GRACE AND TRUTH:

[Aslan213]

Hi Everyone,

I Corinthians 15:10-11  "But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me.  Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed."

I've been struck lately concerning the grace of God.  You know...it's the grace of God!  In the assembly the laboring "even more than all of them" was stressed but grace was left out.  What we saw was a mindset that "other churches preach only a half-gospel."  The laboring of the saints was stressed in the context of bringing glory to God (but really the assembly).

What I've been seeing in the Word of God is that God wants to work His grace through me.  It is not based on my works but on my obedience to His Word.  And it doesn't matter through which church the gospel is sent forth or through which person.  What matters is that the gospel gets out, that people believe!  This is so contrary to the law and works that we heard in the minstry.

[Aslan213]

Hi Everyone,

I came across something very interesting.  I did a search on "Geftakys" to see if the website showed up on a search engine.  It did and so did another website!  MINDSPRING.COM!

After reading their "statement of faith", I found out that George Geftaky's is quoted in there.  Specifically, "Royal Overcomers".  It seems they believe pretty much the same stuff.  So, maybe here's another instance that the "vision" is not all his own.

Eric

[trockman]

Hi Eric

I think I have seen that one too, and the author qoutes from George's book and then says, "Not an endorsement."  He seemed to like a certain quote.  

Not every sentence in GG's books, or speech is bad, some of it is quite good and Biblical.  The problem is the leaven, and the sin. There was plenty of good things there, that's what we need to sort out.

I love the way Rachel puts it in her most recent article,

It's Not About God!

Once we realize that the Assembly wasn't about God, but about the Assembly, we can take whatever was good and true, and start afresh in our relationship with Jesus.  That is what is so excellent about this website.

Yes, it is painful to find out that we have been duped by a fraud, but hopefully, we can keep the many good things we learned and with His grace, something beautiful and useful can come about.

For me, it has all been worth it.

Brent

[trockman]

Hello Everyone

I just finished reading Rachel's story, on the main website.  Even though I had read the first part of it nearly two years ago, I had not read it recently.  With the addition of the 3HO comparison, it is one of the most powerful things I have ever read.  (Perhaps because I was there, and remember so much of this.  I also regret so much of it, especially the part where I act like an Assembly coward and fire her from her job!)

If you haven't read this, YOU NEED TO!  RIGHT NOW!

I advise any current Assembly members who are lurking about to read this, and then ask questions.  I have already done so, and have been told,  "We didn't know,"  "David is no longer a worker," "He has repented," "All of this may never have happened,"  and my favorite, "There are no witnesses."  PUHLEEEZE!  

One of the saddest things I have had to endure lately, is a saint, who thinks they are so spiritual, brave and ethical, with nobility seeking the truth, firmly state that they are going to "investigate!"


Who then do they talk to for their "investigation?"  The same leaders who have been lying about all of this.  It's kind of like going Marlin fishing in a swimming pool.  You can have the chair, the tackle, the beer and the Mexican boat driver, but you won't get any marlin.

So, all  you "investigators,"  Why not try asking the people who were involved, instead of just accepting what the men committed to covering up have to say?

The truth is very painful in this case, but not nearly so excruciating as having to forceably sear your concsience to ignore what you  know to be true.  There are two choices, a long, but FREE road to healing...or a certain dark, stagnant, joyless existence.  On the former path, you have God's grace, in the latter, you have the leadership's appreciation.  

Prov 18:17  The first [one] to  plead  his cause [seems] right,  Until his  neighbor  comes and examines him.

Get the other side of the story, it's the godly thing to do.

OK, I'm climbing down off my soapbox

Brent

[Mark C.]

Hi All,
  I absolutely agree with you Brent!
   Rachel, you are to be commended for your great courage in sharing such a difficult and painful story.
    If you can read Rachel's story and have any other response then a clear turning away from the sinful system that is the Geftakys Assembly your heart must be sin hardened indeed!!  You should first weep and next become very angry at the web of lies that is the Assembly!
  This site has told many sad stories, but none so clearly declares the Assembly errors as Rachel's.  We have gone on and on trying to persuade those still in the Assembly to consider the teaching of scripture, to examine the Assembly practices, to see the fruit of Assembly abuses here at this site, but Rachel's story makes all of the above more than crystal clear!
   It is time to repent!  This section is called Truth and Grace, but there can be no grace without a facing of the truth.  If there is any Assembly member out there who now knows these things and thinks you can excuse or ignore them you are dishonoring the Lord!
   Am I angry?  Yes!  Do I believe the Lord is angry?  Yes!!!
                               God bless the truly repentant,  Mark

[Sebastian Andrew]

Greetings to all:
 
Once a current assembly member and I were discussing the Assembly. I mentioned some issues, both general and specific, that he couldn't readily refute. In what was to him, at least, an argumentative trump card, he stated that "it hasn't been proven in a court of law." Through this he exempted himself  from the responsibility of critically  thinking and the attendant responsibility-action. Logically speaking, very few things in life NEED(or adapt themselves)to being proven in a court of law. For example, if I see someone steal(lie, cheat), catching them in the act, I now know that this person in all  probability cannot be trusted-they are guilty of theft(lying, cheating). I now have sufficient reason to base an attitude of mistrust and disapproval. It is not for me personally to sentence them, that would be the realm of the courts; but they will suffer the consequences in terms of loss of my trust, friendship, and loyalty. If circumstances warrant I would warn others about them, too. It would be a matter of conscienceto do so, otherwise it would be complicity. Wouldn't we warn a friend not to trust someone(and why not to)that we know to be a thief(liar, cheater) if they were about to enter into a financial dealing, et cetera with this rascal? I trust that we would. Especially if we have observed a pattern of criminal conduct. This friend clearly has a NEED TO KNOW. Gossip, especially the malicious kind, is revealing -even though it may be true- others personal information to those who don't have a need or even the right to know. Gossipers typically do this either to build themselves up at the expense of others, or to discredit the subject of the gossip-or both. Friends, and people of backbone and character reveal things in order to protect the innocent.
   Now, I'm sure that anyone can plug the assembly  into the correct "sockets" in the scenario developed above. Some of the conduct in the assembly-especially in the hierarchy of leadership-has been criminal. Some of their conduct "merely" grossly irresponsible and destructive.There has been spiritual, psycho-emotional, and physical abuse. Present assembly members have already seen enough to make an informed judgement and appropriate response. I will let the reader make his personal application here. Will you continue to support these things through your participation? Will you even invite others thus exposing them to harm? Will you be an accomplice through doing or questioning nothing?
Ask yourselves who is my neighbor and then go and do the right thing.
Respectfully,
Sebastian Andrew

[Mark C.]

Hi Everyone,
  Very well said Sebastian .  Logic does not break through to the Assembly member who is entrapped.  Mind control has been the phrase that is often used to describe those inside groups like the Assembly but I wonder if that is a proper description.  It seems more like emotional control and that it has little to do with logic.  Arguments, Biblical or otherwise, are only used to defend the Assembly members emotional "safe place" inside the group.  Assembly members needs are met by the group and by attacking their group one is attacking their source of emotional nourishment.  Some of the Leaders look to GG and Betty as their parents and through loyalty to them are looking for a loving parent.  Some of these same leaders needs are met by the respect they receive from the other members (there are other emotional entrapment scenarios as well).  
   We all have these emotional needs but in the Assembly  (or a cult) we enter when we are especially vulnerable and are literally bombed with love and acceptance from members.  When we start to question the group that love and acceptance is withdrawn and we begin to see how fickle the group's affection for us is.  
   To be spiritually healthy, as well as emotionally healthy, we must have our emotional life centered on an individual life with God first.  This is accomplished via God's unconditional acceptance of us.  Of course we also need human relationships, but God has designed family life to meet these needs and not the church as a substitute family.  When the church usurps God and the family's place the emotional life is turned upside down and we become dependent on the group.  
   When we question the Assembly teachings to a member who is so emotionally entrenched in the group they will say or do anything to protect their emotional well being.  This they would do not knowing that their spiritual and emotional well being would improve if they were to begin to critically think re. their involvement.
   There are wake up calls that God brings our way and we need to heed the truth and not our own comfort.  It is not easy to face these things but the sooner a member does so the easier it will be to recover and to find a healthy Christian life.
                              God Bless,  Mark

[Arthur]

An encouraging thought was just shared with me and I'd like to share it with you all.  A preacher was talking about the statue in Nebuchadnezzar's dream which Daniel explained.  That statue was destroyed by the stone cut out by no human hand.  
What we have seen in the assembly has happened in other times and places before, but we know that no "kingdom" of man will stand--in fact there will not even be a trace left, but the kingdom of the Lord Jesus will stand forever.




Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth....
And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

[Mrs. Arthur]

Sebastian you hit a number of nails on the head   but Mark's statement that "Logic does not break through to the Assembly member who is entrapped" is all too true.  The statement reminds me of when I worked for a Mormon lawyer a few years back .  This man, like many people in the Lodge, has very deep roots in the Mormon Church.  His entire family is Mormon, his wife's entire family is Mormon, all of his friends are Mormon, most of his employees are Mormon, etc.  

One day we were talking about the Bible and I came to find out that this man was indeed very knowledgeable about the Old and New Testament along with the additional books that the Mormons tack onto the Bible.  We came to discuss being saved by grace.  We went round and round trying to out-do each other with the knowledge that we had obtained and finally it came down to one point.  I said to him, "You know the truth and you have taught the truth, yet you stay (in the Mormon Church), why?"  He looked me dead in the eye and said something to the effect of "Rachel, I can't.  You don't understand  -  I can't."    

Later I discussed the conversation with my brother-in-law (he had become friends with my boss before I was hired).  I asked him why my boss wouldn't leave and my brother-in-law proceeded to have me take a step back and look at the situation.  Here my boss was - a somewhat leader in the church with a wife and 5 kids.  My boss's entire world revolved around the Mormon Church.  If he were to walk away he would perhaps loose his family, his employees, his friends, and quite possibly his law practice (due to the number of clients he received from the church).  Here my boss was - a logical thinker by all means yet even logic could not permeate the hold the Mormon Church had on him.

Many in the assembly may very well be in the same situation; they see the truth but remain paralyzed, unable to flip the switch in their subconscious that would allow them to be free and all the while their entire group of friends, leaders, and family continue to divert their attention away from the switch.  

Some of the people on this BB have been granted the GRACE to flip that switch but there is a flood of pain that came with the TRUTH that set them free.  They may have left family, friends they have had almost a lifetime, and leaders that they thought really loved and cared for them.  For all of you on this BB that have felt that pain I truly sympathize with you.

My sister told me just the other day: "There's always going to be people that hurt you, so what you have to do is keep on trusting and just be more careful about who you trust next time around."  That may sound like the most outlandish statement in the world but there is hope.  Our hope is in God, not in man.  He can help us to trust and live again.  He is the only one we can place ALL trust in and through Him we can learn to be more careful.  Some may say that is easier said than done, true but the Lord's not finished with us yet.  We're still here living out our days and until He decides we are done we can choose either to trust in Him or forsake Him.

My whole Lodge experience doesn't quite make sense to me and the more stories I read on this BB the more I don't understand, but I still am going to choose HIM because I don't see that there is any other way to make it through this life.

[Kimberley Tobin]

Mrs. Arthur:  You have poignantly stated what many are grappling with in making the decision to come out as well, what we grapple with who have since left.

One verse which I laid hold of early in my christian walk (even in my lodge days) has been a great help, "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." Rom 8:28  I am not bitter about my lodge days (15 years of them.)  God had a purpose for it all.  I can't see what the future holds or why God allowed the situation, but my hope is in God, not in my situation.  2Cor 1 comes to mind where it talks about God using our suffering and the comfort we receive from Christ in order to comfort others.  My prayer is that God is able to use all of us who have come out and been delivered from that wicked place to minister to others and I believe this BB has been one such vehicle in order to facillitate this.

Thank you for your contribution to the BB.  Keep posting.

[Mark C.]

Hi Everyone,
  This is a wonderful and very insightful conversation.  The Biblical story I think fits well with this topic is the one about Joseph and his Brethren.  It actually fits better in the thread re. Wounded Pilgrims as Joe. is an example of same.
  The story follows an interesting parallel to those mistreated in the Assembly.  Not only does God bless Joe. in the end he brings the sinful Brethren to repentance.
  "And as for you, you meant evil aginst me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many peopoe alive--- So he comforted them and spoke kindly to them" Gen. 50:20-21.
   The key to the repentance of the Brethren and restoration of fellowship with Joe. was the leadership of Judah in the whole matter.
   If you read the story we find Joe. playing this "game" with his Brethren as he tries to bring them to a true turning of heart.  I believe just such a "game" is now being played out in the heart's of those considering how to deal with the present crisis in Fullerton.  
   A very intersting part of this Joe. story is the chapter that is inserted in the middle of it that seems out of place and that is the one re. Judah's sin, hypocrisy, exposure, confession, and repentance-(Gen.38).  This event prepared Judah for a full repentance of even deeper evil and his ability to take the lead for his other weak brethren.
    I don't think it is stretching things to see an analogy here.  Apparently the Dave G. event has awakened several Judah's to their own hypocrisy and sin in the Assembly.  Their view is still very limited and they don't see the great abuses and damages inherent in the Assembly system.  They still need to understand that they have sold many of their Brethren into slavery; how does God bring the further deeper repentance for these acts?
   I believe these Bros. who have not silenced their conscience will find that it becomes the silver cup in the bag of grain! (Am I getting too mystical yet?)  In other words, once the conscience is awakened by the Holy Spirit we can not depart from the truth as the Spirit will continue to "police" us and won't let us go.  Wasn't that the way it worked with most of us?  Over the years our conscience would be pricked and as we responded to it the truth became clearer to see.  
   Some in the Assembly have not come to the place of Judah yet and are still hiding their hypocrital life style; dishonest with self as well as with God.  Yet, there seem to be some Judah's emerging and possibly this website plays a part as well in the Spirit's work.  Joseph is clearly a type of Our Great Wounded Pilgrim, Jesus Christ, and we as little wounded pilgrims maybe are the servants in Joe's house. (Alright, maybe I'm getting a little carried away with this analogy, but I think there are some interesting parallel's and they bring me some encouragement for what God can do through this whole situation.  I will refrain from designating an analogy as to who the asses bearing the grain represent )
                   God Bless those that hope in God,  Mark C.

[Arthur]

You know, Mark, I was going to respond and say that when being mistreated by my brethren, it sure didn't seem that I was doing anything so noble as Joseph, so that was hardly comforting.  But then I thought, hey wait a minute.  Joseph didn't know that it would turn out for good until years later.  When he was in the dungeon, how easy it could have been to give up and say there is no hope.  So, perhaps in due time we will all see how this will all be used for good as it was for Joseph.  Wow, that would be great!

[Corey]

"as it was for Joseph"

I agree!!!

It would be great.  and you know what, I believe it can happen.
If only we had spiritual eys to see

I got a taste of heaven today, and I think we will be in wonder at His goodness saying, "of a truth, God has done this."

Corey

[Joe Denner]

I was doing a study this weekend on the grace of God, and it was very encouraging and liberating.

I need to admit here at the beginning of this post two things.  First, I have not followed all of the thoughts of this thread completely, so please forgive me if this comes out of left field, but the title caught my eye.  Second, and more importantly, I am terribly aware of how much more I need to learn about God's grace.  But, here it goes.

I came across this definition of grace in the Online Bible program - "the merciful kindness by which God, exerting His Holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues."  This really blessed me (and made me think about Ti. 2:11-12).  It took the idea of grace from being just some theological concept to one of God's ACTIVITY in my life.  It isn't just a dispostion or attitude God has, but rather it is His going out to me, actively, to change me and conform me to the image of Christ.  And, man do I see that I don't deserve that, nor have I done anything to prompt it.  It is initiated in the heart of God Himself.  That really gave new meaning to me to Ro. 6:14 - we are no longer under a standard that demands but cannot supply, but are rather now living under God's influence upon our souls.

The other thing this impressed upon me was that we are to be ministers of the manifold grace of God (1Pe. 4).  This does not mean that we are to exert our influence upon others souls (setting up our own standards and expectations of what someone should or shouldn't do or be), but rather to be a vehicle for Him to exert His influence upon their souls.

As I stated before, I know I still have a lot to learn, but this was an exciting beginning for me.  And, I am interested in what any of you may think about what I am saying - offering any corrections, or additional thoughts.

Joe

[psalm51]

Hi Joe,
I have been reading books by Philip Yancey.  If you have never read anything by him I would recommend his writings to you. His book "What I Never Knew About Grace" is very encouraging. I read it about 4 years ago and it helped me very much. I recently finished his book "Soul Survivor", which has been especially helpful also. I enjoy his thoughtful insights about the Christian life.
Love to Andrea.
Pat