was great to see your post!  I could feel the joy of deliverance from just reading what you had to say.  A Sister's place at this site is to step up to the BB and to state your heart! (unlike some places )
  I'm glad that you are finding help from what is posted and in turn others will find help from what you post.  That is the great thing about this kind of "fellowship" we all have a contribution to make that is unique.
  I'm wrestling right now with understanding communion as the Bible teaches it vs. GG's view.  It has been a very helpful topic because even after being gone 11 years I still suffer from my previous toxic faith.  Toxic is an appropriate term to describe GG's teaching as it "poisons the well", as Terry said.  Also, just having your thinking straight doesn't always cause the emotions to follow.  Irrational fear is just that, irrational.  Emotions can be damaged and this can  leave us wounded, though the Assembly is no longer taking it's whacks at us.  When we just shove down those emotions and try to "move on in our lives" we will have to face them somewhere down the line.  This is all to get to the point of agreement with your post that "talking" together with those who also have been through what you've been through is very helpful.
   I found few Christians in other churches that could understand what I was going through.  I wanted to tell my story, but people looked at me like I had a screw loose or that I was a weak person because I was duped by a group like the Assembly.  It is not a lack of intelligence, mental instability, or a weak character that led us into the Assembly, but a desire to achieve our best for God.  GG took advantage of that, but God always looked down on our hearts' and honored that desire.  I believe wounded pilgrims are very close to his heart indeed and that he will heal them and use them in a very special way.  More to say on that, but this post is too long!   God Bless,  Mark  

[trockman]

Hi Kim

Thank you so much for your kind words.  This has been a costly endeavor, but it has been money and time well spent.  Just so you all know, I have done very little work on this bulletin board. I have a silent partner, who has been working his tail off in the background.  You owe him a lot of the credit for the bulletin board. (of course it was my idea and credit card... ) Look for a brand new, way better site in the future.

With regard to sisters contributing, there are a number of them lurking about, and I know they will appear in time.  This isn't easy, because anyone who's name shows up here is going to get excommunicated, which can be traumatic.  As for me, I find it somewhat comical, but it is very hard for many. In time, with the likes of Mark Campbell, and others adding very good insight, more and more people will join in.

We already have well over 500 page views! The site is frequented by guests as well.

I do look forward to you writing something once you get things situated. And, I am so glad that this has been helpful.  Have you bought any of the books that we reccomend in the reading list?

The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse is an awesome book, and will help you tremendously.

Brent

[trockman]

 <<I found few Christians in other churches that could understand what I was going through.  I wanted to tell my story, but people looked at me like I had a screw loose or that I was a weak person because I was duped by a group like the Assembly.  It is not a lack of intelligence, mental instability, or a weak character that led us into the Assembly, but a desire to achieve our best for God.  GG took advantage of that, but God always looked down on our hearts' and honored that desire.  I believe wounded pilgrims are very close to his heart indeed and that he will heal them and use them in a very special way.>>

Sheesh Mark,

you made it to "full member before I did

You hit on a real key. I am convinced that people who were in the Assembly MUST talk about their experience with someone.  There are people out there who understand, but they are few and far between.  Believe it or not, ex JW's, who are now Christians seem to get it real quick.  Their culture is eeerily similiar to The Assembly.

Also, ex Local Church folks also "get it."  However, there is nothing like talking to a person who has been there.

The worst thing about GG's vision, is that it uses a person's sincere desire for God as a weapon for destruction.  This is a horrible thing to do, and George is only beginning to reap what he has sown.

You are right Mark, God does have a special plan for us.  We gain a discernment that is very costly, and there is much we can do to bless God's people where ever we fellowship.  

Something to keep in mind: Most of what we learned was good! However, the leaven of the bad, ruined much of the good. It takes a while to sort it all out, but it is not unlike Joseph in prison.  It was necessary for us to be in The Assembly, for a time.

Brent

[Kimberley Tobin]

re:  Calvinism vs. Armenianism

It is interesting how the Lord is using different things to teach Greg and I upon leaving the Assembly.  For purposes of writing this, I will only refer to what God is teaching me, in order not to misrepresent my husband.  In reading the testimony from Steve Irons as to why his family left the assembly, it was interesting to see Lee’s (Steve’s son) struggle with being a Calvinist and remaining in the Assembly (I don’t know if I am representing this correctly, please use grace in reading my interpretation of Steve’s letter.)

My husband and I read Steve’s letter the same weekend that the church where we have begun attending (for any Assembly members lurking out there, it is Shepherd’s Community Church-a great blessing and not at all a worldly church) was discussing in the bible study group Calvinism vs. Armenianism (spelling??)  If I understand it correctly (someone correct me if I am wrong), the Armenian position is that a believer has “absolute free will” in coming to salvation.  This is what the Assembly members are taught.  The Calvinist believes that God chooses those who are to be saved.  Some are appointed to salvation and others are appointed to damnation.  This is a difficult position to grapple with when you want to reach out to others with the gospel and you believe in a loving God who you can’t fathom would “choose some to damnation.”  Rather, I find the Calvinist position to be refreshing and liberating!  As the bible study leader continually would say to us, “let’s look at what the bible says.”  We actually had a dialogue in this bible study!  Encouraged to raise questions, issues, difficulties, etc. (in fact we were encouraged to do so.)  Not like the Assembly, where questioning a doctrinal teaching was tantamount to rebellion!  So….what did our study of the word produce?  Eph 1:4, “According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love.”;  1Pet 1:2, “Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father…”;  Rom 9:11, “(For the children being not born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;); (read vs. 12-14 as well) but for brevity continue in verse 15, “For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.”; (a verse we all know so well) Eph 2:8-9, “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”; and finally (though not an exhaustive study) John 6:44, “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.”

I have rambled….but for a purpose!  Why was this liberating?  Because through all these verses, I clearly saw how my salvation had nothing to do with me!  Not even my “free will” to choose to come to God!  God has done it all!  And if it is all God’s doing, than there is liberty to walk with him.  There is not a constant, nagging doubt and fear as to how I am measuring up to God.  And certainly because there is no direct “At a girl!” from God, I am continually questioning my standing with God.  Not with the Calvinist position.  Now, I am free to serve God, knowing that whatever I do for God is his doing anyway!  This completely removes all boasting!  Now I don’t measure myself against others either, trying to determine where in the kingdom I fall (always somewhere near the bottom as I never could measure up, as I had a child out of wedlock and was continually reminded of my sin through the dealings with my daughter!)

The thing is, whether you hold to a Calvinist position or an Armenian position doesn’t matter!  God is the only one who knows!  But as Steve’s letter pointed out, in the Assembly we weren’t allowed (and still aren’t) to hold our own doctrinal position based on faith and the reading of the word of God.  And this is what produces beaten down, depressed, oppressed, wounded Christians in the Assembly.  How tragic!

I should wrap this up!  I told you I would be sounding in with my points of view.  I will have much more to say, as time permits.  (BRENT-I DID GO TO THE BOOKSTORE JUST YESTERDAY TO TRY AND FIND SOME BOOKS AND COULDN’T REMEMBER WHAT YOU HAD SUGGESTED.  THEY DIDN’T HAVE ENROTH’S BOOKS AND IN FACT, IT COULDN’T EVEN BE ORDERED.  I WILL LOOK FOR THE BOOK YOU SUGGESTED HERE.  THANKS!)