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Author Topic: The Bible Code  (Read 41416 times)
vernecarty
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« Reply #45 on: March 10, 2005, 12:13:27 am »

Verne and others,

I read this book back around '97 or '98 and found it fascinating. However, I kept thinking to myself while reading it that this could be a complete hoax, and I wouldn't know it. I tend to read things like this very critically as I can tell some of you do to. Kinda reminded me of one of those great urban legends that sound believable but aren't true. Still don't know what to make of it. Guess I'd have to see the algorithm myself and give it a run. If I happened to find something, then I'd be really creeped out though.

Bob.
Pretty much my own view. You would really have to run the thing to be certain.
Lots of ELS work on other literature has been done with, to say the least, ambiguous results.
Some critcs also say that not every version of the OT yields statistically significant results. Who knows?
Verne

p.s.
Tell me you are kidding about the  backwash into the communion cup!
That was a disgusting practice...I think I am going to be sick just thinking about it...


« Last Edit: March 10, 2005, 02:09:49 am by VerneCarty » Logged
al Hartman
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« Reply #46 on: March 10, 2005, 07:06:16 am »



OK, Verne-- I take it that you're reluctant to acknowledge that I actually cracked the MR. GEORGE GEFTAKYS CODE without any help from Drosnin's book, but I ask you:  why did you think they're called algorithms?

Tell me you are kidding about the  backwash into the communion cup!
That was a disgusting practice...I think I am going to be sick just thinking about it...

It was just an assembly spin on transubstantiation:  the bread becoming flotsam.
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vernecarty
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« Reply #47 on: March 10, 2005, 08:20:23 am »



It was just an assembly spin on transubstantiation:  

Surely you mean assembly sputum on transubstantiation...?
Verne
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al Hartman
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« Reply #48 on: March 10, 2005, 08:43:12 am »



Surely you mean assembly sputum on transubstantiation...?
Verne

Um, yeah, I guess I did... Tongue

Bob,

Did they start using a moustache cup eventually, to act as a sort of strainer? Lips sealed
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moonflower2
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« Reply #49 on: March 10, 2005, 10:35:21 am »

Here is the real skinny:



The original paper on the subject is entitled:

Equidistant Letter Sequences in the Book of Genesis.

You probably can't get a copy of it now...
Verne


Is this it?

http://www.torahcodes.co.il/wrr1/wrr1.htm#Appendix


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vernecarty
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« Reply #50 on: March 10, 2005, 08:04:14 pm »

Is this it?

http://www.torahcodes.co.il/wrr1/wrr1.htm#Appendix


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Yes it is. I AM impressed...!  Smiley  Smiley  Smiley
Verne
p.s. I did not know that Statistical Science was available online Moonflower...thank you!!!
p.p.s Hey Al, what was that you said about "talking down" to BB readers??
They are smarter than you think buddy... Smiley
« Last Edit: March 10, 2005, 10:59:00 pm by VerneCarty » Logged
vernecarty
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« Reply #51 on: March 10, 2005, 08:51:49 pm »

The Templeton Prize, awarded for "Progress Toward Research or Discoveries about Spiritual Realities" has been won by Nobel Laureate Charles Townes ( inventor of the maser and laser).
I really like this guy. He is someone Christians should know.
Pray for his clear salvation. I think he is quite close.   Smiley
Verne
« Last Edit: March 10, 2005, 08:54:15 pm by VerneCarty » Logged
moonflower2
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« Reply #52 on: March 10, 2005, 11:36:28 pm »

Yes it is. I AM impressed...!  Smiley  Smiley  Smiley
Verne
p.s. I did not know that Statistical Science was available online Moonflower...thank you!!!
p.p.s Hey Al, what was that you said about "talking down" to BB readers??
They are smarter than you think buddy... Smiley

 Grin I tend to have a "blond" look while I'm thinking, so I'm glad at least you are impressed.  Smiley It's surprising what a search on "Equidistant Letter Sequences in the Book of Genesis" can do.  Wink

However, I do find math, algebra and statistics extremely interesting.

I was thinking that since there are a few names encoded,and if the codes are legit) that there are probably more names encoded. Why not? What would limit that?

« Last Edit: March 10, 2005, 11:43:44 pm by moonflower2 » Logged
kdk4443
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« Reply #53 on: March 12, 2005, 09:54:04 am »

Jewish scribes have long been aware that there is an incredible mathematical symmetry to the Hebrew scriptures that attest to their divine orgin. It is something that the casual reader of the Scriptures will miss completely but is nonetheless there for those who have eyes to see. I remember how astonished I was when it was first pointed out to me that Psalm 119, one of my favorite passages in the Bible, consistently followed the symmetric pattern of each verse of the 22 octets beginning with the subsequent letter of the Hebrew alphabet. There are other interesting patterns.
If you take the first Hebrew letter in Genesis, skip 49 and then take the next letter, then repeat the skip sequence, then every four letters spells Torh (the Hebrew word pronounced 'Torah', meaning 'The Law of God').
This holds all the way through the first two books of the Bible, Genesis and Exodus. When you get to the middle book of the five, Leviticus, it stops. However, when you do the same skip sequence for Deuteronomy and the Book of Numbers, it spells Hrot, which is Torh backwards.
In the book, Leviticus, use the skip sequence again this time skipping every seven letters, and it spells YHWH (pronounced YAWEH). Which is the Hebrew name for God!
So we have every 49 letters in Genesis and Exodus spelling 'The Law of God' and pointing to Leviticus, and every 49 letters of Deuteronomy and Numbers spelling 'The Law of God' backwards and pointing to Leviticus. Every seven letters in this book spells YAWH; the name of God himself.
Michael Drosnin who wrote the book “The Bible Code” has made some very interesting findiings. So much for “dynamic equivalency” huh?
Has anyone read it?
Verne


perhaps I am late in the conversation...  perhaps I missed something.
But speaking about the skip 49 for torh, skip 7 for YHWH, skip 49 for hrot....  has anybody seen a site or a source that can quote the valid statistical possibility of this?  and this code in particular?  To say nothing of finding sentences and phrases randomly- which seems bogus with the research I was able to find..... BUT  I cant find any refutation AT ALL of the TORH skip occurence?  Any help?  I mean, this seems like a big deal to me! no?
 And did you ever get to count those numbers on your own?
thanks
  Kevin- student of the bible
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vernecarty
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« Reply #54 on: March 12, 2005, 05:02:32 pm »

perhaps I am late in the conversation...  perhaps I missed something.
But speaking about the skip 49 for torh, skip 7 for YHWH, skip 49 for hrot....  has anybody seen a site or a source that can quote the valid statistical possibility of this?  and this code in particular?  To say nothing of finding sentences and phrases randomly- which seems bogus with the research I was able to find..... BUT  I cant find any refutation AT ALL of the TORH skip occurence?  Any help?  I mean, this seems like a big deal to me! no?
 And did you ever get to count those numbers on your own?
thanks
  Kevin- student of the bible

A few posters on the thread have given helpful links, incluidng one to the original paper in Statistical Science.
Although the first formal reporting of the code took place around 1958 by a Jewish Rabbi, that the Scriptures carried far more than a mere litereary significance has always been presumed by the Jewish people and the Scribes in particular.
The Holy Scriptures would be handled with great reverence, and no ancient document was reproduced with greater fastidiousness.
One error on a page resulted in the entire page being redone.
Two errors meant the entire work was scrapped and restarted.
Each time the name of God was encouuntered, the Scribe would burn his pen and change his clothes.
By comparison, I get the impression that even some so-called Christians hold the Word of God in little more than thinly disguised contempt.
So far as I know, there is nothing in the internal witness of the Scriptures that militate against the possibility of the code's existence. In fact the Scripture is replete with suggestions the the Word of God has far greater depth and mystery than unaided human ability can fully plumb. The Psalmist beseeches God that He would open up his eyes, that he might "behold wondrous things out of Thy law"
The letter predicting Rabin's assassinaton is a documented fact.
I have read the original publication on the study in Genesis and the paper was peer reviewed. It is solid statistics.
You will have to read the paper and Drosnin's book and draw your own conclusions.
Some other interesting studies on ELS have been done purporting to refute the findings of the original paper.
Most of the criticism I have read amount to little more than a knee-jerk reaction of the scientific community and which is entirely understandable. Most of these folk are hoplessly mired in a strictly mechanistic world-view of reality.
Verne

p.s Doron Witztum has published a new book in Hebrew in which he responds to his critics. You can get a copy of the Hebrew text he actually used here:

http://www.torahcodes.co.il/
« Last Edit: March 12, 2005, 05:23:00 pm by VerneCarty » Logged
kdk4443
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« Reply #55 on: March 12, 2005, 08:40:25 pm »

I would hesitate to bite on the bible codes. I do understand that we all come upon things with pre-understandings- and those lead us to be biased in one way or another.  "TORH" 49 skip code isnt a big deal... but why would God put it in?  The hidden messages are a bigger deal to me.  Why would a personal God hide mystical messages in a text meant to be taken literally (with hermeneutical rules allowing for figures speech and such though of course). ONce your outside these lines- I can make the bible say anything I want it to say!  and It seems Skip codes could theoreticaly find my name with "God" in the near vicinity of the grid- in the pentateuch...and so therefor I am He?  Again, I do have preunderstandings that give me a bias- we all do- it is important to figure out what those preunderstandings are and evaluate if they are correct.  hopefully I will have more information later next week.  I too have read the bible code and the reports.
And your description of the Jewish transmission techniques is accurate... more aptly applied to the Massoretes who date back to 500 AD.  though they were preceded by scribes using transmission ordinances described in the Torah, which are also very strict*.  Could flaws still occur?  yes.  Did they?  Dont know.  All we know is that there are small conflicts b/w the different texts we do have (all except the dead sea scrolls, date after 8th century).  The ancient jewish tradtion of burning all old manuscripts after copying is an interesting but unfortunate one.
 
http://www.answering-islam.org.uk/Religions/Numerics/report.html
http://cs.anu.edu.au/people/bdm/dilugim/index.html
http://www.themodernreligion.com/comparative/christ/bible_code.htm
http://www.skepdic.com/bibcode.html
http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/205.asp

*"how we got the bible" Neil R Lightfoot  pg 131
« Last Edit: March 12, 2005, 09:49:19 pm by kdk4443 » Logged
moonflower2
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« Reply #56 on: March 12, 2005, 11:28:05 pm »

What everyone wants to know, but is afraid to ask:  Grin
 


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Interesting questions, ja?
« Last Edit: March 12, 2005, 11:33:41 pm by moonflower2 » Logged
kdk4443
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« Reply #57 on: March 13, 2005, 03:46:31 am »

for those interested, this seems to be the most recent update of the McKay/Witztum debate- but is anti ELS...
no problem for me though! Wink
http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/StatSci/

kevin
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