Sondra speaks out.

[editor]

Good Morning Tom,

Yes, I totally agree with what you say below.  Right on the money.  I just want to re-enforce that Calvinism is NOT an excuse for abusive speech, as I'm sure everyone agrees. 

With regard to this:

You said,

Quote

However, now that same zeal has made it harder for some of the folks who are later in arriving at the same conclusions to work things out because they are put off by the tone.  I can say that my heart and motive has always been to help people, but I can certainly understand why someone would be put off by my tone.


Do you actually know that the above is true?  Are there any individuals who can't work this about because of the "tone"?  Or are you saying that it could be true?

Thomas Maddux

I have heard that this is the case from several people.  I think that there is so much info to be gained here that it is a shame to run people off by misguided zeal.  I'm speaking as a guilty party.  For example, wouldn't you love the opportunity to sit down with Mike Zach and reason with him?  I would. But there is virtually no chance of that ever happening for several reasons, one of which is the "tone."

I am not suggesting we talk phoney to accomodate the most overly sensitive people who may be out there, I am just saying that we have our own little culture here, where we are so comfortable with eachother that we didn't blink when Sondra was getting all that said about her.

I also read the same email you got, and I was stunned.

This is not a broad condemnation of what we have here, it is just input designed to correct, strengthen and improve the forum.  This is usefull, and we don't want to wreck it.

Brent

[M2]

Thanks for clearing that up Brent and Tom.

Tom, this quote indicates that though Verne's Calvinism sets him on fire he has admitted to it being worong on his part.

Hi All,

I just wanted to let everyone know that Verne and I have exchanged emails a time or two.  We are going to take a week or so and catch up on some personal matters and then touch base again.  We did already get one important issue resolved.  Verne retracted the statement about despising me.  He said I could post the retraction.  He said that he didn't despise me, that it was just something he said in the heat of the moment.

I was very glad to hear him clarify that.   So, I think we are making good progress.

Lord Bless,

Sondra

Marcia

[outdeep]

1.  On the subject of the tone of the board, my position is that it is a problem that we really can't solve because a BB is an open mike and you pretty much get what you get.  Yes, you can control the extreme violations, but you can't prevent someone posting beause they "come across too black and white" or "their posts are too rambling and ditzy" or "they don't read too good what the other person is trying to say".

The only solution I know is for someone to start a blog where the main content is controlled and the comment discussion, though available is secondary (see www.worldmagblog.com for example).  In this way, a tone could be set (Is it theological debate?  Is it comfort for the hurting? Is it "just the facts" information? Is it confrontational?  Is it soothing?)

I'm not saying that I want to do a blog or that someone even should  My point is you will never control the tone in this kind of "open mike" forum.

Also...

2.  When the Geftakys statue was pulled off its foundations, dozens - if not hundreds - of folks were hitting this web site.  You couldn't get a word in edgewise.  Where did everyone go?  Some may possibly have been turned off by the tone of "mike hogs".  Others, I think, just got the information they needed and got on with their lives.  What keeps us here?

Basically, the few of us who are left have this need to keep communicating.  Why?  For each of us, the answer may be different.  For some of us it may be healthy reasons.  For others, it may be unhealthy reasons.  Whether for healthy or unhealthy, we keep posting - and there is nothing a BB can do to weed out the goats from the sheep.

For this reason, too, you are just not going to control tone on a BB.
-Dave

[editor]

1.  On the subject of the tone of the board, my position is that it is a problem that we really can't solve because a BB is an open mike and you pretty much get what you get.  Yes, you can control the extreme violations, but you can't prevent someone posting beause they "come across too black and white" or "their posts are too rambling and ditzy" or "they don't read too good what the other person is trying to say".

The only solution I know is for someone to start a blog where the main content is controlled and the comment discussion, though available is secondary (see www.worldmagblog.com for example).  In this way, a tone could be set (Is it theological debate?  Is it comfort for the hurting? Is it "just the facts" information? Is it confrontational?  Is it soothing?)

I'm not saying that I want to do a blog or that someone even should  My point is you will never control the tone in this kind of "open mike" forum.

Also...

2.  When the Geftakys statue was pulled off its foundations, dozens - if not hundreds - of folks were hitting this web site.  You couldn't get a word in edgewise.  Where did everyone go?  Some may possibly have been turned off by the tone of "mike hogs".  Others, I think, just got the information they needed and got on with their lives.  What keeps us here?

Basically, the few of us who are left have this need to keep communicating.  Why?  For each of us, the answer may be different.  For some of us it may be healthy reasons.  For others, it may be unhealthy reasons.  Whether for healthy or unhealthy, we keep posting - and there is nothing a BB can do to weed out the goats from the sheep.

For this reason, too, you are just not going to control tone on a BB.
-Dave

Yep, 

don't want to control it, never did, never will.

I do reserve the right to attempt to influence others however.

Brent

[vernecarty]

I have not disclosed the content of your e-mails to anyone.

Thomas Maddux

 

Clearly Tom's word is sufficient.
I thought it good to confirm that he certainly did not send it to me.
Verne

[M2]

Is this issue with Verne's abusive language settled?  If not, let's settle it now.

I observe that Sondra has not been addressed re. her language and comments about motives of various posters.  I suspect that it might slip and possibly will demonstrate how Verne "got away with it" for as long as he did.  Hopefully we will not have to go through this again in a few months, so what is to be done about Sondra's abusive language?  Should we agree to let it slip?  If so, lets not re-surface it at a later date.

Joe Sperling, I hope that you will continue to post on this BB.

Marcia

P.S.

I have not disclosed the content of your e-mails to anyone.

Thomas Maddux

Clearly Tom's word is sufficient.
I thought it good to confirm that he certainly did not send it to me.
Verne

Verne might benefit from seeing the contents, so that we can move on from this issue.
Marcia

[vernecarty]

  The beginning of strife is as when one letteth out water: therefore leave off contention, before it be meddled with.

Is this issue with Verne's abusive language settled?  If not, let's settle it now.

I observe that Sondra has not been addressed re. her language and comments about motives of various posters.  I suspect that it might slip and possibly will demonstrate how Verne "got away with it" for as long as he did.  Hopefully we will not have to go through this again in a few months, so what is to be done about Sondra's abusive language?  Should we agree to let it slip?  If so, lets not re-surface it at a later date.

Joe Sperling, I hope that you will continue to post on this BB.

Marcia

P.S.


Verne might benefit from seeing the contents, so that we can move on from this issue.
Marcia

Ms Sondra Jameson came to this BB at your and Brent's invitation, ostensibly to settle her greivances with me.
You evidently failed to give her proper Bibliical counsel as to how she should proceed in that regard.
You both stood by silently while she engaged in the most vicious  and thuggish conduct and even after apologising to here and staying off the BB for 24 hours, it did not take her long to start tearing into others, includindg Joe Sperling and even the moderator, Tom Maddux.
I wondered what you both would do at that point.
I had every intention of taking an extended break.
You have both repeated her charges against me on a public forum but neither of you required her to provide any proof of the various things she has accused me of. Once the accusations  became public, the evidence also should have Marcia.
I question your judgment. The  BB was a relatively peaceful place before she got here. It has been relatively peaceful since she left.
Assembly people got in trouble because they failed to heed their Bibles. You and Brent did the same thing in this regard.
I was unfortunately foolish enough to go along with the program even though I knew better.

Here is my advice to you. If you want to contiue to your own society with this person, please feel free to do so.
I would forego further attempts at facilitating though. I assume you did your best and the results speak for themselves I am sure you will agree.
If you don't mention her, I am farily certain no one here will. I consider the matter closed.
Verne
p.s. I know you may not want to hear this Marcia, but the simple fact is that you and Brent, knowingly or otherwise, were enlisted in a scheme to impugn my integrity in the eyes of the BB community. Look at the gloat in her posts when she thought it was going to work.
I knew she would fail the test of one week restraint. She apparently thought that meant she had the right to immediatlely e-mail with instructions to be quiet.

[M2]

Ms Sondra Jameson came to this BB at your and Brent's invitation, ostensibly to settle her greivances with me.
You evidently failed to give her proper Bibliical counsel as to how she should proceed in that regard.
You both stood by silently while she engaged in the most vicious  and thuggish conduct and even after apologising to here and staying off the BB for 24 hours, it did not take her long to start tearing into others, includindg Joe Sperling and even the moderator, Tom Maddux.
I wondered what you both would do at that point.
I had every intention of taking an extended break.
You have both repeated her charges against me on a public forum but neither of you required her to provide any proof of the various things she has accused me of. Once the accusations  became public, the evidence also should have Marcia.
I question your judgment. The  BB was a relatively peaceful place before she got here. It has been relatively peaceful since she left.
Assembly people got in trouble because they failed to heed their Bibles. You and Brent did the same thing in this regard.
I was unfortunately foolish enough to go along with the program even though I knew better.

Here is my advice to you. If you want to contiue to your own society with this person, please feel free to do so.
I would forego further attempts at facilitating though. I assume you did your best and the results speak for themselves I am sure you will agree.
If you don't mention her, I am farily certain no one here will. I consider the matter closed.
Verne

Yes, I did suggest that Verne and Sondra work at reconciliation, after having to read jabs at her by Verne on AB, and jabs at Verne by SWTE.  I do not regret having done so.

Also Verne, though I PMed you in the past, since this is now on public forum I am stating this publicly, in your particular case your language has offended more people than just Sondra.  I have not seen Sondra's email to Tom and Brent and do not need to.  As a regular poster on AB, there have been a number of occasions where I have felt for the one on the receiving end of your comments.  However, I also understand that it is easy to misunderstand 'tone' on a BB, hence I have, more often than not, given you the benefit of the doubt.  It is possible to sift through and just read what you are saying and respond to that, but not everyone is able to do so.

You consider the matter closed re. Sondra.  Are you saying that you consider it best that we not address Sondra for her language and comments about motives of other posters?  If so, does everyone else agree?  If so,  do we agree also to not bring it up, so that we can go on to other discussions?

I do not agree with Sondra's deeper-life theology.  I suspect that it may be that theology that gave Sondra confidence in 'sticking with her story' re. motives of various posters, even after the posters explained their true motivation.  IMO Sondra demonstrated how it is possible to get riled up about no one taking issue re. offense.  Though I am not condoning verbal abuse, I believe that AB posters, in the past, have expressed their anger at offenses by the Geftakys system.  There is not much of that happening any more.  We discuss matters as it relates to our Geftakys experience, and other matters as well.

God bless,
Marcia

[vernecarty]

Also Verne, though I PMed you in the past, since this is now on public forum I am stating this publicly, in your particular case your language has offended more people than just Sondra. 

In those cases where I believed I was in error, I was willing to accept responsibility and attempt to correct it.

You consider the matter closed re. Sondra.  Are you saying that you consider it best that we not address Sondra for her language and comments about motives of other posters?  If so, does everyone else agree?  If so,  do we agree also to not bring it up, so that we can go on to other discussions?

Christians are to adopt a posture of humility Marcia not, stupidity.
You mean to tell me that we are so dull as to lack discernment concernig whether someone is genuinely interested in settling differences instead of pursuing a divisive agenda?
The fault is mostly mine. I knew better.
The time to have dealt with the things she said was at the time that she said it.
It is pointless at this stage. Why subject the community to any more of this?

I do not agree with Sondra's deeper-life theology.  I suspect that it may be that theology that gave Sondra confidence in 'sticking with her story' re. motives of various posters, even after the posters explained their true motivation.  IMO Sondra demonstrated how it is possible to get riled up about no one taking issue re. offense.  Though I am not condoning verbal abuse, I believe that AB posters, in the past, have expressed their anger at offenses by the Geftakys system.  There is not much of that happening any more.  We discuss matters as it relates to our Geftakys experience, and other matters as well.

God bless,
Marcia

You are right about one thing. Confused theology leads to confusing behaviour. You may be making some unwarranted assumptions in all this. My advice is to simply let it be. I am happy to leave her correction to others.
Verne
p.s. Joe we miss your light touch my friend; don't stay away too long...
How 'bout them Illini??!!   

[editor]

In those cases where I believed I was in error, I was willing to accept responsibility and attempt to correct it.

Christians are to adopt a posture of humility Marcia not, stupidity.
You mean to tell me that we are so dull as to lack discernment concernig whether someone is genuinely interested in settling differences instead of pursuing a divisive agenda?
The fault is mostly mine. I knew better.
The time to have dealt with the things she said was at the time that she said it.
It is pointless at this stage. Why subject the community to any more of this?

 You are right about one thing. Confused theology leads to confusing behaviour. You may be making some unwarranted assumptions in all this. My advice is to simply let it be. I am happy to leave her correction to others.
Verne
p.s. Joe we miss your light touch my friend; don't stay away too long...
How 'bout them Illini??!!   

Verne,

At first I thought, "call her bluff, she has nothing on Verne."  I didn't bet her to come here, I said she should take things up with you personally.

She did.  I must say that I was surprised at the repeated, crescendoing language you used to describe her character.  Honestly, you spent more time attacking her morals than you did her ideas.  What's worse, you directly implied that she was an adulteress, and re-enforced that idea by using words like "trollup," and others.  You did this repeatedly.

Then, as is your habit, you follow your ideas with veiled threats or predictions of dire consequences in the near future, but you never come right out and say what is going to happen.

You have both repeated her charges against me on a public forum but neither of you required her to provide any proof of the various things she has accused me of.

Verne, your words are/were still in print on this forum.  I read them all, and I remember you saying them, and let me say that if it was said about my wife, or me I would be furious.  She is no less a person than I am.  You are the one who has no proof that she is an adulteress, and even if you did, is it wise to use that character assasination in this context?  There was also more than that.

Yes, you admitted you said those things, and then offered an unconditional apology.  It was one of your shorter posts, lacking much of the passion of the others.   However, you certainly have failed to demonstrate any kind of sustained humility in this particular matter, which is a huge dissappointment to me, I must confess.

You said all those things, and it hurt her.  They weren't true, they weren't kind, they weren't noble, they weren't edifying....they were mean.

Are you going to learn this lesson, or are you going to trivialize it?

I don't regret encouraging her to reconcile with you.  Not for a minute.  I do regret the fact that you aren't willing to bear with her in humility in order to reconcile.  Your doctrines don't agree, but that is no justification for your behavior.  She is no George, Verne.  Save the strong language for someone who deserves it.

I must say that I am dissappointed in you.  I honestly thought that you would humbly apologize for your error and change your ways.  Instead, you have actually validated her, and the others who have been offended by you.

Brent

[vernecarty]

Verne,

At first I thought, "call her bluff, she has nothing on Verne."  I didn't bet her to come here, I said she should take things up with you personally.

She did.  I must say that I was surprised at the repeated, crescendoing language you used to describe her character.  Honestly, you spent more time attacking her morals than you did her ideas.  What's worse, you directly implied that she was an adulteress, and re-enforced that idea by using words like "trollup," and others.  You did this repeatedly.

Then, as is your habit, you follow your ideas with veiled threats or predictions of dire consequences in the near future, but you never come right out and say what is going to happen.

Verne, your words are/were still in print on this forum.  I read them all, and I remember you saying them, and let me say that if it was said about my wife, or me I would be furious.  She is no less a person than I am.  You are the one who has no proof that she is an adulteress, and even if you did, is it wise to use that character assasination in this context?  There was also more than that.

Yes, you admitted you said those things, and then offered an unconditional apology.  It was one of your shorter posts, lacking much of the passion of the others.   However, you certainly have failed to demonstrate any kind of sustained humility in this particular matter, which is a huge dissappointment to me, I must confess.

You said all those things, and it hurt her.  They weren't true, they weren't kind, they weren't noble, they weren't edifying....they were mean.

Are you going to learn this lesson, or are you going to trivialize it?

I don't regret encouraging her to reconcile with you.  Not for a minute.  I do regret the fact that you aren't willing to bear with her in humility in order to reconcile.  Your doctrines don't agree, but that is no justification for your behavior.  She is no George, Verne.  Save the strong language for someone who deserves it.

I must say that I am dissappointed in you.  I honestly thought that you would humbly apologize for your error and change your ways.  Instead, you have actually validated her, and the others who have been offended by you.

Brent

Thank you for your opinon Brent. You are entitled to it my friend.
Verne

[Mercy4Me]

I agree with Brent. Thanks.

[M2]

...
p.s. I know you may not want to hear this Marcia, but the simple fact is that you and Brent, knowingly or otherwise, were enlisted in a scheme to impugn my integrity in the eyes of the BB community. Look at the gloat in her posts when she thought it was going to work.
I knew she would fail the test of one week restraint. She apparently thought that meant she had the right to immediatlely e-mail with instructions to be quiet.

I only just saw this addendum post script.
Verne, it is like I said, your jabs and SWTE's jabs finally got to me and I was hoping for reconciliation.  I did not consult Brent on this initiative.  It was all my own doing.
Are you saying that her gloating (to use your terminology) has something to do with your lack of humility on this issue?

Marcia

[vernecarty]

I only just saw this addendum post script.
Verne, it is like I said, your jabs and SWTE's jabs finally got to me and I was hoping for reconciliation.  I did not consult Brent on this initiative.  It was all my own doing.
Are you saying that her gloating (to use your terminology) has something to do with your lack of humility on this issue?

Marcia

O.K Marcia, I will give it one more try.
Two people are having a heated disagreement with unkind things being said on both sides.
One of them draws up a list of all the unkind things the other person has said and sends it to several people appealing for sympathy and presumably justice.
Two of these individuals appoint themselves facilitators and send the person with the list to seek "reconciliation".
Let's get personal.
You and Brent never talk to me about this list but come on the BB with Sondra and hold up a humility hoop for the well-trained assembly pet to jump through.
At the time, I fully well knew that just an apolgy would not solve the problem as issues involved far more than uncharitable things said on both sides.
By the way, if you or Brent throw out the lack of humility charge again I am simply gping to have to puke.
Ths has nothing to do with humility and that tactic of manipulation is a thing of a by-gone era.
Where is the list of lies, slander and abuse perpetrated by your aggrieved party?
Where were your own voices in protest when even after I had left the scene, this woman immediately became engaged in conflict with others on the BB.
And you and Brent want to make this about me?
Do I look that stupid to either of you?
Do forgive me for trying to be gracious.
The way you have handled this has seriously damaged your credibility with me. There are still some on the BB whose word has some weight with me and you are not one of them.
The things I say in public, are the same I say in private, which is more than I can say for some people.
It was never about reconciliation!!
For the two or you to come on here and try and lay this at my door step is nothing short of sickening.
I suggest we quit while we are still ahead.
Verne
p.s. Both you and Brent have deeply offended me with your slip-shod attemtps at mediation. How about another round of apologies from the both of you?

[Marty]

I don't theink Brent and Marcia owe Verne anything. It Verne who is in debt.