Re: The Mustard Tree Churches and other elitisms

[Sebastian Andrew]

Greetings everyone:
It is common knowledge that the Geftakys group has borrowed much from the Plymouth Brethren.
Could someone with a PB background elaborate on the origin of this teaching (the mustard tree churches), the scriptural argument used , and the practical outworking of it in terms of how other churches (Christians, ministries) are viewed, etc?
Sebastian Andrew

[Oscar]

Sebastian,
I would like to give an extensive response to this one, but time is always an issue.
In brief, the mustard tree church idea is a popular interpretation of the parable of Matthew 13 by many evangelical scholars, not just PB's.  The idea is that the tiny seed planted by the gospel grows into some unnatural freak organization.
The difference is is that evangelicals tend to interpret it to mean a great apostate church at the end times, or sometimes the Catholic Church.
PB's and their clones tend to see it as any "man made system".  (The assembly is not a man made system?).  They are claiming to be the true church, so everyone else is part of the the "Big Tree Church".  
This flows out of the PB practice of reading a whole lot into parables that isn't stated.
1. The mustard plant is a big shrub, not a tree at all, and the greek text doesn't call it a tree.
2. Birds don't really always mean demons in the Bible.
   "As the demons flying, the Lord defends Jerusalem"?
   "Behold the demons of the air...your heavenly Father feedeth   them"?
3. Just where is ANY local church mentioned in this parable?

So work needs to be done on just exactly what it does mean.  Parables take a VERY common fact and draw a spiritual application or lesson from it.  It is supposed to be obvious, something everyone understands.  Getting into the nits and lice of the details is called by theologians, "making the parable walk on all fours".  This is considered by most to be an innacurate method of interpretation.

One problem we face is that we have never seen many of the then common events the parables are drawn from.  Ever see anyone sow a field by hand?  Ever see an ox kick against the goads?  When I was in Turkey I saw flocks of sheep become mixed together, and heard shepherds calls to separate them.
So...I always hold my interpretations of this parable, and others, with a light grip.

I used to crack up at GG's teaching on the wise and foolish virgins.  He used it to scare the sheep to greater effort and devotion, lest they be foolish virgins and not go the marriage feast.  Did you ever notice that the behavior of all the virgins is identical?  It's not about effort at all.  They are ALL sleeping when the bridegroom comes.
I think it was a message to the jews that Moses' religion was not enough, that you need the Spirit. It has nothing at all to do with the rapture.

God bless,
Tom Maddux

[editor]

HI Tom

Yes indeed.  Thank you for that post.
I never thought about how God feeds the bird of the air.  If we use the "key" that birds are demons, then God is feeding demons!

Thank you!  I have debunked alot of the stuff I learned over the years, but everything helps.

Brent

[outdeep]

I wanted to add my in my two cents for no other reason than to put this thread on the "recent posts" lists so more people will have opportunity to read Tom's excellent post on the use of parables.

Why is it that many of the strange perspectives we had seemed so scriptural?  Often because we bought into dubious groundrules in our approach to interpreting the Bible.

Read Tom's post.  For more information on this subject, I highly recommend the book "How to Read the Bible for all its Worth" by Gordon Fee.  It has a great chapter on the use of Parables as well as dealing with historical narratives, the book of Acts, prophecy, the law, Revelation and other writing styles incorporated in God's word.

OK.  End of commercial.  Back to discussionon "The Mustard Tree Churches".

[Mark C.]

Dave,
  Great minds think alike!
      In my last post (re. finding a good church) I mention that same book and what a help it was to me.
            The Spirit was leading the Ministry!
                                          God Bless,  Mark C.

[Sebastian Andrew]

Tom:
I forgot to say thanks for the excellent response! I knew that you would respond but didn't want to bug you directly .

Mr. Sable:
As far as you know the G. Fee book is still in print?

[Joseph Reisinger]

Tom,
I was just reading Matthew 25, and I remembered a post of yours, which I will quote here...

I used to crack up at GG's teaching on the wise and foolish virgins.  He used it to scare the sheep to greater effort and devotion, lest they be foolish virgins and not go the marriage feast.  Did you ever notice that the behavior of all the virgins is identical?  It's not about effort at all.  They are ALL sleeping when the bridegroom comes.
I think it was a message to the jews that Moses' religion was not enough, that you need the Spirit. It has nothing at all to do with the rapture.

God bless,
Tom Maddux

I was wondering.. why do you think this could have nothing to do with the rapture, and instead has to do with having the Spirit as opposed to Moses' religion?  It says in vs.8 that "the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out."  The way I would plainly read it, is that all of the virgins had oil before, but some (the foolish) did not have enough.
Also, I see that vs 13 gives the message of the parable, namely "watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh."  How would I not take this passage as being a call for us as Christians to watch?  I myself do not take this as being a call to some great effort.. but rather a seriousness about the christian life, and a watching for his coming.
I certainly wouldn't think it impossible to be talking about the rapture.. at least from the way I read it.. it certainly speaks of the sudden coming of Christ.  
I also see, that the physical sleep of the virgins, only speaks of the fact that "noone knows the day nor the hour", but that the wise versions were spiritually ready.. (hence the supply of oil for their lamps)

What do you think about this interpretation of the passage?  It seems to be the plainest way to take it.

[editor]

Hello, my name is Brent Tr0ckman, and I am a Mustard Tree Churcher...

at least I think some would say so.

I attend Calvary Chapel in SLO.  The presence of God is quite evident in this church, so I guess the Holy Spirit also attends a Mustard Tree Church, at least for the last nine years, since Calvary Chapel SLO was started in a house.

One thing that our church believes and practices, is that the people are the church, not the program, and certainly not the building.  For that reason, the church meets in homes, in various places and sundry times during the week. In these home churches, we worship freely, pray, fellowship and teach the word of God.  

This is the church. Sunday is when the church (churches) comes together, but the church (churches) are the people, not the meeting.

The idea of a super-church, where the members are spectators is revolting to me.  I would not belong to such a place, unless I had no other option.   Thankfully, I have the freedom and liberty to have the church which is in the Tr0ckman's home.

Here at our house, we practice Acts 2:42 on Wednesdays.  You are all welcome to attend.  We have open prayer, worship, and 2 or three brothers teach.  Sound familiar?

Brent

[Oscar]

Brent,

In debate, a common tactic is to employ the logical fallacy of attacking a "straw man".  

The idea is to misrepresent your opponent's position and then blast the straw man to pieces, which is easy to do, since it is insubstantial.

Name calling, such as that  employed by sectarian groups wishing to discredit Christians not under their control, is one way of setting up a straw man.  The group you wish to contrast your "One True Church" with is labeled, worldly, carnal, compromising, backslidden, or as now, a mustard tree church.  

The fact that wherever there are people there are human problems is seen as "proof" of the fallen state of the group. The idea that the Church is a place for the healing of sick souls in completely foreign to the sectarian's thinking.

Deviant behavior is absolutely not allowed in the high control sects, at least not publicly.  People who do not  meet the strict standards of the sect are either asked to leave or they learn to hide it.  The TV goes into the bedroom closet.
Other things could be mentioned as well, could they not?


Groups with a high control level usually don't grow very large because they have very strict requirements for the members and most people either stay away or leave after a fairly short while.

Assembly members can verify this by simply getting out old seminar pictures and count the number of people who have left.  

Thomas Maddux,
(Happily attending First Evangelical Mustard Tree Church of Fullerton)

[Oscar]

Joseph Reisinger said,

"I was wondering.. why do you think this could have nothing to do with the rapture, and instead has to do with having the Spirit as opposed to Moses' religion?  It says in vs.8 that "the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out."  The way I would plainly read it, is that all of the virgins had oil before, but some (the foolish) did not have enough.
Also, I see that vs 13 gives the message of the parable, namely "watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh."  How would I not take this passage as being a call for us as Christians to watch?  I myself do not take this as being a call to some great effort.. but rather a seriousness about the christian life, and a watching for his coming.
I certainly wouldn't think it impossible to be talking about the rapture.. at least from the way I read it.. it certainly speaks of the sudden coming of Christ.  
I also see, that the physical sleep of the virgins, only speaks of the fact that "noone knows the day nor the hour", but that the wise versions were spiritually ready.. (hence the supply of oil for their lamps)"

Joseph,

There are several reasons that I have never thought of this as an exhortation to Christians to watch for the Lord's coming.  For ease in reading, I will list a few.

1. A very important interpretive principle is to always ask the question, "What did the author wish the original hearers to understand?" This message was delivered to people who had no understanding of a rapture.  Matthew 23-25 was delivered publicly to the Jewish multitudes and to Christ's Jewish disciples.  The New Testament was in the future.  Much revelation was yet to be given.  To give exhortations about a attaining a rapture to people who had never heard of one is to make Christ's ministry ludicrous.

2. The scene here is earthly, not heavenly.  

3. The raptured Church will be the Bride of Christ.
This is talking about 10 virgins, not one.  In Psalm 45 13-15 we read, "The kings daughter is all glorious within; Her clothing is interwoven with gold.  She will be led to the King in embroidered work;  The virgins her companions who follow her, will be brought to Thee.  The will be led forth with gladness and rejoicing;  They will enter into the King's palace."

This Psalm was known to the Jews of Christ's time.  Remember, parables and the like use familiar images to teach some lesson.

4. Each INDIVIDUAL was expected to have oil.  They all had it to start with.  (I think we agree that oil is a symbol of the Holy Spirit)   The foolish had had oil, for their torches were going out.  It has to be lit before going out, right?   To me, this speaks of the waning of the Old Covenant, the end of the old economy, in preparation of the new.

5. The wise virgins had flasks along with their torches, (the greek word here means torch, not lamp, see W.E. Vine)
This might speak of the gift of the Holy Spirit needed by these Old Covenant believers.  Remember the promise of Acts 2:38-39, given to the Jewish believers by Peter.

6.  My point about the conduct stands.  Remember, I was talking about GG's attempt to use this to stir us up to greater effort.   They were all acting exactly the same.  The difference was in what they possessed, not in what they did.

7. One needs to establish that a passage speaks of an event before claiming that it does.  Nothing is said about being caught up, translated, or anything of the sort.  The foolish virgins certainly have access to the doorway of the location of the wedding feast.  El Al (the Israeli airline) had not been founded yet, so it must be an earthly scene.  (attempt at joke)

8. The foolish virgins are rebuffed with the words, "I never knew you."  Speaking to Jews, Jesus said, "He calls his own sheep by name, and leads them out."  (John 10:3)  He also said, "I am the good shepherd, I know my sheep and am known of mine."  (John 10:14).
That is another reason why I think that these are Jews who refused to believe in their Messiah and recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit.


Could I be wrong? Of course I could.  But I don't think my points are insubstantial.

God bless,
Thomas Maddux

[editor]

Tom and others:

I tend to agree with the Mustard Tree idea, even if I don't agree with the interpretation of the parable.  I can't imagine attending a place where you never get to meet the "pastor," because there are 30000 people in attendance.  That seems a little too big to practice "Life Together."

However, the wonderful thing is that many of these churches, like mine, are not about the big meeting on Sunday, but about the many other things that go on the other days of the week.

At Calvary, we look at it like Sunday is a time of praise, and teaching, and VISITORS!  Lots of em.  Hopefully, these visitors will get, "plugged in," in one of the Home groups, where they can grow and develop into vibrant servants of God, not spectators.

The model seems to work at present.  4 people nine years ago, to about 1200 now.  Absolutely chock full of amazing testimonies of God's power.

These are the folks who have been lifting up this website in prayer since its inception, and they have prayed for Suzie and i since they met us, almost three years ago.  If this is what it's like in a Mustard Tree, I want a tree house.

Brent