Being An Assembly Kid

[outdeep]

Great article on ga.com.  

I remember observing an AK in the early 1980's.  His life was pretty close to what Scott describes.  

I remember that he wanted to play high school football, but was denied.  When he graduated from high school, he then had to decide what to do with his life.  He seemed completely incapable of making any kind of decision.  He referred to himself (jokingly, but somewhat truthfully) as a "lost youth".  On impulse, he joined the military and had some real problems - eventually getting out early due to psycological reasons.

The good news is that, thanks to loving support from his grandparents and parents (who had left the Assembly about that time) this person grew up and is doing very well and has an established life and business.

However, watching this had a great impact upon me.  I remember thinking at the time "if they let him make 'safe' choices when he was young - such as whether to join the football team or not - he might not have been so incapable of making a decision when he was 18."

This lesson went a long ways on how I raised my children.  I admit, I may have errored too far the other way in letting them make decisions too soon in some areas and I have had my share of problems.  But, the one problem I definately don't have is my son's ability to make a decision.  At 17, he is head and shoulders above many of his peers in being independent and pursuing some life goals.

--------------------
P.S.:  In fairness, there have been exceptions to the rule concerning AK kids.  In later years, I remember AK kinds being on the basketball and swimming team at the local high school.  But, in many instances (and certainly his own) Scott's words are true.

[vernecarty]

Great article on ga.com.  

I
However, watching this had a great impact upon me.  I remember thinking at the time "if they let him make 'safe' choices when he was young - such as whether to join the football team or not - he might not have been so incapable of making a decision when he was 18."

This lesson went a long ways on how I raised my children.  I admit, I may have errored too far the other way in letting them make decisions too soon in some areas and I have had my share of problems.  But, the one problem I definately don't have is my son's ability to make a decision.  At 17, he is head and shoulders above many of his peers in being independent and pursuing some life goals.

I took my daughter to meet the person I am hoping she would choose as her martial arts instructor. He is also fith dan and has a great way with kids.
The problem is that Christina prefers a "soft" style, like jui jitsu and wants to visit a few more dojos.
she is only five!
Who gets the call?  
Verne

[outdeep]

I took my daughter to meet the person I am hoping she would choose as her martial arts instructor. He is also fith dan and has a great way with kids.
The problem is that Christina prefers a "soft" style, like jui jitsu and wants to visit a few more dojos.
she is only five!
Who gets the call?  
Verne

How good is your daughter?  Can she take you out?  Remember, never make a rule you can't enforce.

[Oscar]

Verne,

You said:

I took my daughter to meet the person I am hoping she would choose as her martial arts instructor. He is also fith dan and has a great way with kids.
The problem is that Christina prefers a "soft" style, like jui jitsu and wants to visit a few more dojos.
she is only five!
Who gets the call?  
Verne

Are you joking?

Thomas Maddux

[vernecarty]

Verne,

You said:

I took my daughter to meet the person I am hoping she would choose as her martial arts instructor. He is also fith dan and has a great way with kids.
The problem is that Christina prefers a "soft" style, like jui jitsu and wants to visit a few more dojos.
she is only five!
Who gets the call?  
Verne

Are you joking?

Thomas Maddux

Hyuk! Hyuk!
But seriously, I want her to at least feel she has some say in who her sensei is. I am not about to leave her in the hands of someone I don't know. Goes without saying bud...

I took my daughter to meet the person I am hoping she would choose as her martial arts instructor. He is also fith dan and has a great way with kids.
The problem is that Christina prefers a "soft" style, like jui jitsu and wants to visit a few more dojos.
she is only five!
Who gets the call?  
Verne

How good is your daughter?  Can she take you out?  Remember, never make a rule you can't enforce.

Academy rules:
Not on your parents
Not on your siblings
Not on your teachers
Not on the playground
Only on the mat.
Only when you are threatened.

Sounds pretty good to me...


Verne

[al Hartman]

Great article on ga.com.  

I remember observing an AK in the early 1980's.  His life was pretty close to what Scott describes.  

I remember that he wanted to play high school football, but was denied.  When he graduated from high school, he then had to decide what to do with his life.  He seemed completely incapable of making any kind of decision.  He referred to himself (jokingly, but somewhat truthfully) as a "lost youth".  On impulse, he joined the military and had some real problems - eventually getting out early due to psycological reasons.

The good news is that, thanks to loving support from his grandparents and parents (who had left the Assembly about that time) this person grew up and is doing very well and has an established life and business.

However, watching this had a great impact upon me.  I remember thinking at the time "if they let him make 'safe' choices when he was young - such as whether to join the football team or not - he might not have been so incapable of making a decision when he was 18."

This lesson went a long ways on how I raised my children.  I admit, I may have errored too far the other way in letting them make decisions too soon in some areas and I have had my share of problems.  But, the one problem I definately don't have is my son's ability to make a decision.  At 17, he is head and shoulders above many of his peers in being independent and pursuing some life goals.

--------------------
P.S.:  In fairness, there have been exceptions to the rule concerning AK kids.  In later years, I remember AK kinds being on the basketball and swimming team at the local high school.  But, in many instances (and certainly his own) Scott's words are true.

In his article @  [/color]]http://geftakysassembly.com/Articles/PersonalAccounts/AssemblyKid.htm, Scott said:

Outside friendships were denied because other children might contaminate an AK with worldly views or tempt them to carnal activities.

This statement struck an odd chord with me because things were so different in the early days of the Fullerton assembly.  I remember George telling us that our children should attend public schools because they would be a testimony there to the world as to what God was doing in our midst.  I think he was always oblivious to the fact that his own boys had been anything but a testimony for God during their school years.

When I left in 1980, the oldest kids in the assy were Lee Irons, who was in 5th or 6th grade, Grace Maddux, 5th grade, and our oldest daughter Hannah, 4th grade.  All were reasonably well behaved according to assy guidelines of the day.

Imagine my surprise upon coming to this board a couple of years ago and discovering that the assy had its own school and there were discipline issues re: AKs!  At some point after our departure the utopian society of the one true church had begun (and continued) to crumble.  Instead of spreading God's influence throughout the public school systems, AKs had been infected by the world.  George's dream of heaven on earth had become a nightmare.

When we left, George & Betty had had us lined up and reined in like Santa's deer team.  When I was next aware of assy conditions, some twenty-odd years later, the two of them seemed more like a pair of dog walkers trying to control a pack of pooches in a park full of playful squirrels-- leashes going in every direction.  In my mind, I could still hear George reciting, "Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive."  No one can claim he was wrong about that!

al

[glossyibis]

Dear Verne,
  I suggest Brazillian jui jitzu. It is the best of all the self defence disciplines.   steve

[vernecarty]

Dear Verne,
  I suggest Brazillian jui jitzu. It is the best of all the self defence disciplines.   steve

A very practical system. If only I could get my daughters under the tutelage of the Gracie brothers huh?
Wesley Snipes is said to be quite good at it...
I still want to get down your way with a van load of goods for the kids.
The last year has been hectic but I am praying for you Steve.
Are you going over this year?
Paul and I are thinking about the Philippines this Summer...
Verne

[outdeep]

This statement struck an odd chord with me because things were so different in the early days of the Fullerton assembly.  I remember George telling us that our children should attend public schools because they would be a testimony there to the world as to what God was doing in our midst.  I think he was always oblivious to the fact that his own boys had been anything but a testimony for God during their school years.

When I left in 1980, the oldest kids in the assy were Lee Irons, who was in 5th or 6th grade, Grace Maddux, 5th grade, and our oldest daughter Hannah, 4th grade.  All were reasonably well behaved according to assy guidelines of the day.

Imagine my surprise upon coming to this board a couple of years ago and discovering that the assy had its own school and there were discipline issues re: AKs!  At some point after our departure the utopian society of the one true church had begun (and continued) to crumble.  Instead of spreading God's influence throughout the public school systems, AKs had been infected by the world.  George's dream of heaven on earth had become a nightmare.

When we left, George & Betty had had us lined up and reined in like Santa's deer team.  When I was next aware of assy conditions, some twenty-odd years later, the two of them seemed more like a pair of dog walkers trying to control a pack of pooches in a park full of playful squirrels-- leashes going in every direction.  In my mind, I could still hear George reciting, "Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive."  No one can claim he was wrong about that!

al

Of what I understand, the change came when God gave George a vision for a Christian elementary school called Cornerstone.  This vision coincidentally came when his granddaughters became school age.

[M2]

Of what I understand, the change came when God gave George a vision for a Christian elementary school called Cornerstone.  This vision coincidentally came when his granddaughters became school age.

P.S.:  In fairness, there have been exceptions to the rule concerning AK kids.  In later years, I remember AK kinds being on the basketball and swimming team at the local high school.

And this vision coincided with the chief-LBs' kids reaching high school.

Marcia

[vernecarty]

Of what I understand, the change came when God gave George a vision for a Christian elementary school called Cornerstone.  This vision coincidentally came when his granddaughters became school age.

P.S.:  In fairness, there have been exceptions to the rule concerning AK kids.  In later years, I remember AK kinds being on the basketball and swimming team at the local high school.

And this vision coincided with the chief-LBs' kids reaching high school.

Marcia

I am curious. Apparently George on many occcasions would made predictions to the workers and tell them about all the secrets that God hd let him in on.
Did any of the workers ever ask George if he knew what the penalty was for falsely prohesying?  
Verne

[outdeep]

Of what I understand, the change came when God gave George a vision for a Christian elementary school called Cornerstone.  This vision coincidentally came when his granddaughters became school age.

P.S.:  In fairness, there have been exceptions to the rule concerning AK kids.  In later years, I remember AK kinds being on the basketball and swimming team at the local high school.

And this vision coincided with the chief-LBs' kids reaching high school.

Marcia

I am curious. Apparently George on many occcasions would made predictions to the workers and tell them about all the secrets that God hd let him in on.
Did any of the workers ever ask George if he knew what the penalty was for falsely prohesying?  
Verne

I am not sure this is a case of false prophesy.  It seems to me that whatever blessing George prophecied, it came upon him and his family speedily.

[M2]

www.soaringwiththeeagles.com/yabbse/index.php?board=11;action=display;threadid=166;start=msg1271

Scott’s account is indeed an unfortunate story.

I have two comments to make in response. The first is that it is obvious not all assemblies were the same. Maybe they worshipped in the same format, had chapter summary, prayer meeting etc. in similar form but the spirit was different. There is no question that the meetings were frequent and long. It was very demanding upon our time and difficult to get it all in. It required extreme organization in the home, very much like Scott portrayed. That was way too much for children and adults. The difference, from our home at least, is that my children did play sports. They were in music. They had many unsaved friends. So many that our back yard was often full of them, playing kids stuff and then camping out for the night. My boys played cowboys and had toy guns which some in the assembly as well as outside the assembly didn’t like. Breeds violence. Maybe, but I let boys be boys. I’ll trust God for that. Now speaking from a parent’s point, I had hoped my children would influence their friends. I would much rather have their friends at our house than my children going to theirs. There was a reciprocating influence, so to speak, where my children affected their friends but their friends also affected them. In areas that I thought were inappropriate I talked with my kids and used it as an opportunity to teach and train. Some of their friends did become Christians, many didn’t. I never believed nor taught that every thing outside the assembly was satanic. That was not an assembly teaching either. Were their concerns about ecumenical movements and ministerial association involvement, absolutely. From that we withdrew. There was never a teaching against playing with unsaved kids or other Christian kids, playing sports, or having extra curricular activities. In fact Christian friends at school was encouraged. The LB kids were involved in stuff too. It did require juggling a lot but the Lord undertook for that. So the assembly where Scott grew up was quite different than the assembly we attended.

In my second comment I am going to make some assumptions because I am a father. Scott speaks from his perspective. In his story there is an anger and resentment in his tone. That is not a criticism but it is reality. Not knowing his parents, I do not believe they did these things to hurt him. Parents who desire to follow the Lord are to be commended. Often in their pursuit their zeal can become too much. In their desire for godliness legalism encroaches. In this I speak from experience and all the while I was intending the best for my family. Do we call this diabolical sin or a mistake?

Many leading brothers and their wives put pressure on the saints to attend all the meetings and to abstain from activities that may be a reproach. Was this done for selfish ambition or because they believed it was the best for the flock? I believe for some it was ambition. But, just as strongly, I believe for some they were self sacrificing servants of God who never asked the saints to do something they weren’t the first to do. With that it is very sad that some paint all LBs and their wives with the same brush, except those they exempt because they feel like it. Not all LBs are wicked opportunists preying on helpless lambs. Some really are men of God. It would be nice to see that reflected on AB.

Over the years I have seen many Aks leave the Lord and pursue the world full ahead. I have also seen just as many Aks continue on serving the God of their salvation. If I compare that with the “healthy church” we attend, there are few young people walking with the Lord. Many are worldly, both they and their parents. They could use some restraint in their lives.

Scott, your parents made mistakes, however, I am quite sure that they love you and that they thought they were doing the best for you. You might want to tell them that.

I do not know if this is the same Bob Smith from before and it does not really matter re. to this discussion.

I have to agree with Bob that:

- not all assemblies were exactly the same.

- in most cases, the LBs/workers did care for the saints.

- in most cases, the LBs/workers were zealous and had a desire for godliness.

- all LBs/workers/parents made/make mistakes.

Where I believe that Bob is missing the point is that, in those areas where it mattered, the methods of discipling and counselling were basically the same in all assemblies, even in the overseas ones.

LBs/workers were trained by George and his servants, so even if they spent hours explaining Scriptures or ministering to the saints, the perspective presented was the Geftakys perspective.

I never believed nor taught that every thing outside the assembly was satanic. That was not an assembly teaching either. Were their concerns about ecumenical movements and ministerial association involvement, absolutely. From that we withdrew.

We just had an attitude that we had the "vision of the testimony to Jesus" and that we were superior to everything outside the assembly.  I remember that I had such an aversion to having to find a new place of fellowship should the Ottawa assembly disband.  It was a very strong feeling that came from the years of drilling that we would be stepping down and compromising should we go elsewhere.  It definitely was an assembly teaching (via Betty Geftakys') that leaving the assembly was akin to leaving the Lord.

Do we call this diabolical sin or a mistake?

I have not yet heard most LBs/workers/parents admit that, though they served with zeal and a sincere desire for godliness, that they made a mistake and were wrong.  So I conclude that it is diabolical.

The book The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse is aptly titled. Spiritual abuse is often subtle and it can have eternal consequences.

Bob raises some interesting questions:
What does it mean to "serve the God of our salvation"?
What does "worldliness" look like?

God bless,
Marcia

P.S. This comment, "The LB kids were involved in stuff too." would indicate that Bob was not a LB.  Bob, was it your wife's fault too that you missed the LB ranks?  or maybe it was because ...

MM

[vernecarty]

www.soaringwiththeeagles.com/yabbse/index.php?board=11;action=display;threadid=166;start=msg1271

 Do we call this diabolical sin or a mistake?


MM

Neither. There is an English word that describes it perfectly - STUPID.

I happily include myself, for other reasons,  in this category.
Why don't we stop giving alabis, making excuses, denying, and or trying to justify what was clearly our own culpability in all this?
Many failed as parents to protect their kids from this disaster.
That would be a great place to start wouldn't it?
The kids did not have a choice. We should shut our mouths when they take us to task for our stupidity. Kudos to Steve and Margaret for posting the article.

Verne
p.s. there is and elder at the church I attend who used to be in the lodge. His adult children will still not set foot inside a church. Every time we talk abou this, he shoulders full responsibility for their spiritual condition..he really ought not to, but he does....  
Verne

[Mark C.]

Hi Everyone!

   Marcia is correct, in that Bob Smith does indeed miss the point, as does Matt (see link to SWTE).

    Enroth has met this same kind of criticism of his books (from the usual suspect quarters), which is that one person's experience in a group should not indict the entire religious community discussed.

  The above "criticism" takes on a defense lawyer styled means to avoid any responsibility for a meaningful consideration of the group.  It is designed to deflect any criticism, the opposite of the proper spirit, which the Bible calls "entreatability."

     How so?

   Jesus indicted the entire church of Laodicea in Rev. with sweeping charges that may have caused some of the individual members to feel like they were being unfairly rebuked.

  A new member could claim: " I didn't know anything about the situation here at this church" = a plea of ignorance.

  Another person could find an excuse by saying, "the leader made me do it." = The NAZI war trials excuse.

   The leaders might have responded with: "You are attacking me in a non-Christ like method, and thus your entreaty cannot be considered (this message of Christ in Rev. was probably delivered by a human spokesman.  This would enable the leaders to reject it as not truly being from the Lord)  = I'll call this excuse the former unrepentant Assembly leader excuse.

  How about Matt's attempt to slander Scott by suggesting that he really is the problem?  This is classic cult/Assembly modis operandi in that it attempts to discredit the messenger to avoid considering the message = the turn the tables on em' method of avoiding entreaty.  

   All of the above, and more could be added, miss the point of Jesus' attempt to talk to this church.  The intended recipients of Jesus' message might have reacted in fear that His assesment would bring an end to their church. (selah)

  As we can see from the reactions of some former Assembly leaders, they mostly feared facing the fact that they were not only not serving the Lord in their Assembly past, but were actively involved in a system that hurt God's people!             This is a very difficult thing to accept.

   But what is the danger in considering that Jesus is indeed saying that the Assembly was involved in teaching and practices that damaged God's people?  Why do those over on SWTE, some former Assembly leaders, GG, churches addressed in Enroth books, etc. fight so doggedly against criticism of the group?

  It can only improve an individual or church to accept what James calls being, "easy to be entreated."  When we throw up all kinds of excuses to avoid the entreaty we are certainly not being "easy," and run the risk of the other half of that verse in James in being devil like (proud) or sensual.

                                       God Bless,  Mark C.