Re:Guided by God

[editor]

Hints of both of these errors seem to have crept into a recent post by one of our regulars.  Hopefully he will be more careful in the future.

This is pretty serious, Steve.

Can you please be far more specific?  I certainly would appreciate having this error exposed if it is me you are talking about.  (I don't think it is me, but I assume the regular poster you refer to would also appreciate your input.)

Brent

[Joe Sperling]

Stephen----

I agree with Brent. If I am the one you are referring to regarding errors, I would like to know so that I can learn from it, and be corrected by it. Perhaps you could be more specific concerning the errors you are referring to.

I do appreciate your post below. In the first paragraph of your post you mention the Word of God and Creation and I was reminded of Hugh Ross, who states that the Bible and Science are fully reconcilable. They are both perfect--and God is fully shown to exist by both Science and the Bible. "The invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse".(Rom 1:20).

Thanks for your posts Stephen.

--Joe

[vernecarty]

 Verne seems to think that only the obvious and the mystical exist.

I do? I did not know that!
Is this the same as the knowable and the inscrutable?
I may have to change my epistimological pardigm...


 

It's not that way in science, nor in God's Word.  There are things that are mysterious simply because they are beyond our present understanding.  Things become clearer with much careful and detailed study, but, as in science, so with God's Word, you aren't going to understand it all.

I agree.

Some things are obvious - Christ died for sins

Some things take a bit of digging - Seeing the Pentateuch in the Book of Psalms.

Some things are unkowable (apart from special revelation), or until prophecy becomes fulfilled- Who is the Antichrist.

I've noticed that it seems to be more common lately for Christians to be having troubles.  I'm of the opinion that this is because there is a form of covert persecution going on: that these troubles are designed by people who hate Christianity, but don't want Christians to know that they are actually being persecuted.  I believe that this extends even to the point of infiltrating fake Christians into churches and even into leadership positions in churches to promote either worldly philosophies that effectively replace God with self, or else harsh legalistic teachings that promote loyalty to the church leadership hierarchy rather than to God thereby hurting those who are true Christians.

When I see how some men in places of spiritual responsibility behave, I consider this a distinct possibility
It is diificult to understand how an unbeliever could rise to prominence in a gathering of Christian men and women but it can and does happen.

Hints of both of these errors seem to have crept into a recent post by one of our regulars.  Hopefully he will be more careful in the future.

Imposters and legalism. Are these the errors?
Who might the poster be that requires more carefulness pray tell.
I for one think greater carefulness is always in order when it come to spiritual matters.  

As for this expression: "Christ-like", what an amazingly subtle twist!  The serpent in the garden spoke of being "God-like".  The problem with both of these is that they refer to likeness, in other words, superficial appearance.  So Pharisaical ideas are very old, originating with the very origin of man's sin itself.

Genesis 3:4-5
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

The whole idea of the "Christ-like" teaching is to set up a hierarchy and a code of silence.  I suspect that this teaching may have brought about the harshest times in the assembly.

I must say that I disagree. Christ-likeness is the entire reason for our redemption.
The danger comes in letting others, as oppposed to God's Word, define exactly what that is. One of my very favorite passages in the Bible is 2 Corinthians 3:18

 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.  

Verne

[sfortescue]

Hints of both of these errors seem to have crept into a recent post by one of our regulars.  Hopefully he will be more careful in the future.

This is pretty serious, Steve.

Can you please be far more specific?  I certainly would appreciate having this error exposed if it is me you are talking about.  (I don't think it is me, but I assume the regular poster you refer to would also appreciate your input.)

Brent

The response to your request is in the Wounded Pilgrims thread where the
three relevant posts were made 2 or 3 days ago.  I was working from memory and falsely described what was said as being all in one post.  I'm sorry that I wasn't able to respond to those posts in a timely manner.

In response to Verne, I must say that the "Christ-like" teaching is very deceptive.  From seeing the adverse effects that it has on churches, it is evident that there is something wrong with it.

[vernecarty]

In response to Verne, I must say that the "Christ-like" teaching is very deceptive.  From seeing the adverse effects that it has on churches, it is evident that there is something wrong with it.

I am  going to jump to a conclusion and assume that the false representatives of "Christ-likeness" that come to your mind are people like David Koresh, Jim Jones, even George Geftakys?
I take it that the adverse effects you refer to are those resulting form the cult of personality infecting so many gatherings of God's people today right?

Why should we let them set the standard?

I don't know about the rest of you folk on the BB, but I have met some men and women over the years in whom the familial resemblance of the Lord Jesus was strong indeed.

If you do not understand that it is the godly example of saints in whose life God has worked to conform to the image of His dear Son, that is indeed one the most wonderful benefits of being in fellowship then you have missed the boat in my view.

This is exactly what made the assemblies in many respects such a perversion.

What went on there was anti-thetical to that of which we speak!

How many of you are prepared to forever let your assembly experience determine your standards and circumscribe your expectations?

I can still remeber seeing J Vernon McGee in the last year of his life preaching the gospel message in Champaign at Strattford Park Bible Chapel.
At 86 his face was radiant!
I distinctly remember thinking

"I want to end like him!"

It is the responsibility of those of us who name the Name of Christ to so exemplify his grace and beauty, that the familial resemblance to our Savior is evident to all.
That I should have to make this case at all is quite telling is it not?
Verne

p.s Why don't a few of us define what we mean by Christ-likeness? I would like the privelege of beginning.
A Christ-like quality?  HUMILITY

Do we look for this quality in spiritual leaders?
Does anybody think Geftakys and his hirelings were humble men? What thinkest ye?

In this regard I know myself to be most unlike my redeemer. May His transfroming work prevail...

[sfortescue]

There is nothing wrong with the term "burden of the Lord" either, yet God told his people through Jeremiah that he didn't want them using the term because its meaning in the popular vernacular of the time had become distorted.

You used the term and Al immediately associated it with a specific form of teaching which is faulty.  Confusion is caused by using a term that many people identify as meaning something different from what you mean by the term.  That is my point.  All you need to do is alter the wording only a little bit so that it doesn't automatically associate in people's minds with the faulty teaching.

Also it is wrong headed to focus on appearances rather than heart realities.  The term "Christ-like" suggests appearances.  Our focus shouldn't be on what we look like, but rather what God wants to make of us, no matter what that might look like.  What do we care what people think of us, as long as we're abiding in him.  Focus on appearances is what hypocrisy is all about!

[vernecarty]

There is nothing wrong with the term "burden of the Lord" either, yet God told his people through Jeremiah that he didn't want them using the term because its meaning in the popular vernacular of the time had become distorted.

You used the term and Al immediately associated it with a specific form of teaching which is faulty.  Confusion is caused by using a term that many people identify as meaning something different from what you mean by the term.  That is my point.  All you need to do is alter the wording only a little bit so that it doesn't automatically associate in people's minds with the faulty teaching.

Also it is wrong headed to focus on appearances rather than heart realities.  The term "Christ-like" suggests appearances.  Our focus shouldn't be on what we look like, but rather what God wants to make of us, no matter what that might look like.  What do we care what people think of us, as long as we're abiding in him.  Focus on appearances is what hypocrisy is all about!

Steve my good friend, you are really confusing me here.
I have never conceded that Al or anyone else on this BB speaks for Verne Carty.
Are we to make no judgments about the state of someone's inner life based on what we observe?
I would argue that it was exactly the failure to take note of the conduct of assembly leadership that was our deepest failure.
Let us take your position to an extreme.
Here is a pastor who is frequently drunk. Who has several illegitmate children.
Who is known to beat his wife etc. etc. Using your reasoning, a case could be made for keeping this man in ministry. After all, it is wrong to focus on mere appearances right? Although a man may  display all sorts of the most vile and vulgar behaviour, we really ought not to concern ourselves with such appearances
I know it sounds totally ridiculous.

Guess what? That has indeed been done!

Your apparent belief that there is any real dichotomy between the condition of a man's heart and his outward conduct is gravely mistaken. That is never true for anyone with any spiritual discernment and that is the truth...

We had better pay close attention to appearances if we know what's good for us in my opinon. Our inattention in the assemblies was the undoing of too many of us.

Verne

Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.  Hebrews 13:7

p.s. I trust that you in no way (although you used that expression) concluded that when I talk about Christ-likeness that I am talking about what people "look like" ??!!

[vernecarty]

   We are not greater than those who have gone before us, that we should not suffer as they did.  The beatings, the imprisonments, were in order that God might be glorified, Christ exalted, and the gospel spread.  Instead of whimpering and licking our wounds, we should be found singing praises to God at midnight, so that He might shake the earth and free us, and thereby be discovered to the unbelievers around us.  We cannot make these things happen, but we can pray that they will happen, and learn to let them happen!

 
 O.K... I finally got you Steve. I went back and took a closer look at that above quote Al posted.

Here is my question:

WHAT ON EARTH DOES WHAT AL POSTED HAVE TO DO WITH CHRIST-LIKENESS??

Particularly in the context of people who have suffered abuse at the hands of unfaithful men. If Al is in any way suggesting that this is acceptable and defensible ( which I doubt he is) he has a serious problem.
It seems to be he is simply saying that all who would live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution; and that is certainly true!
I would never have guessed considering the way I post and the things I say that anyone would have mistaken me for a masochist!  
Verne

[Oscar]

Jem,

You said:

  ...I'm not trying to be belligerent here. In fact, if you could use an analogy from your own life--beyond the rediculous of teeth brushing or shoe purchases--it'd be helpful. I know your experience does not a doctrine make, but did you ever think something was God's will for you that you didn't have chapter and verse for?

I experimented with this idea earlier in my Christian life.  I was not impressed with the outcome.

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux

Back in 1967, Cathy & I invited Tom and his wife to our wedding.  Presumably, God did not "tell" Tom to attend, and he did not show up.  As far as I'm concerned, Tom still owes me a toaster!

al  

Al,

You know how it is.    We're late!  

BTW, what was the date of your wedding?  I had some pretty heavy things going in 1967, and I was out of state for a while.

I don't remember anything about your wedding...so you are probably correct about my not attending.

As to why...now you've got me wondering about it.

Thomas Maddux

[Oscar]

Hi folks,

Caryl and I just returned from a weekend in San Diego.  We honeymooned there 40 years ago, and we have returned in January for most of the years since then.  We had a good time of rest, fellowship, and recreation.

I have just read through the messages posted in the past few days.  Too many to respond to one by one.  But, a few comments.

1. Steve F. thinks that I am "extreme" in my view on guidance.   Maybe I am...but extreme only has meaning in a frame of reference.  Otherwise it is merely a way of saying, "I don't like what you said."  

I am curious about what "extreme" means in this case.  BTW, what would "moderate" look like?

2. Brent has boldly declared that he believes the Holy Spirit can speak directly to men.  I guess he is "exreme" too.  I say that because I believe exactly the same thing.

I believe that If God so chose, he could send the angels to flap their wings in the clouds and form them into letters to send us messages.  For that matter, he could simply create "alphabet clouds".  

The real question is not "Could God do this?", but rather, DOES God do this? or at least do it so often that I should be looking or listening for it.  In addition, how will I know when I have had this experience?

3. A burden from the Lord?  How do I recognize a burden from the Lord?  Many seem to think that if Jeremiah or someone had a burden from the Lord, what they feel or have felt is the same thing.  How does one tell?

I have been asking these questions for years.  I have asked them of many people, of many different theological inclinations.   No one has ever had any kind of a clear answer for me.  

Many have claimed these experiences.  A few years back a lady confidently told me..."God told me to buy all new furniture."   I asked her how she knew that.  "Oh, I'm sure God told me that."

End of discussion.  I cannot prove that God indeed DID NOT tell her to buy all new furniture.     Nevertheless, I remain unconvinced.

The reason is that when I read in the Bible of God speaking...he seems to have more important things than interior decorating on his mind!

IMHO, on the subject of Divine Guidance there is a whole lot of heat, and very little light.

Thomas Maddux

[al Hartman]

Back in 1967, Cathy & I invited Tom and his wife to our wedding.  Presumably, God did not "tell" Tom to attend, and he did not show up.  As far as I'm concerned, Tom still owes me a toaster!

al    

Al,

You know how it is.    We're late!  

BTW, what was the date of your wedding?  I had some pretty heavy things going in 1967, and I was out of state for a while.

I don't remember anything about your wedding...so you are probably correct about my not attending.

As to why...now you've got me wondering about it.

Thomas Maddux

Tom,

Oh yeah, I remember!  Back in those days you were always late.  When we used to make the pilgrimage to Fullerton once or twice a week you were never on time, usually arriving only minutes before the Hartmans

Anyhow, wonder no more-- I was just yanking your chain

Cathy & I were married in November, only a month or two after meeting you & Caryl (you later told me that you didn't attend because we scarcely knew each other).  I giddily invited everyone I had ever met-- might have even sent out a few invitations to "Occupant."

Everything's cool, Bro-- you can return the toaster .  Besides, they make electric ones now...

al

[M2]

...
Your apparent belief that there is any real dichotomy between the condition of a man's heart and his outward conduct is gravely mistaken. That is never true for anyone with any spiritual discernment and that is the truth...

We had better pay close attention to appearances if we know what's good for us in my opinon. Our inattention in the assemblies was the undoing of too many of us.

Verne

Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.  Hebrews 13:7

We did pay close attention to appearances.  However, lacking the needed spiritual discernment, we concluded that all churches have problems, but, since we were superior to other churches, where else could we go.

One of the leaders here in Ottawa often preached from Hebrews 13:7 to convince us from the Scriptures that we ought to obey the leaders, fallible or not, because we should trust God for the leaders.

...
How many of you are prepared to forever let your assembly experience determine your standards and circumscribe your expectations?
...

NONE of us are Verne.  We are all getting on with our lives, but some/all/none have not arrived at the point that you believe we should be at.

Al, Stephen makes a good point re. usage of terminology, don't you think?

Jeremiah 23:36
And the burden of the LORD shall ye mention no more: for every man's word shall be his burden; for ye have perverted the words of the living God, of the LORD of hosts our God.

Because of abuse of the term, the Lord told the people of Judah not to say "burden of the Lord" anymore.  I would suggest that we should avoid in like manner the term "Christ-likeness" because of its use in a common false teaching.

Here Al is expanding on the "Christ-like" teaching that Verne seemed to have mentioned.  I think I remember going through this teaching in the assembly Bible study on the CSUN campus.  The thing that impressed me at the time was that, after a small amount of shallow teaching, the material went on to discuss discipleship, except that this was really only a pyramid marketing scheme for quicky propogating what was taught.  The net effect was to quickly promote those who were young and immature to leadership positions.  I quickly forgot the material at the time as being unimportant.  One key teaching involves using the Philippian jail story as a model for Christians quietly bearing injustice.  The problem with that teaching is clearly illustrated by what happened in the assembly: the code of silence.  My opinion is that this teaching was carefully crafted and developed for the purpose of concealing evil.  The recent surge in popularity of this teaching is suggestive that there is in churches and in society a corresponding surge of evil wanting concealment.

Recently I wrote a pastor about a message on gossip I had heard, that triggered in me that reaction to concealment.  If the leaders' behavior is above reproach, then I would not have anything to gossip about eh??

Many of Mark Campbell's posts are outstanding.  The many hours that he has spent researching the subject must have something to do with it, as well as his heart for God's people.

Amen to this!

Marcia

[vernecarty]

When Steve objects to equating Christ-likeness with a willingness (I think) to uquestioningly accept abuse at the hands of the unholy and acquiesce silently to ungodly conduct I think he does have a point.
I have noticed with great interest how the radical homosexual left has very effectively muzzled so many Christians by their frequent invocation of the diatribe of "hate" and "homophobia". They have been so effective in the employment of this tactic, that you now have so-called Christians actually supporting and defending homosexual marriages.
They are desperately afraid of being accused of being "hateful" or "intolerant".
It is therefore no surprise to see some people masqueradfing as Christians( clearly not born again) using the exact same technique to try and stifle criticsim of unholy behaviour.
The reason it is no surprise is that firstly all these folk are energized by the same unholy source, and secondly that it has so often been quite effective.

Remember the mantra in the assemblies:

"Don't speak against the Lord's servant"?

We even had a would-be wiccan on the BB sometime back, who in the midst of the melt-down of George's unholy empire was assuring us that he was "The Lord's servant."

Where do you see that in the Bible?

Fortunately  for Peter (and you and me), Paul was not about to indulge his godless bigoted hypocrisy.
It was a remarkably effective tool for cowing countless numbers of folk into timid silence, whose consciences should have impelled them to loudly condemn some of the things that were going on.
It is kind of amusing that some of the detritus of assembly days still presume to think that this kind of silliness would influence anyone in this post-assembly era.
While God tells us to love our enemies (and this has absolutely nothing to do with how we feel about them), I continue to be amazed at how gullible so many Christians are. The Bible teaches us that we know we have passed from death to life because we love the brethren.
When someone comes around, permeating the atmosphere with the most noxious spiritual stench imaginable, and there is a natural revulsion of the heart and mind to what is being promulgated, why is that so many of us, otherwise reasonably intlligent folk, concede that these people are brethren?? Satan is no fool.
In this respect I completely agree with Steve's objections and wanted to make that point clear.
God is not only a God of love. HE IS HOLY!
Verne
p.s I do have a bit of a problem with the wholesale discarding of terms just because others have mis-applied and abused them. I am not about to give up the word Christ-likeness. I am always prepared to define exatly what I mean by my own use of it.

As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness Psalm 17:15

Why don't we let the Word of God define our terms?

[outdeep]

I remember when we first moved to North Carolina some friends fell into trouble and we suggested they come out and live with us and get a new start.  It was nice having them for a few months, but in retrospect, it probably would have been better for them to resolve the problem on their own instead of jumping on the first thing that came along.

When they arrived the first day, I asked the wife how she is doing.  She said hesitantly, “Well, were just seeking the Lord to know His will.”

I thought, isn’t that something you should have done BEFORE you came out?  What I figured out later was that she didn’t have a good feeling about moving to North Carolina – it was a bit premature and they were rebounding from a bad situation – but her excited husband overruled.  She was expressing her unease and feelings of insecurity about the decision using “God talk”.

Because the wife really didn’t want to come out, she would subconsciously do things to make sure things wouldn’t work.  I remember her being at a church fellowship with us and she would situate herself by herself at a table with a mean “don’t talk to me” look on her face.  Afterwards, she would complain about how unfriendly everyone was and say, “Maybe all Southerners are unfriendly and are prejudice against outsiders.”

Over time, they found that it was difficult to get work with any promise in the area and there was much that they didn’t like – low wage job, the prospect of winter, acclimating to a different culture, living with the Sables isn’t as easy as they thought, long distance from major city etc.

Finally, they decided to leave.  The wife came to me and said that she had been reading in the Bible and God has spoken to her.

“God said to Moses, gooooooooo”, she said emphasizing the word “go”.

I didn’t quite get it.  “So?” I asked.

“God said to Moses, gooooooooo”, she emphasized until I figured out that she was saying that God was telling them to go, too.  Whatever the passage might mean to Moses in a literal, historic sense, God was lifting the verse out and applying it to their heart as a way of saying, “move to Oregon.”

Their circumstances can be interpreted in two ways, take your pick:

Interpretation 1:  Our friends hit a difficult situation.  When Dave offered them some help, they jumped on it, not really thinking it through.  When they arrived, they realized that the area does not have a favorable job market.  In rethinking the situation and considering their future, they moved near some friends in Oregon that had a more diverse job market.  As a result, they both got good jobs and were eventually able to buy a house.

Interpretation 2:  The devil brought persecution into their lives.  God used the circumstances to make them “pilgrims and strangers” going forth depending completely upon God.  “Just trust me”, God was saying to them.  After three months of the Lord’s purging, God spoke to them through a passage of Scripture saying, “Go and I will take care of all your needs.”  They stepped out in faith and moved to Oregon where God supplied their every need and blessed them.

I think much of the subjective “God talk” is based on how someone wants to interpret their circumstances.  In a house church, we attend, we worship as the “the Spirit leads” which means there is no formal ending time and we stop when finish the song sheet, get tired and want to eat.  I sometimes am “led” to lead out in a song which could mean that God put a song on my heart or it could mean that someone’s prayer reminded me of a song I happen to like and wanted to sing.  (In the Assembly, I used to struggle over whether my prayer or song was “of God” or not – of course, getting corrected in worship was one of the highest humiliations)

Most subjective “God talk” I found is in reference to things that don’t matter much (who cares if I lead out in a song or not?) or things that people are probably going to do anyway if we reason it out (“God told me to take this lower paying job to be closer to home.”)   If your physician were to tell you that God spoke to him that you should stop taking your blood pressure medicine and turn off your pacemaker, you probably would get a second opinion.

Subjective "God talk" only becomes a problem is when we begin to bind other people - expecially the weak - with it ("No, you can't pursue an advanced degree because God says you are a child of Zion to build his mountain of testimony and thus he needs you at the meetings of the week") or if it makes us completely unable to think though a circumstance objectively ("I know my boss is abusing me, but God says he want me be here.")

It would be silly to say that God never speaks to people.  However, God can also instantly heal and he can cause someone to break out in a foreign language he doesn’t know in order to preach the gospel to another people group.  It just has been my observation that these things have been more the exception than the rule.

[Jem]

Interpretation 1:  Our friends hit a difficult situation.  When Dave offered them some help, they jumped on it, not really thinking it through.  When they arrived, they realized that the area does not have a favorable job market.  In rethinking the situation and considering their future, they moved near some friends in Oregon that had a more diverse job market.  As a result, they both got good jobs and were eventually able to buy a house.

Interpretation 2:  The devil brought persecution into their lives.  God used the circumstances to make them “pilgrims and strangers” going forth depending completely upon God.  “Just trust me”, God was saying to them.  After three months of the Lord’s purging, God spoke to them through a passage of Scripture saying, “Go and I will take care of all your needs.”  They stepped out in faith and moved to Oregon where God supplied their every need and blessed them.

So what I understand some people are saying is that God can intervene in our lives supernaturally, but he does it so rarely that we shouldn't particularly look for it, expect it, or believe for it. And that would seem that our relationship with God and Christ is not really "a personal relationship with Jesus" in that He doesn't really communicate and/or help us on a daily basis similar to the way our closest friends and family do.

We can interpret prayer and its answers very much like Dave's interpretation #1 and #2. We can pray "Give us this day our daily bread," but that is really just God talk because we go to our jobs anyway and so God doesn't really answer that He just wants us to pray it occasionally to remind us to get out the door and go to the job.

Am I getting this?