Just Curious...

[al Hartman]

Just curious:

1.  Does anyone besides me think that the title "Out of Control Poster" casts a negative image?  Especially so as pertains to a moderator such as Tom M.

2.  In consideration of recent events on the board, should we drop the "Anything goes, no editing, no deleting" from our:
                                 

Any and All Topics
                                 Anything goes, no editing, no deleting
                                 Moderator: brian tucker

 ???al

[editor]

Just curious:

1.  Does anyone besides me think that the title "Out of Control Poster" casts a negative image?  Especially so as pertains to a moderator such as Tom M.

2.  In consideration of recent events on the board, should we drop the "Anything goes, no editing, no deleting" from our:
                                 
 ???al

My personal opinion on it is that "out of control Poster" keep us from taking ourselves too seriously.  Afterall, a strong case could be made that we spend too much time here....

Personally, I am against editing/deleting, in all but the most extreme cases.  I trust Tom and Mark to know when that may be.

I could care less about my image.  People who are concerned about their image bore me, frankly.  I like a person who isn't afraid to have ideas, state them, and act upon them.  I know who I am, and if others have a wrong idea, so be it.

Brent

[al Hartman]

I could care less about my image.  People who are concerned about their image bore me, frankly.  I like a person who isn't afraid to have ideas, state them, and act upon them.  I know who I am, and if others have a wrong idea, so be it.

Brent

Brent,

Not sure how you mean your last statement (above) to fit into the discussion.  The only image I'm concerned about is that of our Lord Jesus Christ, who we represent. 

Re: Q#1, I can see your point & hope it works in that way; in Q#2, I, too, trust our moderators' judgment, but if we say "Anything goes, no editing, no deleting" and then disallow, edit and delete, we have lied, so why not just stop saying it & thus remove any grounds for such a claim?  IMO adding the words, "except in the most extreme cases" would be too vague.

In Christ,
al

[M2]

Me-thinks you still have some of the Leading Brother left in your system eh Al?? 
I've noticed your comments on various threads and it gives me that impression.

Truth that cannot stand the test of criticism is not a truth worth holding on to.
I'm not saying to criticize for the sake of criticizing, but we are all adults here.

I do appreciate your sense of humor. It's nice to have good chuckle now and then.
Blessings,
Marcia

P.S.
We used to tease (Will Jones will remember this) a particular LB here in Ottawa.  When a long weekend was looming on the horizon and people were making their plans for a trip away from the sanctuary of the assembly, the LB would caution "There's a long weekend coming up saints.  Don't fall away from the Lord now."  Not exactly, but Will did this funny skit once; I missed it, but and I heard all about it.

Watched MIB II this evening (again).  We need one of the neutralizers.

Marcia

[al Hartman]

Me-thinks you still have some of the Leading Brother left in your system eh Al?? 
I've noticed your comments on various threads and it gives me that impression.

Marcia,

Assuredly yes, far more than I wish!   When I see it, I endeavor to deal with it.  But I don't always see it.  I have that uncanny (but scripturally verifiable) ability to look beyond the plank in my eye, directly at the speck in the eye of another.

General statements, such as yours above, help a little, as they are humbling and lead to earnest, seeking prayer.  But I would be indebted for specifics re: to which of my posts you refer, and what about them exhibits a wrong spirit.  Whether you post them or send them privately I leave to your discernment.  If you are uncomfortable in being more specific, I understand.  Above all else, I request your prayers and those of our readers that I will understand what I must do to be rid of wrong thinking and wrong speaking.

Truth that cannot stand the test of criticism is not a truth worth holding on to.
I'm not saying to criticize for the sake of criticizing, but we are all adults here.

I honestly don't understand your point in saying these things, which I read to be directed to me.  I suspect it is quite clear to others on the board.  Here again, I would appreciate your explanation if you wouldn't mind.  I do not ask so that I may contend with you or attempt to justify myself, but that I may understand and be healed.


I do appreciate being numbered among the adults, although sometimes I give myself cause to wonder...

Whatever you choose to do (BTW, the invitation is open to all), I thank you.

In Christ,
al

[lenore]

Just curious:

1.  Does anyone besides me think that the title "Out of Control Poster" casts a negative image?  Especially so as pertains to a moderator such as Tom M.

2.  In consideration of recent events on the board, should we drop the "Anything goes, no editing, no deleting" from our:
                                 
 ???al

March 7th:

Having been ill for the last week, where sitting at the computer screen was a viritually impossibility, I have missed the flow of conversations.

To answer you first question.  Does the title of OUT OF CONTROL POSTER have an negative .

No Al.  THE OLD CONTROL POSTER HAS NO NEGATIVE ASPECT.

Seriously. No... even if I wasnt try to tease you. 
Look at my numbers I have been only at this since May 5th 2004. 
This is a safe haven to verbally express your opinion, as far as I am concern, if we are not directly intentionally hurting another.  I enjoy coming here and having a place to write.
It is a place of Christian fellowship, a place to learn, a place to vent, a place to share and be encouraged. etc.

For the OLD part  well.........

Lenore

[editor]

Not sure how you mean your last statement (above) to fit into the discussion.  The only image I'm concerned about is that of our Lord Jesus Christ, who we represent. 

This statement is an example of why the title "out of control poster," is needed.  You take this, and yourself WAY, WAY too seriously.

Since you asked Marcia for specifics, I am going to assume that it's OK for me to offer some as well.

Jesus, if He were born into our age, would have been a guy who used power tools, sweated, and ate off the roach coach more often than not.  He was a carpenter, right?  He had sawdust in His hair, and smelled like sweat and dirt.  Furthermore, He must have heard plenty of choice language, as construction guys have always been that way.  People who do hard work, especially for those who would rather pay than sweat, have always had this kind of man's man attitude.  Have you ever spent any time on a job site with a framing crew? 

So, if you want to present a combed hair, mild speeched, image conscious Jesus, you will run into trouble.  He wasn't that sort of guy at all.  He knew how to use physical violence when needed, and He also verbally cursed the namby pamby image conscious pharisees.  He also stated opinions that were contrary to the conventional wisdom, and ridiculed His opposition at times.

Yes, He was also meek, lowly and compassionate, but that doesn't downplay what I mention above.

I totally reject the notion that "moderating" our speech here will improve the image of "our Lord Jesus Christ, who we represent."  Most carpenters don't respect mealy mouthed pencil pushers telling them they are uncivilized, because they like to ride motorcycles and shoot guns.  Jesus was this type of guy.  Afterall, He was a carpenter from Nazareth, which is like saying He was from Kingman Arizona, or Tyler Texas, or something like that.  He wasn't a Harvard grad, and He didn't get seasick either.  He was a real man.

If anything, issuing statements like the one you did HURTS Christ's image If we took you seriously, then  only castrated, polite, passive, non-violent men could represent Christ. He was nothing like that, at all.  Like C.S. Lewis says, regarding Aslan;  "Afterall, He is not a tame lion."

So, your statement, in which you assure me that the only image you are concerned about is "our Lord Jesus Christ," strikes me as being full of hot, perfumed, spring scented de-oderized air.  It comes off as overly pious, and rank with the gentle disdain of a person who is too worried about how others perceive their spirituality.  It also suggests that those who disagree with you aren't as concerned for "our Lord Jesus Christ."  I think it's a substantial amount of postmasticated bovine ruminate.

Bottom line?  Let people say what they want, and mean what they say.  That way we know who they are, and they know who we are.  I'd rather have 100 David Mauldins here, than 2 passive combed hair, popular-author's-workbook sunday school types.

Stand up and say what you mean, and let others do the same.  No editing or deleting, unless it gets really, really bad.  Leave that up to Tom, Mark and Brian.

Brent

On Edit, P.S.

Al, I'm not going to pray for you much.  I will a little, I promise.  However, I know that in a short amount of time I'll be worrying about other stuff.  So don't count on my prayers to help you snap out of it.  Instead of some impotent prayer, I'll do what I think will help more.  I'll tell you straight.  You did ask for it, so take it as an answer to prayer.  I'm not aware of a time when prayer completed a homework asignment, or mowed the lawn.  In the same way, I'm not sold on the idea that praying for you, and neglecting to slap you upside the head when needed is an effective, loving thing to do.

Eat some red meat and clear your mind.

[vernecarty]

We need one of the neutralizers.

Marcia

Er...that would be a N-E-U-R-A-L-I-Z-E-R, I think...
Verne

[moonflower2]

Jesus, if He were born into our age, would have been a guy who used power tools, sweated, and ate off the roach coach more often than not.  He was a carpenter, right?  He had sawdust in His hair, and smelled like sweat and dirt.  Furthermore, He must have heard plenty of choice language, as construction guys have always been that way.  People who do hard work, especially for those who would rather pay than sweat, have always had this kind of man's man attitude.  Have you ever spent any time on a job site with a framing crew? 

So, if you want to present a combed hair, mild speeched, image conscious Jesus, you will run into trouble.  He wasn't that sort of guy at all.  He knew how to use physical violence when needed, and He also verbally cursed the namby pamby image conscious pharisees.  He also stated opinions that were contrary to the conventional wisdom, and ridiculed His opposition at times.

Yes, He was also meek, lowly and compassionate, but that doesn't downplay what I mention above.

I totally reject the notion that "moderating" our speech here will improve the image of "our Lord Jesus Christ, who we represent."  Most carpenters don't respect mealy mouthed pencil pushers telling them they are uncivilized, because they like to ride motorcycles and shoot guns.  Jesus was this type of guy.  Afterall, He was a carpenter from Nazareth, which is like saying He was from Kingman Arizona, or Tyler Texas, or something like that.  He wasn't a Harvard grad, and He didn't get seasick either. 

He was a real man.

Brent

I wonder if their robes had pockets for their Marlboro's, unless Lydia stiched purple t-shirts with sleves for rolling up the packs, while they worked.  


BRENT'S REPLY TO MY PURPLE T-SHIRT RESPONSE ABOVE (How did you do this?):
Pretty funny!  Nevertheless, I wonder about stuff like that.  He did make really awesome wine.  I've learned a few things about wine, living in wine country as I do.  One of them is that really good red wine has a high alchohol content.  Makes you wonder about what kind of wine Jesus made?

Anyhow, I really think that the milktoast, wuss image that is portrayed of Christ and christian men is pathetic.

Brent

[al Hartman]

  ...You take this, and yourself WAY, WAY too seriously.

   ...If anything, issuing statements like the one you did HURTS Christ's image If we took you seriously, then  only castrated, polite, passive, non-violent men could represent Christ. He was nothing like that, at all.  Like C.S. Lewis says, regarding Aslan;  "Afterall, He is not a tame lion."

   ...So, your statement, in which you assure me that the only image you are concerned about is "our Lord Jesus Christ," strikes me as being full of hot, perfumed, spring scented de-oderized air.  It comes off as overly pious, and rank with the gentle disdain of a person who is too worried about how others perceive their spirituality.  It also suggests that those who disagree with you aren't as concerned for "our Lord Jesus Christ."  I think it's a substantial amount of postmasticated bovine ruminate.

   ...Bottom line?  Let people say what they want, and mean what they say.  That way we know who they are, and they know who we are.  I'd rather have 100 David Mauldins here, than 2 passive combed hair, popular-author's-workbook sunday school types.

   ...Stand up and say what you mean, and let others do the same.  No editing or deleting, unless it gets really, really bad.  Leave that up to Tom, Mark and Brian.

   ...Al, I'm not going to pray for you much.  I will a little, I promise.  However, I know that in a short amount of time I'll be worrying about other stuff.  So don't count on my prayers to help you snap out of it.  Instead of some impotent prayer, I'll do what I think will help more.  I'll tell you straight.  You did ask for it, so take it as an answer to prayer.  I'm not aware of a time when prayer completed a homework asignment, or mowed the lawn.  In the same way, I'm not sold on the idea that praying for you, and neglecting to slap you upside the head when needed is an effective, loving thing to do.

Eat some red meat and clear your mind.

Brent,

     Thank you-- point(s) taken.  I appreciate your honesty (presuming that you are serious, and I am not just misinterpreting some of your "irony" ).  I have little to say in response, the emphases if not the spirit of your post being pretty much on the money (with the exception that what you interpret as castration is simply the exercise of reserve).

     Upon your confession of being a worrier who considers his own prayers "impotent" in spite of all the positive we are taught about prayer in the scriptures, I happily release you from any obligation to pray for me, as it would be to no purpose.

     I certainly do, gratefully, take your post as an answer to my own prayer.  It has already begun to help me.  I have never asked nor expected to be spared a "slap upside the head" or a sound shaking, whether or not it is deserved (in this case I warrant it was deserved).  If God is for us, we need not fear what man may do to us.  
     Besides, as you point out, it gives everyone the opportunity to "know who you are"-- we are always in need of examples to show us how "real men" are to behave, as outlined in the book of... er... ah... Brent?  All those Bible  passages about kindness, meekness, gentleness, longsuffering, etc. are no doubt just there to occupy the minds of those who lack the chutzpah to fulfill the great commission to go into all the world and exude tough love. ***IRONY ALERT!!!
Marcia and all,

     Your commentary re: my LBness is still invited.  Don't worry about my answering you as above-- that was in response to special invitation.

     My personal opinion of being an LB:  In my own case, it was WB (Wanna Be).  I was never a "certified" LB, but always on probation, to see if I could develop into a "real" LB.  There were many bros who were in the WB category even though they were not in the LB inner circle.  The competition never ended to get accepted into the elite.  Many never made it, for a strange variety of reasons, and some no doubt became bitter and jealous over the issue.
     LBs were constantly under the gun, and although (at least in my day) I think most if not all had a genuine desire to serve Christ, we seldom if ever had the combination of time and energy to seriously consider what that might mean beyond the parameters of serving the ministry.  It was, at least for me, a hellish existence in which I felt trapped.
     Nonetheless, I was fully engaged in the Geftakys political structure, and guilty of all manner of wrongness and sin against God's people.  It surely left a mark, and any help you can provide me in getting rid of that will be appreciated.

In Christ,
al

[editor]

Brent,

     Thank you-- point(s) taken.  I appreciate your honesty (presuming that you are serious, and I am not just misinterpreting some of your "irony" ).  I have little to say in response, the emphases if not the spirit of your post being pretty much on the money (with the exception that what you interpret as castration is simply the exercise of reserve).

     Upon your confession of being a worrier who considers his own prayers "impotent" in spite of all the positive we are taught about prayer in the scriptures, I happily release you from any obligation to pray for me, as it would be to no purpose.

     I certainly do, gratefully, take your post as an answer to my own prayer.  It has already begun to help me.  I have never asked nor expected to be spared a "slap upside the head" or a sound shaking, whether or not it is deserved (in this case I warrant it was deserved).  If God is for us, we need not fear what man may do to us.  
     Besides, as you point out, it gives everyone the opportunity to "know who you are"-- we are always in need of examples to show us how "real men" are to behave, as outlined in the book of... er... ah... Brent?  All those Bible  passages about kindness, meekness, gentleness, longsuffering, etc. are no doubt just there to occupy the minds of those who lack the chutzpah to fulfill the great commission to go into all the world and exude tough love. ***IRONY ALERT!!!
Marcia and all,

     Your commentary re: my LBness is still invited.  Don't worry about my answering you as above-- that was in response to special invitation.

     My personal opinion of being an LB:  In my own case, it was WB (Wanna Be).  I was never a "certified" LB, but always on probation, to see if I could develop into a "real" LB.  There were many bros who were in the WB category even though they were not in the LB inner circle.  The competition never ended to get accepted into the elite.  Many never made it, for a strange variety of reasons, and some no doubt became bitter and jealous over the issue.
     LBs were constantly under the gun, and although (at least in my day) I think most if not all had a genuine desire to serve Christ, we seldom if ever had the combination of time and energy to seriously consider what that might mean beyond the parameters of serving the ministry.  It was, at least for me, a hellish existence in which I felt trapped.
     Nonetheless, I was fully engaged in the Geftakys political structure, and guilty of all manner of wrongness and sin against God's people.  It surely left a mark, and any help you can provide me in getting rid of that will be appreciated.

In Christ,
al

this is progress Al.

Keep it up.  Also, just for clarification, I never said my prayers were impotent.  I merely pointed out the fact that prayer for "this" was impotent.  Shall we edit or delete people's words in order to keep up Christ's image?  Do you stand by your earlier ideas, or do you sidestep them in order to weakly protest my definition of "real men," and the "spirit" of my post?

You're almost there, don't stop now.

Brent

[al Hartman]

this is progress Al.

Keep it up.  Also, just for clarification, I never said my prayers were impotent.  I merely pointed out the fact that prayer for "this" was impotent.  Shall we edit or delete people's words in order to keep up Christ's image?  Do you stand by your earlier ideas, or do you sidestep them in order to weakly protest my definition of "real men," and the "spirit" of my post?

You're almost there, don't stop now.

Brent

Brent,

Your condescension is truly touching (NOT).  If I had any idea what your latest post is supposed to mean, I might attempt to reply to it.  My post was an honest statement of my views, not meant to be a point-for-point, tit-for-tat rebuttal.  You had touched on some serious matters in a way that I needed to hear, and I am grateful to God for it.  But I don't agree with your general ideas of what Christian life is all about, and have no intention of debating you on that stage.

You said "I never said my prayers were impotent.  I merely pointed out the fact that prayer for 'this' was impotent."  Your idea and mine of what "this" is must be poles apart.

You also said "Do you stand by your earlier ideas, or do you sidestep them in order to weakly protest my definition of 'real men,' and the 'spirit' of my post?"  I don't know to which "earlier ideas" you refer.  If you will state specific questions, I will attempt to answer appropriately, but I see no purpose to rehashing everything I've said on this thread in hopes of saying whatever it is you want to hear.  As for "real men" and the spirit of your post, I said what I meant & meant what I said (ironically a phrase I recall GG enjoying frequent use of)-- If you consider my statements weak, ask me what you want to know & I'll try to provide a reasonable response.  I hope to have got beyond rising to the bait of a vague "Stand forth and give account for yourself."

Your application of "Shall we edit or delete people's words in order to keep up Christ's image?" eludes me completely-- to what does it refer?

In Christ,
al

P.S.-- If any of us are going to edit or delete at any time for any reason, then saying we will not is a bold-face lie.

P.S.#2-- Your "postmasticated bovine ruminate" is a literary jewel!  If it is copyrighted, I hereby request your permission to use it occasionally!

[editor]

Your condescension is truly touching (NOT).  If I had any idea what your latest post is supposed to mean, I might attempt to reply to it.  My post was an honest statement of my views, not meant to be a point-for-point, tit-for-tat rebuttal.  You had touched on some serious matters in a way that I needed to hear, and I am grateful to God for it.  But I don't agree with your general ideas of what Christian life is all about, and have no intention of debating you on that stage

Al,

You're an idiot.  You know what I'm talking about, and I know that you know that I know that you know what I'm talking about.  Don't play dumb.

Also, you're hardly grateful for the "serious" matters I brought up.  Don't pretend piety, it's sickening.  The fact is you don't like what I said, or is it that you don't understand it?  Either way, don't act all spiritual about it. 

You try to sound so lofty and erudite, but it doesn't work.  Also, it's not a Bold faced lie, about editing and deleting.  There is a user agreement, is there not?

Just be honest, Al.  Quit trying to play the part with posts, of all things.  It's a BB, that's all.

You most certainly do not have my permission to use my clever Bovine byproduct phrase.

Brent 

[vernecarty]

I don' t want to meddle, but I am going to repeat something  said on the BB awihile back.
The minute you begin to take yourself more seriously than other people do, you are in trouble.
We have seen quite a few examples of this recently.
I got an e-mail from somebody chastising me for claiming in a post that just because I said I carried a feather in private (as opposed to a sledge-hammer in public) did not mean I was a "girlie-man".
You will remember the context of that particular charge.
I PMd the individual and said for heaven's sake, it was a joke!.
 I got a message back informing me that by saying that I had insulted this person's intelligence!
At that point I gave up...can't win...
Verne

[M2]

....
Marcia and all,

     Your commentary re: my LBness is still invited.  Don't worry about my answering you as above-- that was in response to special invitation.

     My personal opinion of being an LB:  In my own case, it was WB (Wanna Be).  I was never a "certified" LB, but always on probation, to see if I could develop into a "real" LB.  There were many bros who were in the WB category even though they were not in the LB inner circle.  The competition never ended to get accepted into the elite.  Many never made it, for a strange variety of reasons, and some no doubt became bitter and jealous over the issue.
     LBs were constantly under the gun, and although (at least in my day) I think most if not all had a genuine desire to serve Christ, we seldom if ever had the combination of time and energy to seriously consider what that might mean beyond the parameters of serving the ministry.  It was, at least for me, a hellish existence in which I felt trapped.
     Nonetheless, I was fully engaged in the Geftakys political structure, and guilty of all manner of wrongness and sin against God's people.  It surely left a mark, and any help you can provide me in getting rid of that will be appreciated.

In Christ,
al

This is the first time that you have said that you were "'never a "certified" LB'.  This quote and many other references, ie the fact that you had a 'training home' led me to believe otherwise.

...  I can only speak for myself on this matter.  I know that I was sincere in all my prayer, both private and public.  I believed that I was praying about the things God wanted me to pray about.
     But as a worker and an LB, I learned to phrase my public prayers in a manner that would not get me raked over the coals in some inner-circle meeting thereafter.  It happened.

al

Brent has explained it Brent-style, and there really isn't anything to add.

In the past at least a couple of other posters have mentioned that when you make comments like "Christ is the answer" it doesn't really help with the discussion.

Also your worry about details and concern that we will fall away from the Lord if we discuss certain topics is what I was referring to re. LBisms.  It might help if you explained to us "adults" why &/or what rather than just tell us "don't do that brethren".  Let us make up our own minds.

Hope that helps.
Marcia