Sondra speaks out.

[outdeep]

Brent:

Wrestling is an interesting sport.  My son did it for a while so I traveled around North Carolina going to all-day-Saturday matches.  I got to enjoy it and kind of miss it.

Joe:

Don't feel bad about feeling bad.  There would be something wrong with you if you didn't feel a bit violated about the sport comment.  Healthy people react like this:

Joe:  How 'bout them Patriots.
Other:  Hey!  You're being mean making as if our differences out like compitition!  I don't appreciate that.
Joe:  No. I really didn't intend it that way.  It is just a cultural reference like (explanation).
Other:  OK.  I guess I just took it wrong.  (or) Well, OK.  It still fell a little snotty to me but I'll accept your explanation.

Unhealthy people react like this:

Joe:  How 'bout them Patriots.
Other:  Hey!  You're being mean making as if our differences out like compitition!  I don't appreciate that.
Joe:  No. I really didn't intend it that way.  It is just a cultural reference like (explanation).
Other:  No, that is not what you meant!  You are just being deceitful.  I know exactly what you mean and now you are trying to sidestep the issue in your life.  Blah blah blah . . .
Joe:  No, really. It was just a joke. I'm sorry.
Others:  What do you take me for!  I'm onto you and your sinful motivation. You need to repent.  Blah blah blah . . .

The latter, unhealthy approach creates a chilling environment where folks feel they have to guard their words, never venture out with a joke (jokes are a risk as they always have the real possibility of failing) or speaking completely truthfully because you never know if some unintentional nuance is going to crash back over your head.  Kind of reminds me of couples retreats with Betty.

[moonflower2]

In response to SWTB:

When someone has spead rumors about me, I confront the person, one on one, to try to rectify the problem; to explain what the situation really is. On occasion, I have talked to someone else, if I'm having a hard time dealing with the shock of a rumor.  I have run into that problem many times. To try to keep a squeeky clean rep is not possible, even if one has one. Someone is always going to bash you, or make up a lie based on a partial truth.

To gather a crowd to observe the anger, accusations, apology, and refusal to accept the apology, is like holding an episode of Jerry Springer.

IMO Verne apologized to SJ, but she is wanting him to change. God makes that determination. Verne apologized for the names he used. If he wants to continue to use "strong language" that is his prerogative. He apologized for calling her names. Leave him be.

[Joe Sperling]

Thanks for the post Dave. I've always enjoyed your perspective on things.  Hey Brent--
be careful with the poker. Have you ever seen a movie called "Owning Mahony"? It's
a true story about a Canadian guy who worked in a bank making like $15,000 a year. But
his position as a loan officer gave him the ability to make fraudulent loans which he then
used to go gambling in Vegas. He started out small, but wound up stealing about 10 million
dollars in total---and he lost all of it gambling!! He was finally caught and has not gambled since.
It's really an amazing story. Not that you would do the same .

Too bad about the boat, but I'm glad you have an outlet with your neighbor. In regards
to wrestling, Jacob was probably one of the best of all time.

--Joe

[editor]

Thanks for the post Dave. I've always enjoyed your perspective on things.  Hey Brent--
be careful with the poker. Have you ever seen a movie called "Owning Mahony"? It's
a true story about a Canadian guy who worked in a bank making like $15,000 a year. But
his position as a loan officer gave him the ability to make fraudulent loans which he then
used to go gambling in Vegas. He started out small, but wound up stealing about 10 million
dollars in total---and he lost all of it gambling!! He was finally caught and has not gambled since.
It's really an amazing story. Not that you would do the same .

Too bad about the boat, but I'm glad you have an outlet with your neighbor. In regards
to wrestling, Jacob was probably one of the best of all time.

--Joe

Hi Joe,

Im not robbing too many banks at this stage....

Also, contrary to popular misconceptions, poker is not necessarily gambling.  It can be, and many players do gamble out of ignorance or stupidity, but the game itself is one of skill.  California legalized it, unlike 21 or slots, because the house has no advantage over the players.  In like manner, no player has an advantage over another, unless it be due to skill, or luck, the latter being nothing more than mathmatical variance.

The psychology behind the game is absolutely fascinating.  Winning money is also fun.   

I'm actually playing a No-limit Holdem tournament and a 3-6 Omaha hi/lo split as I type.

Brent

[Uh Oh]

What did Sondra speak out about?  Who is Sondra?

On a different note...

Brent - I'm glad to hear that there are other poker players on this site.  You are absolutely right that it is a game of skill. I also agree that the psychology behind it is definitely fascinating.  Somebody the other day was admiring how patient I am when I play.  I explained to this person that it is easy to be patient when from the time you are 2-17  years old, you sat through 3-4 one and a half to three hour meetings per week that you absolutely had no interest being at.  Passing the time playing poker is simple and enjoyable compared to that.

Look at that...I admitted some good did come out of that assembly.

[vernecarty]

Hi Folks. I invoked my 24 hour rule on this and in accordance with Tom's entreaty this will be only post on the subject.

The definition of humility in the assemblies was that you accepted any and all criticism and accusations without reflection and/or rebuttal. Particularly if it came from a worker or leading brother or one of their agents. It did not matter if there was no factual basis in what was being asserted, nor if there were mitigating circumstances, you were guilty as charged, and permitted to demonstrate your humility by promptly and meekly agreeing with whatever was said in accusation. Sounds familiar?
I apologized to Sondra for calling her an adulteress and my apology stands.
It does not matter whether I think someone married more than once qualifies or not for that is not the point. The spirit and purpose attending the statement was intended to injure and that was wrong. Any thing said in that spirit, factual or not is wrong and I readily admit that. I have made many such statements in referring to her and they also were wrong.
I have not repeated such statements to the best of my knowledge with the exception to state that her recent conduct on the BB was “vicious” and “thuggish”.
I get the impression the in the minds of some, my apology to her meant that I would never again criticize anything that she did, nor publicly disagree with her.
Why would any one make such an assumption?
I remained silent as shortly after accepting my apology, she trained her guns on new targets.
How is it that she insists on being treated with respect and deference by those visiting her website, yet she is allowed to come here and insult the moderator of this board, and hurl ludicrous accusations at one of our regular posters? This person in the face of this kind of accusation then felt the need to delete an entirely innocent post. Why were some of you e-mailing me in private to criticize her while remaining silent when this was going on?
This is rank hypocrisy! While I am loathe to mention this, even after we had agreed to wait a week to talk about our differences, she got on the BB and launched another unbelievable slew of charges as a result of outrage over my not responding to an e-mail I had not even read!
Every one who knows the history of her website knows that she has been on a search and destroy mission so far as Verne Carty is concerned since the day it was launched. While she may criticize and disagree with me, she does not have the right to slander and lie about me. My own failing was to respond to her in kind. This is undoubtedly the street-fighter instinct in me (an instinct which has saved my life more than once) but it was certainly not Christian conduct.
I knew this woman was insincere when she admitted that she may have posted false statements about my tenure at Champaign Alliance Church yet did not have the decency to retract it.
She clams to be a believer.
Why is she sending lists of things I have said to her that offended her to everyone but me?
Why is it that she chose not to follow the Biblical standard and confront me as a brother in Christ with those matters privately?
Is it possibly because her conscience would not allow it?
Was it because it was always her intention to enlist the support of presumably credible people in her non-stop attempts to discredit me?
Is it possible that she realized that there were cat’s paws she could employ by playing the sympathy game and using that to present me in the poorest light?
Here’s the biggest the biggest disappointment of all.
Rather than advise her, as was proper, to send that list to the offending party and recite her grievances, the list is apparently accepted as fact, no opportunity for rebuttal is given, but everyone involved gets on the BB during her full-scale assault and makes  public statements about the ball being in my court.
To try to publicly ambush me (to say nothing of subjecting the BB to this fiasco) instead of allowing  me to deal with this in private, was not mediation.  It was grand-standing. I ought to know for I have done my fair share of it. I am happy for them if it won you her respect for those involved, but at what cost?.
I apologized not because of the Brent, Marcia and Sondra troika. I apologized because God used what what Dave posted to prick me in the conscience and I had to admit that he was right; that I myself  had often been heavy- handed even on the BB and that was not right.
An apology at the time was proper, regardless of what I personally felt about this person..
Despite the statement about everything she said about me being validated by my now speaking out against her on-going conduct, the apology was sincere.
I will repeat that my own conduct toward Sondra Jameson was not right and my apology was genuine. I am deeply disappointed that those of you calling yourselves her friends, and mine, did not have the courage to say the same thing to her and say so publicly.
Tom, I want to say to you as moderator this will be the last time I use this person’s name or refer to her in any way on this BB. Thanks for your patience.
Verne

[editor]

What did Sondra speak out about?  Who is Sondra?

On a different note...

Brent - I'm glad to hear that there are other poker players on this site.  You are absolutely right that it is a game of skill. I also agree that the psychology behind it is definitely fascinating.  Somebody the other day was admiring how patient I am when I play.  I explained to this person that it is easy to be patient when from the time you are 2-17  years old, you sat through 3-4 one and a half to three hour meetings per week that you absolutely had no interest being at.  Passing the time playing poker is simple and enjoyable compared to that.

Look at that...I admitted some good did come out of that assembly.

Where and what do you play?

Brent

[Uh Oh]

I play 3-4 times per week.  I am in a league here in Omaha that "thefantasypokerleague.com" puts on.  Its a free league played in bars/restaraunts that I play in two - three times per week.  You can accumulate points based on how you do. The grand prize is a seat at the World Series of Poker. More than anything though, Its great practice for cash games.  I also play about one cash tournament per week - usually with aquaintances at a house.  When I went to Vegas in September, I played in a 160 person tournament and finished in the top 20.  That was fun.  I was one bad read away from being in command of that whole deal.

I don't play online, simply because I think half of the fun is reading people, plus, to many weird things have happened on line when I have played.  For ex.  An ace of spades will make someones flush, someone elses A high straight, make someone elses ace low straight, give someone trip aces, etc.  At least that is the way it seems.  I don't like playing for free online because I get in to many bad habits.  I do realize that people have tells online as well, but to me its just not the same as playing in person.

I am actually playing in a tournament tonight here in Omaha that should have over 150 people.  Should be fun.

Back to my first question...Who is Sondra?

[moonflower2]

Reply to SWTB:

She hasn't been called anything I haven't already been called. Get over it.

[editor]

I play 3-4 times per week.  I am in a league here in Omaha that "thefantasypokerleague.com" puts on.  Its a free league played in bars/restaraunts that I play in two - three times per week.  You can accumulate points based on how you do. The grand prize is a seat at the World Series of Poker. More than anything though, Its great practice for cash games.  I also play about one cash tournament per week - usually with aquaintances at a house.  When I went to Vegas in September, I played in a 160 person tournament and finished in the top 20.  That was fun.  I was one bad read away from being in command of that whole deal.

I don't play online, simply because I think half of the fun is reading people, plus, to many weird things have happened on line when I have played.  For ex.  An ace of spades will make someones flush, someone elses A high straight, make someone elses ace low straight, give someone trip aces, etc.  At least that is the way it seems.  I don't like playing for free online because I get in to many bad habits.  I do realize that people have tells online as well, but to me its just not the same as playing in person.

I am actually playing in a tournament tonight here in Omaha that should have over 150 people.  Should be fun.

Back to my first question...Who is Sondra?

Im gonna play in Vegas the end of March. I plan to play some low-limit ring games with Suzie, she likes to play, and then take a few sattelites for the big NL tourney at Bellagio.  I had a similiar experience to the one you describe above on my last trip.

In the Tues nite NL tourney at the Mirage, I was about 100 bucks below chip leader with 16 people left.  They paid the last nine, and I had enough chips to limp into the money.  I got AQspades and called the chip leader, who came in for a good sized raise.

The flop had an ace and two spades.  He pushed all in, and I agonized.  I knew he had AK, but I had the flush draw...and what if he didn't have AK.....what if I hit my flush, or a Q?  So, I called, and never hit a spade.....and he took all my chips and went on to easily win 10k!!

Since then, I absolutely hate AQ.  No hand has cost me more than that hand, except perhaps AA, in loose games.

If you're out here, look me up and we can make the rounds.  There are 3 cardrooms within a halfhour of my house.  In CA, they are all Non-smoking, Non-drinking and non-cussing.  Decent group of people for most part.

Anyhow, as I'm typing this, I'm playing.  Today I've placed in a tourney, got busted out of one, and made about 300 in a 2/4 Omaha hilo game.

Are you familiar with Doyle Brunson?  He has an awesome Christian testimony, and is my favorite card player by far.

Brent

[Uh Oh]

I really do like how the Sondra thread has turned into the no limit hold em thread....

No drinking, smoking, or cussing card rooms in CA.  That sounds way to good to be true.  Smoke drives me crazy, which really limits where I play.  I do also like Doyle Brunson.  I read his original book.  It was more geared towards cash games and I mainly play tournaments, but there are some really good points in there.

I am in a slump right now.  I am playing the percentages, but gettting extremely unlucky.  In my game last night I had pocket tens.  I raised a fairly substantial amount pre flop.  I had only one caller.  At this point, he was the chip leader but I was a close second.  The flop came 7, 10, J. No flush draw out there.  I went all in thinking if he had called my raise with 89, then so be it.  He called my all in and had AJ.  The turn was a jack which game me my boat.  The river was an ace which game him a higher boat.

Ouch!!!

I also hate AQ.  I always just seem to get drawn on out on it or beat somehow.

[moonflower2]

Anyone interested in ending this thread and the remembrance of the Jerry Springer episode?

[editor]

I really do like how the Sondra thread has turned into the no limit hold em thread....

No drinking, smoking, or cussing card rooms in CA.  That sounds way to good to be true.  Smoke drives me crazy, which really limits where I play.  I do also like Doyle Brunson.  I read his original book.  It was more geared towards cash games and I mainly play tournaments, but there are some really good points in there.

I am in a slump right now.  I am playing the percentages, but gettting extremely unlucky.  In my game last night I had pocket tens.  I raised a fairly substantial amount pre flop.  I had only one caller.  At this point, he was the chip leader but I was a close second.  The flop came 7, 10, J. No flush draw out there.  I went all in thinking if he had called my raise with 89, then so be it.  He called my all in and had AJ.  The turn was a jack which game me my boat.  The river was an ace which game him a higher boat.

Ouch!!!

I also hate AQ.  I always just seem to get drawn on out on it or beat somehow.

Poker is changing.  It is becoming so popular now, housewives, school teachers, celebrities, doctors, lawyers, everyone is playing.  The trend is identical to what happened with Harleys.  Once upon a time, they were associated with unsavory characters and Hell's Angels.  To give an example, I played a cash game couple months ago with my son's football coaches, the wrestling coaches, his biology teacher, and a couple of their friends.  All nice, normal guys.  They were so nice I almost felt guilty taking most of their money!  (amateurs....been there, done that.)

Anyhow, we decided to do a No Limit Hold'em tournament as a booster club fundraiser, we the athletic department keeps half, and the players get half for prize money.  It should be the most profitable fundraiser ever.

Ok, here's my badbeat story---yours made me feel much better, thanks! ---

Played Omaha Sunday and Wednesday night, this week.  I won Sunday, did very well, but lost about 200 dollars I should have won in the following manner:

I had A2AK double suited, and raised pre-flop.  I was called by the usual fish.  I flopped the nut flush and a draw to the nut low.  I check raised on the flop, bet out on the turn, jammed the pot, and got heads up with a guy who wasn't sure what he had.

He called on the river and hit his only out to make a straight flush.  He had no low draw, and the low never got there for me.  I ran the odds on the computer that night, and he had less than 1 percent chance of winning that hand on the turn!  Here's the bad part....he did the same thing to me about an hour later!   

Wednesday nite....exactly the same situation.  People thought I was cursed, and said stuff like,  "I'm not sitting next to you, a meteor could hit me."

Everything seems to be evening out though.  I look at that as being cheap lessons in good poker.  People who are "lucky" the first few years they play never develop their game, whereas I have learned how to fold.

Anyhow, all the cardrooms here are as I descibed above.  It's really funny to run into someone from church, but hey, the game is changing.

Brent

PS, let me sign you up as a buddy on Ultimate Bet, and we'll both get a cash reward.

[Joe Sperling]

I don't know a lot about cards. The last game I was at people were saying things
like "got any sixes?" or "got any fives?" I kind of lost interest at that time, but maybe
poker might prove more interesting. I'd just have to understand some of the terminology
a little better I think.

--Joe

[editor]

I don't know a lot about cards. The last game I was at people were saying things
like "got any sixes?" or "got any fives?" I kind of lost interest at that time, but maybe
poker might prove more interesting. I'd just have to understand some of the terminology
a little better I think.

--Joe

Sorry to bore you with the proprietary language, Joe.

Watch the Travel Channel and you can see exactly what we are talking about and learn the game.  It takes about 20 minutes to learn, and a lifetime to master....