Sondra speaks out.

[al Hartman]

Reply to Sondra, part 2 of 2:

  I really think one half of the story shouldn't be told and the other half left open for one's imagination to fill in.  This person who sounds like a complete creep for counseling Joe to sell his car sounds absolutely awful.  I think it's reasonable to ask - what were the Leading Brother's wife's reasons for doing so?

Two points:

1.]  The scripture tells us to cast down our imaginations and to bring every thought into obedience to Christ, so there's really no need, nor excuse, to let one's imagination fill in anything.

2.]  If you think it is reasonable for you to ask, then it is...  If Joe thinks it is reasonable for him to not answer, then it is.  We aren't here to control one another, and if we have control issues, we ought not foist them upon each other, but pray and request prayer to be delivered from them.  I, for one, have a tendency to want to control my environment (including the saints I'm around), and would appreciate your prayers in support of my own to be delivered from this ungodly trait.
 

Al, Al, Al... I was in no way trying to argue or provoke.  Joe left the conversation because of what you posted, it is clear from his exiting post.  Now look, let's be honest here.  Shifting blame onto me doesn't work.

OK, Sondra, being perfectly honest, what exactly did I say that makes you think I have tried to shift blame for anything onto you?  The quote to which you addressed this remark was:

I believe that Sondra is right in saying we should all read each other carefully:  trying to understand exactly what is being said (not reading in "hidden" implications that were unintended by the poster), having respect for what has not been said, and asking honest (not biased or "leading") questions for the sake of clarification only (not argumentation or provocation).

   ...in which my only mention of you was to say that I believed that you were right about what you had said.  Your trying to turn my statement into a casting of blame upon you illustrates the very point I was attempting to make:   "not reading in "hidden" implications that were unintended by the poster."

I was having a peaceful conversation with Joe and was taking him very seriously.  You came riding in and are treating Joe like a kid.

If it was a private conversation, it didn't belong on a public forum.  If it wasn't private, where's the foul?
I have already explained that I posted before even reading Joe's post, and wasn't "treating him" at all, much less "like a kid."

  He's a grown man and can speak for himself.  He suddenly got weak kneed when you came in with the post that would make a Saint Theresa herself feel badly about what had been said.

Joe has and does speak for himself.  I don't think he was weak-kneed.  Joe used to live in my house, but perhaps you know and understand him better than I do.  It seemed quite evident to me that his Eagles post had nothing to do with your BB, and that his apology, although unnecessary, was completely genuine.  But what do I know?

  You should perhaps teach a Sunday School Class or something Al.  You need an outlet I think.

You are more than welcome to think whatever you choose about me, and to post it.  I have no idea what you need or what you should do, so don't expect a comeback from me.

There will however be a lot of folks who understand that the atonement of Christ is without limits, IMHO.

I say this only to go on record:  Sondra, IMO, there is nothing H about your O.

  Did you get a chance to look at that link I put up re. C.H. Spurgeon's views re. his views on Calvinism?  I think Calvinism has been discussed quite a lot over here, hasn't it?  Why do I suddenly get the impression you aren't wanting the subject discussed?

As is becoming more and more the case, I have no idea what you base your "impressions" upon.  Is it because I made the neutral statement that the Lord won't be welcoming us to His kingdom according to our doctrinal preferences?  Why are you asking me why you get a sudden impression?  How does this fit in with your thinking that "words really matter?"  Please just say what you mean.

Just so you may understand, I have no problem at all with any discussions that have occurred so far re: calvinism.  I was just weighing in with my own opinion.  Whatever "impressions" you gathered beyond my actual words, I'm unable to account for.

  And, did I say I didn't think both would be in heaven?  I didn't think I said that.  Spurgeon however, clearly stated that he believes that Armin.'s are heretics.   This doesn't sound very friendly to me.

Sondra

And I don't think I said that you said anything at all about what you said.  It may seem incredible to you, but when I don't name names it is because I am speaking generally.  If I have something to say to you personally, I will address it to you by name, e.g.:

Sondra, you may take up your differences with Spurgeon when you meet him-- as far as I care, you are entitled to whatever opinion of him you choose to hold.

I hope these statements help to establish where I stand...

In Christ,
al

[M2]

on edit:

Anyone could have taken a stand, but there was a price to pay.  Are you seeing some things now on this forum, but you don't want to rock the boat?

Sondra

I am still clueless, but will take a stab at what you mean.

I do not have any boat to rock at this time because IMO Verne has apologized to you, and you have apologized to Verne.

I would really like to move on and discuss other topics now.

Marcia

[moonflower2]

Some of you assume you have been hurt like none other. 
Sondra

Some of "us" ?  !

[editor]

on edit:

I am still clueless, but will take a stab at what you mean.

I do not have any boat to rock at this time because IMO Verne has apologized to you, and you have apologized to Verne.

I would really like to move on and discuss other topics now.

Marcia

I think what she is trying to say is, "If things were as bad as you say they were, why did you stay in that situation?  Why didn't you get up and leave?"  I assumed it was a question aimed at a large audience, namely those of us who believe we suffered abuse of one form or another in the Assembly.

In my opinion it is a valid question, and one that each of us should really answer.  Why did it take so long for some of us to get up and walk out?  

It is due to a character flaw/weakness in each of us, which has been discussed at length on this very forum.  That weakness, coupled with other factors allowed us to become entangled in George's world.  It's the same type of dynamic that enables a woman to stay in an abusive relationship.

We all need to face this, in order to own our own culpability in the matter.  Certainly George "did it" to us, in many ways....however, what sane person would allow him to do this?  That's a tough one to swallow.

I would say that the Assembly sympathizers, who are still following God's perfect pattern of testimony, and reading George's books, etc.....they really need to face this, as do those who inisist that they were serving God, in spite of the problems.  I maintain that even the most sincere among the latter group need to ask themselves why there were oblivious to the hurting sheep around them, and why they continue to place most of the blame on the victims, and not on those  who have the greater sin.

I'm not directing this at anyone in particular, because I think each of us falls into at least one of the groups I listed above.  All I am trying to say is that in the final analysis, very few people were physically held captive.  There were some who came close, like Judy, and some of the children, but most of us were there by choice, and remained there because we were too cowardly to stand tall and walk out.

If there is anything I'll say about Sondra, it is that at least she had the courage to get up and leave.  Regardless of anything else she may say, think or do, she certainly bested me on that count.

Brent

[Joe Sperling]

Sondra---

I really don't need anyone to come and "kiss my wounds" as you state. I brought up the car
issue as a "historical" thing, to show what lack of forgiveness/warping of the concept of for-
giveness can lead to, not for any pity. This event happened happened many, many years ago,
and all involved have been forgiven, and have completely changed their ways since that time.

Bob Smith hit the nail on the head with his post below. A lot of us were "followers of men"
at that time---but I must point out--the Assembly taught us to do so. "Obey them that have
the rule over you" was taken quite literally. This was shown by "Leading Brothers" having the
power to "control" people to extreme limits---even to whom one should marry. I admit I was
extremely weak at the time--I was 21, yet inside I was like a 14 year old kid--scared, and with
no self-esteem at all. I "allowed" myself to be manipulated, and I "allowed" myself to be trodden
down without taking a stand. The Assembly was a system that was set up that way though--the strong ruled over the weak(though the "strong" were really extremely weak people themselves if
they had lived in the REAL world--they were given the ability to be "leaders" in this microcosm of a
world called "The Assembly"--there they were considered "strong" and "spokesmen for God").

We were adults who were ruled over as children--especially in the "brother's houses". You were expected to report everything you were doing, and to never say "no" to one considered a leader. In one of the articles on the GA website a brother mentions "taking a walk" one Saturday and having a leading brother come to a screeching halt in his car and asking "Where are you going"? The brother states he's simply going for a walk. "Did you tell anyone where you were going?"  Now, this brother was like 25 years old at the time--does he have to "let someone know" that he is taking a walk?  I can attest to the same things for sure--I lived through them too. We "allowed" men to rule over us--but these same men had a very powerful manipulator they could use--it's called the Bible. And they could open that Bible and quote "Obey them that have the rule over you", and "rebellion as is the sin of witchcraft" to keep everyone in line.

There is no need for me to repeat the very long story of what happened with the car--I know what happened, and if you choose to disbelieve it that's your right. I would just like to say that I have no desire to come on the BB, in front of the Lord, and make up a story for kicks. I also do not want to repeat an old story to get "pity" from anyone. Everyone suffered different things in their experiences with the Assembly. I think a lot of it depended on what Assembly you were in, and at what time-frame it happened. The important thing is that I have learned a lot from what I went through back in those days, and one of the most important things is to be quick to forgive. That was the whole basis for my original post. 1 Corinthians says that "love suffers long and is kind" that love thinks "the best" of someone else, especially a brother or sister in Christ. I have not learned this completely, that's for sure, but I want to have a tendency to believe my brethren in Christ rather than distrust them or cast doubts upon their integrity. In that "event" that happened so long ago I can say that I love the brothers and sisters who were involved with all of my heart, and I have forgiven it all long ago. I know they have forgiven me for those days also, because they have told me that, and I have no reason to doubt them.

God bless, Joe

[al Hartman]

Al, I would endorse the following response to your post re. Calvinism vs. Arminianism.  I would only add that any of God's people who reject those who are Christ's cannot walk in the Spirit of Christ.  His Spirit, as you know, is a spirit of love and acceptance.  The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.  Disagreement among ourselves is one thing, but to out and out judge and condemn others to hell and destruction who are in faith in Christ is what I would call a BIG PROBLEM with God Who paid so dearly for our salvation.

Are there corrections?  Speak the truth in love.  Are there reproofs?  Be entreatable.   Love the brethren, fervently.

sj


Quote from: Bob Smith on February 28, 2005, 09:01:47 pm
I am not addressing an individual here but a way of thinking that is so prominent. It is this very thing that Paul addressed with the Corinthians. “I am of Paul, I am of Apollos, I am of Cephas, I am of Christ. Is Christ divided?” 1Cor 1:12.

This division that adheres our loyalties to man and not to Christ is the greatest hindrance to the furtherance of the gospel. It is this division that compromises the integrity of the church in the eyes of the world. This division is why there are the Calvinist/Armenian debates that continue to thwart fellowship. We come down on one side or the other rather than “search the scriptures daily to see if these things were so.

In 1Cor.1:12, "Now this I say, that every one of you says, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.", there are at least two crucial points to be seen.  First, the verse leads into a question in verse 13, "Is Christ divided?", based upon the previous verses, in which Paul takes note of the situation at hand: 

[10] Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
[11] For it has been declared unto me of you, my brethren...that there are contentions among you.

Second, the question hinges upon declarations of partisanship which include the phrase "I am of Christ."

Stating the obvious, the answer to the question is clearly an emphatic "NO!"  Christ is not, and can never be, divided.  To think otherwise is to put the destiny of the Son of God under the control of men.

Paul is exhorting the brethren in Corinth to unity not because they did or could divide Christ, but because their denominational behavior (making divisions among themselves), gave testimony to their community that they were themselves divided-- a testimony which dishonored the very Truth of God.

In citing his objections to their articles of division, he included not only their adherences to various men, but even the concept that I am of Christ.  What could possibly be wrong with claiming to belong to Christ?  In itself, nothing, BUT those who Paul was addressing were apparently excluding all others who were, in fact, Christ's own but who followed men's teachings such as those of Paul himself, Peter, Apollos...

The importance of what Paul is teaching is that, even though some believers may be following the examples and/or leadership of certain men, Christ cannot be divided.  This fact applies to Christ as Head over all things to the church and to the church itself, which is the Body of Christ. This being true, Paul is urging the saints to stop acting as if there were divisions, by enacting them among us, for God does not recognize them and neither, therefore, should we.

Put in simpler terms, the many and huge divisions that we see in what we view as the church of our Lord, simply do not exist in the true church as God sees it.  He sees the end from the beginning, looks upon the perfect completion of His beloved bride.  We cannot yet view that reality by sight, but we can acknowledge its existence by faith as we honor Him as our Head.

We are so prone to follow man that we will sell a car as a consequence for behavior in order to be accepted. We will patronize abusers so they won’t turn on us. We will join a mob in condemning the innocent so as to fit in. We justify our sin to our peers as a means of self-preservation.

The Lord Jesus said, “If you continue in My word then you are My disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.” Rather than continue in the word, know the truth and live by it, we remain in bondage to man. We are worried about what they may think, say, or do rather than what God thinks or wants.

Many have said that fellowshipping in the assembly meant following a man. That was probably true for some. But that isn’t just in the assembly, it is anywhere that we fear to stand for truth. It may be in a social setting where a vulgar joke is told. Everyone is laughing so we laugh along so as to not be conspicuous. It may be on a bulletin board where an aggressor’s behavior is sin but out of fear of man we remain silent.

Fellowship with real believers who love the Lord and stand for truth is the only safe place to be. Man followers will always turn on you. They can’t be trusted. How do you find real believers who stand for truth? Stand for truth and they will stand with you. Follow man and man pleasers will stab you in the back.

Those are the axioms of life. Abudant life comes from the Lord, death comes from man. It isn't complicated but it takes a regenerated life that abides in Christ to walk in the freedom of the truth.

Most of your views of human nature, as stated above, are much like my own, Bob.  To your question, "How do you find real believers who stand for truth?" my answer varies slightly, but significantly I think, from your own:  Stand with Christ alone (in all He stands fo)r, and you will never have to question the sincerity of others because He will direct your paths, He will grant you wisdom to see what needs to be seen, when and how it needs to be seen, and He will deliver you from evil.  Axioms may be useful tools, but they are not Christ.  Christ Himself in the scriptures and in the Spirit is all we need-- our only absolute Essential.

Your comments are most genuinely appreciated.  I will further address Sondra's thoughts in another post...

In Christ,
al

[Eulaha L. Long]

This thread has certainly taken an interesting turn.

The reason I didn't leave the Assembly sooner than I did was because I honestly believed it would offend God...at least that's what had been reinforced in my thinking by the lb's and the head stewards of the various homes I lived in.  I would have left the group day one if I had known what direction my life would go in.

But...I am glad I went through that experience, because I wouldn't be where I am today.  I am a much stronger young woman, more assertive, more alert, more devoted to my God.  I have made lifelong friends with the very people who shared that Assembly experience with me.  The Assembly was like a 40-year wilderness experience...I came out a victor!

[moonflower2]

Ok, Jan, I won't bite, but I will nibble a bit on this post.  You've been trying to mock and ridicule me, but God must have given me grace because I've found your stuff rather humorous....all of that camel and worm stuff....it got to be rather funny.  I've even lol a few times.

Glad you enjoyed the mirror checks.

Ok, "Some of us?!"  What do you mean by this question? 
Sondra

All Mirror checks, SJ

[al Hartman]

Al tends to think that no one knows who that person is you spoke of.  People know.  I could make one phone call and know.    Everybody knew who and what everyone else was doing in the assembly days.  Again, mentioning names would further injure and offend, but the other side of the story would be good to hear. 

Sondra, I omitted the first paragraph of your post because it was addressed to Joe & I believe he has already answered it.  In the above paragraph you state, re: Joe's car story: "I could make one phone call and know."  Since Joe has already explained why he doesn't want to expound upon it further, and you seem to be the only one on this board who insists on having the whole story so you can "make a judgment" about something which is completely unrelated to Joe's point, why don't you just make the phone call & find out whatever it is you want to find out?

Do you hope to badger Joe into doing something he doesn't want to do, so that he can thereby cleanse his soul?

Judgments are made based on those kind of half stories.  False judgments.  This is my concern in the matter.  These kinds of complaints have been made...people have been characterized as abusive, fat, ugly, of ill motive, unfair, mean, rude, judgmental, lawkeepers, etc. by stating the one side of the story with intense bias, IMO.  It would seem to me that the accountability factor comes into play. 

People will make their judgments no matter how little or how much information is available, and some of those judgments will be wrong, possibly most of them.  That's why our Lord said "Judge not, lest you be judged," and "By what measure you mete, so shall it be measured unto you."  We are each accountable to Him for our judgments, and each will reap according as we sow.  Shepherds may guide, urge, even prod the sheep in better ways, but are not to (brow)beat them into submission.

Joe's telling had no smattering of "intense bias"-- that concept has arisen, if at all, from the ensuing commentary upon it.

Al states that it is a free country.  I heard recently that freedom isn't free.  I think that is true spiritually too.  We need to own our words.  This doesn't suggest a "code" of silence.  It simply acknowledges what James teaches us that a little moves and effects a lot.

I don't recall making such a statement about the country.  My references to your freedom were regarding the freedom that the redeemed have in Christ, and the freedom allowed by this board for expression.

The patriotic phrase "Freedom isn't free" (which has been around since at least post-WW2 days) refers to the idea that the freedoms enjoyed by residents of the USA were purchased by the blood, sweat, tears and lives of those who fought for their country.

The same IS true spiritually, as you suggest above.  Our spiritual freedom was purchased at the unspeakably great and precious cost of the blood of Christ, once and for all, shed in place of our own.  What He suffered was so that we do not have to suffer it.  We are crucified with Christ, but never for Him nor for ourselves nor for others.  When we present ourselves to Him, it is to be as a living sacrifice.

Many people have been injured who were already injured.  God will no doubt use it for good as he has in your life and mine, but I personally don't think it is helpful for people to slant and/or shorten stories to fit their offenses without corroborating information.

I'm not sure whose offenses you refer to above, or if you may have meant to use a different word, but the operative word in the paragraph is "personally."  The concept is 100% valid, as I see it:  Each of us answers personally to the Lord for our thoughts, words and deeds.  What you or I think personally is what we should do, and what others think personally is what they should do, and we should all pray fervently for ourselves and for each other, that God will keep us safe from devices of our own making and teach us to know and to do His good will.

A public forum is powerful.  And some people who read them love to "get the dirt" and aren't interested in the setting, the circumstances surrounding the situation, etc.  I am interested in the whole story, however....leaving out perhaps real personal, embarrassing stuff.  But I think we should be as careful to omit the embarrassing stuff of others as we are to omit ours, don't you?

In the case of Joe's story, a simple illustration about forgiveness was the point-- it is the details of the story which he omitted that compose "the dirt" to which you refer.  Joe sometimes embarrasses somewhat easily, but he doesn't hold back from embarrassing himself when he feels the truth is of greater value than his feelings.  In the case of the now infamous car story, he didn't embarrass anyone except himself, which was precisely his point in omitting the details.

We all did and said things that were really stupid.  We hurt each other.  Some were promoted to places of leadership and were as stupid as the rest of us.  We weren't really stupid, just naive as to what right was.  A case could be made, I think, that we didn't really know the Spirit of the Lord.  We had a lot of Bible, but from a perspective of obedience to the letter of the law instead of a perspective of learning to hear God ourselves.  The latter causes people to leave "the letter" fellowships.  Edited sentence.Doctrine is good, but doctrine that is put ahead of an inner relationship with God is hurts people....always has...always will.  So, people grow up through pain.   

This is my story and I'm sticking to it.   

Sondra

I have red-lettered above what I consider to be an excellent short analysis of the situation in the assembly machine.  At the end of the red lettering I would change the sentence ending to say "...of George Geftakys."  The Bible was not taught so much as mis-taught, being used to reinforce one man's ideas of how things should be, and enforced by those who he favored with special position and privilege.

The "we are of the letter" and "we are of the Spirit" camps are as devisive as the factions Paul addresses in 1Cor.1, or the Arminius/Calvin disputes, and as meaningless.

The Bible is useless to anyone without the eye-opening work of the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit never teaches anything contradictory to the Word of God.

Personally, I have no dispute with the beliefs of Calvinists or Arminianists, although I think that the extremists in either camp miss the mark by a long shot.  Only rarely have I met anyone willing to discuss these doctrines with an open heart and mind, without agenda, wanting only to learn more of Christ in order to better please Him.  Such discussions are unbounded joy!  All others are at best veiled arguments and, at worst, open hostility-- total wastes of time.

Our minds need be firmly made up on but one thing: Jesus Christ the Same, yesterday, today, forever.  He is the Fountain from which all else good springs.  Attend wholly to Him, and we shall want for nothing. Ever.  I believe this, please pray with me that I will learn it.

In Christ,
al

[M2]

Hi Sondra,

I would like to tell you the story about a new spec house I was going to build in St. Louis sometime.  That one might make your hair curl.  A brother who was going to do the carpentry work tried to tell me what kind of house I should build, etc.  It got down to having to hear his rebuke over breakfast.  While I sobbed in my oatmeal he instructed me that I was a lover of money....It was a mess and he later apologized because GG got all over him.  I'm leaving out details, but happy to give them since I brought up the story.  There's two sides to every story.  Even then, many stories when fully disclosed show that someone was particularly cruel and/or abusive.  Sometimes though, we see things differently than we did with only the one side being told.

I believe you told this story to illustrate the point that there are 2 sides to every story.  I do not believe that you told it because you are bitter at the LB who wanted to control your life, and then GG intervened.  Even though you have forgiven the LB, you told the story anyway.

In most cases many are telling their stories for similar reasons, ie to illustrate a point.   The point for the sories told on the BB and the website is to demonstrate that there was something drastically wrong with the assembly system.  If the person telling the story is bitter, then, yes, we trust and hope that he/she will find healing from the bitterness, but it does not take away from the facts of the story.

We all did and said things that were really stupid.  We hurt each other.  Some were promoted to places of leadership and were as stupid as the rest of us.  We weren't really stupid, just naive as to what right was.  A case could be made, I think, that we didn't really know the Spirit of the Lord.  We had a lot of Bible, but from a perspective of obedience to the letter of the law instead of a perspective of learning to hear God ourselves.  The latter causes people to leave "the letter" fellowships.  Edited sentence.Doctrine is good, but doctrine that is put ahead of an inner relationship with God is hurts people....always has...always will.  So, people grow up through pain.

Sondra, you make a good point here, and have capsulized quite nicely what many of us have been saying on this BB for quite a while now.

Herein lies the ability to add 2 + 2 and come up with the correct answer.  When I read Kristin's story, I was totally amazed that an well respected assembly elder could not add 2 + 2.  Why did the elder put 2 and 2 together and come up with 'preserve the testimony'.  We are talking about an elder here.  What went so drastically wrong that it took a non-LB to actually finally believe Kristin and take action?

For years before the assembly collapsed I would comment to my husband that the leaders and workers were not following the Spirit of Christ.  When the announcements were given, on of the LBs presented them as a sales-pitch do-it-or-else....  Another announcer presented them as a 'the show must go on' ....  This and other things kept us "naive" and hindered us from growing up in Christ.

I have a comment about GG's intervention, but will have to post that later.

God bless,
Marcia

[al Hartman]

My posts on this thread have pretty much been in response to the posts of others.  Now I would like to share my thoughts concerning all that has happened on this board since Sondra rejoined us:

My intentions here are positive, not intended to be perceived as anti- anything or anyone.

Personally, I have been treated with respect and love for the most part in all these discussions.  I allow for the emotional flareups of others and do not generally worry about receiving apologies.  This doesn't make me special-- it's just the place I've presently come to in my journey...

In the exchanging of ideas, I have learned more about myself-- a perpetual goal, secondary to learning more of Christ.  I have learned that my sense of humor sometimes entertains only me -- no one else is amused, including my Lord.  Other times it works as it should, as a blessing.  It's my job to subject my desire to yuk it up to the Lord's scrutiny & do my best to speak unto His glory and the edification of others, be it humor or otherwise.  I owe this new, greater awareness primarily to Sondra's posts.

Sondra, I don't agree with some of your emphases, while I also do very strongly agree with some of your thoughts.  I appreciate your willingness to discuss things openly, although I think you limit your openness on some matters.  I'm sure I do the same, although I try, and wish, not to.

I have some very clear-cut ideas about most of the regular posters here, but they are just my finite and extremely limited and narrow opinions.  I try to not let them influence my onboard relationships.  We are united in Christ if we have heard His voice and answered Him with Yes, Lord, and I have no desire to trample on that kinship with my paltry prejudices.  For that reason I tend not to post my opinions of others, nor even to dwell on them in my own mind.  My preconceptions regarding others has never served me to any good purpose, while I am learning that my active trusting in Christ allows me both wonderful fellowship with those who I might have rejected, and ample warning when someone is up to no good.

In its early days, this board hosted much bitterness, sarcasm and ill will.  In my early days here, and much more recently than I wish were the case, I have contributed my share of the same.  Witnessing Verne's and Sondra's posts and those of others has convinced me of the folly and outright destructiveness that I may have introduced-- and even if not that, how my self-centered postings have dishonored the name of Christ.

No one except God Himself can humble a person, and He does not humble His children, but exhorts us to humble ourselves under His mighty hand, so that He may exalt us in the time and in the manner of His choosing.  These discussions have been useful in further teaching me the need to humble myself before Him.  For this I am grateful to our Lord, and thank you all for your participation.

In Christ,
al

[al Hartman]

   ...I think Al will cream me again...

   ...He (not al ) took me to lunch and apologized profusely and I accepted.  He called himself "Stupid" and that always works for me.   

sj

Sondra, I am only aware of having stated my opinions, some of which agreed with yours, and more of which did not.

I am not aware of having "creamed" you-- if it seemed I did, it was unintentional, but I apologize for even projecting the appearance of having intended you ill.  Profusely.  It was stupid of me.

In Christ,
al

P.S.-- Let me know next time you'll be in central Ohio & I'll take you to lunch!

[Joe Sperling]

Sondra---

I never said "she made me sell my car". Nor was I told to sell the car due to "bad driving"(that's actually quite funny).    It was a choice I was given by a leading brother
for my having said "no" to another house leader's wife. It's amazing how you pick me
apart for telling a "partial" story, but then in the same post do the same thing. But it's
OK when you do it. You mention one-sided stories--well, we have to take at face value
what you are sharing with us about the house--we have to believe YOU because you
are telling us these things. No matter how little you share, or if you did the opposite and
shared massive details, we still have to accept and believe what you are sharing with us.

I have no reason to disbelieve you. Do I want to question the abuse that was given to
you? Do I want to even suggest it might not be true? Why should I? Why would you
want to share something that is untrue, especially before the Lord's people on this board?

Would I want to come to the board and share something untrue about past abuse? I'm
the only one who experienced what I shared. What I shared is the absolute truth--I was given a
choice of selling my car or staying in the Brother's house because I said "no" to a leading
brother's wife about something concerning my own car. I wound up selling the car so I
could remain in the house. Either you believe me or you don't. If you don't believe me
now you won't even if I give the strictest of details, because it is set in your mind that no
such abuse took place in the first place. I don't know what details you are looking for---names,
dates, receipts for sale of the car? You mentioned in small detail what happened to you
and your crying at breakfast--that's enough for me--I believe you--I've seen Assembly abuse
in my own life and in the lives of many others, so I have no reason to doubt.
Why should my story be considered any different? Why is my story being questioned by you
in the first place? I've been on the board for a long time and I am not a liar. I mainly joke
around, but when I do share something from my past it is the absolute truth.

But if you want more I will do it. In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Word of God,
son of the Everlasting Lord Jehovah, and in front of the Almighty and loving Holy Spirit of
God---Blessed Trinity, Most holy, whose eyes scan the whole earth and know each man's
heart I swear I was made to sell my car for saying "no" to someone in Leadership concerning
what to do with that same car. I was given a choice to sell the car or stay in the home. Being
so afraid of offending God by leaving "his place" I sold the car, even though I KNEW in my heart
this just could not be right. I swear I was given additional stewardships, was made to apologize
in front of all the brothers for my "sin" of saying "no" to a sister, and was told afterwards "apologize
with more feeling and sincerity next time would you?" I swear when asked to sell the car I said "The Lord require it of you" and was given the extra stewardships for saying this. If this isn't enough to
believe these things happened then I don't know what else to say. They profoundly affected my
life for years--but as I have said, The Lord brought me to a place where I could forgive, and where  I could also ask forgiveness of any I may also have offended. I swear before God the aforementioned
statements are all true--not according to emotion or perspective, but according to fact.

--Joe

[vernecarty]

But if you want more I will do it. In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Word of God,
son of the Everlasting Lord Jehovah, and in front of the Almighty and loving Holy Spirit of
God---Blessed Trinity, Most holy, whose eyes scan the whole earth and know each man's
heart I swear I was made to sell my car for saying "no" to someone in Leadership concerning
what to do with that same car.--Joe

Don't let the conduct of others lead you to error.

 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.  But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.   
Matthew 5: 36,37

If I have learned anything on this BB, that is it. Your word is good enough for most here Joe...
Verne

[Joe Sperling]

Verne---

You're absolutely right. I felt my integrity was being questioned, and felt "If I have to
swear to God in front of everyone that these things are true I will". I should not have
allowed myself to be driven to such a conclusion.

I just need to realize  how much the Assembly has done for me. I have been deceived
for so long. There was no abuse. I just "perceived" it as abuse at the time. it was actually
quite good for me, and I am very thankful I experienced it. I need to sit down and write
George a letter of thanks for providing an atmosphere that wound up doing so much good
for me. I think I took the car thing a little too personally--it really was nothing. Yes, yes,
I swore to God that it happened, and it did,  but perhaps I just blew it all way out of proportion,
or perceived it as abuse when the whole thing was really on me.

I have to stop telling my "half-truths" because others know better what happened to me than
I actually do myself. I need to recognize this and thank the people who have so recently been
so enlightening concerning the past and my perception of it. My Assembly years were actually
"golden years", I just haven't  realized it yet. On another thread I mentioned a "lovefest for the
Assembly" going on recently. These words were misplaced. Tonight, I'm going to go back to
my old Assembly journals, filled with "Cycles of Devotion" and other wonderful notes, and bask
in the entries filled with trying trying trying. All this trying was actually quite beneficial in the
long run, and has led to my present appreciation of those grand old days. What I wouldn't give
to be sitting in a Seminar right now, or listening to a Tape Study for that matter, or vacuuming
at five in the morning. Geez how I miss those glorious days!!


The light has dawned,  I know where my lack is
I've forgotten the blessedness of Geftakys
The meetings, the stewardships, the exhortations
I wish these were my daily rations.

Being talked down to by a red-faced angry brother
Is a secret blessing like no other
And preparing next day's dinner by a bright lit moon
These things are like a soothing tune.

Five or six meetings, maybe even seven
Please let me return to my Assembly heaven.


--Joe