Reply to Sondra, part 1 of 2:
Al, there's something funny about this story when only part of the story is being told, don't you think? I never heard of anyone requiring someone to sell their car in the assembly.
No, I don't. It's his story, to tell however he wishes to tell it.
I asked specific questions because people are being bad mouthed perhaps justifiably - perhaps not.
What people? Joe mentioned no names (obviously, in my eyes, because he doesn't want to drag up the past or make anyone uncomfortable), and he told us that he has forgiven all concerned, and has been forgiven as well.
This person who made Joe sell his car sounds like a real horses rear end to me - by any standard. To be fair I would think that a few more details would need to be disclosed, don't you think?
Who cares, decades after the fact, what you or I may think of this person who remains nameless and unknown to us all?
Again I ask: fair to who? No one has been named or implicated and the whole issue has been pronounced ended and closed.
Use all of the story or none would probably be a good rule of thumb. If the story illustrated his point, I would think the whole story would illustrate it better.
You are free to think what you wish and live by whatever rules-of-thumb you choose, as is Joe and all free people.
I'm not trying to argue, but I do like to be specific re. instruction from the Word re. forgiveness and confession.
My question regarding this statement is:
How seriously are you trying to not argue?
I'm afraid I don't see that giving up sin and converting to righteousness is all that simple. There are many sinners who don't do it. There are many proud Christians who don't do it.
Indeed. And that is often because it is too simple. There is no glory in it; no garnering of attention to oneself. One is convicted. One acknowledges the Lord's gracious forgiveness. One repents. What could be more simple? But where's the fanfare? Where's the "Hey everybody- Looka me!!!"?
So what is simple? I agree that when one truly repents and turns to God in truth and turns from his/her sin, that, yes, it is then simple. But as I remark about ballet. It looks so easy. It is easy if you know how to do it.
Jesus didn't say that knowhow is required, but childlikeness (simplicity).
No. See, I think words really matter. I think when one apologizes and then within a few hours is back at the old sin - I then wonder whether he meant what he said in his apology. Was it just to "get everybody off my back" type of thing? Maybe? I think it's worth asking a couple questions.
Personal matters, best settled personally, but I understand that it is too late for that because what should have been personal (or better yet not at all) was made public and wants for a public settlement. Perhaps abandoning the "I know you are, but what am I?" approach of exchanging insults in a spirit of one-upmanship, and replacing it with a
precise description of exactly what it is you want to accomplish, i.e. to receive from the other party, might actually allow the matter to be concluded. Such a description would seem to be in keeping with your thought that "words really matter," as stated above.
What's to hope when we can know by reading?
You will havce to take up this question with the Author of the Bible, which says much about Hope, e.g. "Love hopes all things..."
How is one to know what one is saying at face value when what is being said, including the various apologies, are modified from day to day?
Maybe one is not to know. Maybe one is to walk by faith, and not by knowing. The Bible also says a great deal about "knowing," but I don't recall it mentioning knowing anything about knowing about modified apologies...
It's a little late to be concerned about exhuming sins of brethren, isn't it Al? Besides, I have some extra time on my hands over and above the time it takes me to keep my own personal accounts before God. The sins of others have been managed, I might add poorly, IMO, by several on this board since it's onset.
Well, I'll have to concede to you that point, Sondra. You are ahead of me in that respect. I have neither the time nor the wisdom to ride herd on my brethren's sins.
The lesson I have learned from reading the AB is "don't trust" and I think it is a good lesson. When one uses a personal illustration to make a point, I think the whole story and not just half should be told....especially since so many of us know one another. Honesty and disclosure of both sides is important, is it not?
Presumably your "don't trust" is directed at people and not at the Lord, in which case I'm certainly inclined to agree with you. People are quite consistent in failings, and will usually manage to let you down sooner or later. On the other hand, Jesus never fails.
The fact that you or I think something is not enough to establish it as a "should be."
Honesty and disclosure may be vitally important or not, depending on the circumstances. In the case of Joe's story, it's ancient history-- there's nothing there to be disclosed. Just my opinion, of course, & certainly no more valid than yours.
I'm not being sarcastic.
Same here. Seriously.
(continued in next post...)
